What did Bacon mean by "Idols of the Theater"?

GrimoireA3 wrote: Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?

Nope.

Idola theatri (singular Idolum theatri) is a type of tendency towards logical fallacy or error, normally translated as "Idols of the Theatre." The Latin was coined by Sir Francis Bacon in his Novum Organum—one of the earliest treatises arguing the case for the logic and method of modern science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idola_theatri

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace.

Idols of the Marketplace are errors arising from the false significance bestowed upon words, and in this classification Bacon anticipated the modern science of semantics. According to him it is the popular belief that men form their thoughts into words in order to communicate their opinions to others, but often words arise as substitutes for thoughts and men think they have won an argument because they have out talked their opponents. The constant impact of words variously used without attention to their true meaning only in turn condition the understanding and breed fallacies. Words often betray their own purpose, obscuring the very thoughts they are designed to express.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

coach wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus? Nope. Idola theatri (singular Idolum theatri) is a type of tendency towards logical fallacy or error, normally translated as "Idols of the Theatre." The Latin was coined by Sir Francis Bacon in his Novum Organum—one of the earliest treatises arguing the case for the logic and method of modern science. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idola_theatri Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world. http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace. Idols of the Marketplace are errors arising from the false significance bestowed upon words, and in this classification Bacon anticipated the modern science of semantics. According to him it is the popular belief that men form their thoughts into words in order to communicate their opinions to others, but often words arise as substitutes for thoughts and men think they have won an argument because they have out talked their opponents. The constant impact of words variously used without attention to their true meaning only in turn condition the understanding and breed fallacies. Words often betray their own purpose, obscuring the very thoughts they are designed to express. http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

What part of "nope" and "Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace" did you not understand?

Edited by coach - August/31/2016 at 12:12pm

GrimoireA3 wrote: ...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.

Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.

GrimoireA3 wrote: coach wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: ...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you. Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum. You're welcome. In other words, you don't know?

You're still trolling...

Edited by coach - September/01/2016 at 9:24am

GrimoireA3 wrote: No I am discussing.  ...But none of this was mentioned in answer to my topic question.  Why?  Again, gentlemen if you don't understand the question or don't know the answer to the question - just admit it.

Enjoy the silence. Trolling is not what I want to support. You're no longer worth commenting on.

droche wrote: ...I would like to know how it relates to Freemasonry, if at all.

Two phrases apply:

1) Because Tradition
2) Because Grand Lodge

GrimoireA3 wrote: Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?

Now that other forum members here sees your question for what it is, I'll make my reply. .... You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling!    ... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.   ... Again that is Trolling.


Edited by edwmax - September/02/2016 at 8:37am

edwmax wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus? edwmax wrote: You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling! The question was: "WHAT DID BACON MEAN BY 'IDOLS OF THE THEATER'? The follow up was: "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?" And neither of these valid questions were answered!!! Not trolling. I have no reason to troll. [QUOTE=edwmax]... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.

NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.




Again, I have no reason to troll. In the past three years not once has any question I've asked been ignored or not answered. The problem is with pseudo-intellectual posturing and circumlocutions passing for truth - which I have been trained to analyze and expose and correct - and I cannot suffer in the middle of a discussion.


P.S.: Is there anyway these posts can be numbered? So other posts may be cited?

 I am trying to keep this thread on track, perhaps naively so, and I want to learn about Bacon's "Idols of the Theater." I've asked for some context about the term. Let me put it in another way: Can someone give a real world example?

I asked how it might relate to Freemasonry, if at all. I received the answer:  

Two phrases apply:

1) Because Tradition
2) Because Grand Lodge

I don't understand that answer.

Perhaps because I am not on as high an intellectual level as others, I cannot understand any of this. It's like I'm trying to find my way through a thick fog.

The question was asked, "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?"

Bogus to me means fake, but fake in a misleading way. Plays, acts and acting are inherently fake but not all are meant to mislead so no, according to my definition of "bogus.," they are not.

From what has been said here about Idols of the Theater, it is a fallacy of logic that creeps in having an adverse effect on scientific methods. How does that relate to plays, acts and acting? The fog thickens.

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.

I think I am beginning to understand. A real world example would help.

I would also like to ask, Grimoire, why did you ask the question in the first place? Did you have something specific in mind? 

droche wrote: I would also like to ask, Grimoire, why did you ask the question in the first place? Did you have something specific in mind?

Hi droche,

Thanks for this request.

In a previous thread Coach used the term 'Idols of the Marketplace' in a manner in which I did not understand. Coach has a strong tendency for being 'out of context' and for 'non sequiturs'.

So I researched Idols of the Marketplace, and there were three more 'Idols' included. I am very familiar with Sir Francis Bacon, and I am familiar with his works. 

'Idols of the Theater' confused me since it read as if Bacon were ridiculing 'theater' as bunk. I've read something similar from the 17th century critics of Shakespeare and of actors.

So quick as a bunny I posed this question on a new topic - "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater?'" in hopes of a clear explanation from the source which produced the expression in the first place.

But why is a simple question generating confusion?

coach wrote: droche wrote: ... How does that relate to plays, acts and acting? The fog thickens. coach wrote: The fog is think because theater in the context that S.F. Bacon used it doesn't relate to plays, acts and acting. O.K., here is the point where a clear explanation is appropriate. coach wrote: The poster decided to post a question that was a play on words and in doing so, spread a think layer of fog on any effort to make sense of what theater was actually being alluded to by S.F. Bacon. Paranoia . It's a bogus question with only one worthwhile response: Nope. As it relates to Freemasonry, too much is done in the name of tradition or because GL said so and very few dare to question well-established dogma that should if we were indeed practicing a progressive science.

GrimoireA3 wrote: .... The question was: "WHAT DID BACON MEAN BY 'IDOLS OF THE THEATER'? The follow up was: "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?" And neither of these valid questions were answered!!! Not trolling. I have no reason to troll. ....

No where in the above quote post have you cited any reference to Bacon's writings whereby the context of his usage of the terms maybe understood.    I, for one, will not research ALL of Bacon's writings to fine said terms.   

GrimoireA3 wrote: .... edwmax wrote: ... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols. NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling. ....

I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements 

GrimoireA3 wrote: .... No I am discussing.  And Wikipedia is not a legitimate source for an answer to a concept.  So I went to Amazon.com and received the answer I was hoping to get from Mastermason.com forums where stodgy Baconian empiricism 'Idols' was first mentioned.  Sir Francis Bacon was more empirical than Hume (if that is possible) which is as dangerous as dogmatism.  But I had to go somewhere else to read both positive and negative comments on Baconian Idolotry (which has very little to do with debate, and more on the scientific method as a comment on the syllogism as found in Aristotle's ORGANON). ...

....

edwmax wrote: I will not do research work for you. I have other things to do.

Me too! It's interesting how GrimoireA3 wants us to cooperate with his efforts to evade doing the Work. He might perfectly fit in a Lodge where entitlements are the order of the day.

Grimoire, you did mention a few posts back that you were looking for an answer about Idols of the Theater from "real" Freemasons. (I am paraphrasing.) I personally enjoy the thoughts and discussions you bring to this forum (but not the pi**ing contests some of them seem to generate), but you need to know that things like Francis Bacon and Idols of the Theater are not part of Masonry. Masonry, in and of itself, does not get into such deep philosophy. Most Masons are the typical, average person who won't know the details of the Francis Bacons or what have you. If brought up, most Masons would have an interest in learning something of such things, but they are not going to delve into them like a researcher or scholar. To be sure, there are some Masons who delve into deep philosophies, but if you have a question about such a thing, and think, gee, I'll bet a Mason could answer this... Chances are he can't and would not be expected to.

I know you spend a lot of time at BPL where there is a tremendous amount of scholarly information about Freemasonry and that is fine, but don't expect your everyday run-of-the-mill Mason to be on that level. Masonry encourages love of learning of all types but most Masons work, have families and Masonic responsibilities, which is just as important to Freemasonry. Scholarly matters just aren't within the grasp of most of us. No offense intended, I know you want to know about real Freemasonry. What I have just described is about as real as it gets. This is just an opinion, of course.

edwmax wrote: No where in the above quote post have you cited any reference to Bacon's writings whereby the context of his usage of the terms maybe understood.

The subject of Baconian Idolotry was not brought up by me in the first place, it was brought up by a Freemason (COACH) as a counter argument.

edwmax wrote:    I, for one, will not research ALL of Bacon's writings to fine said terms.

You don't have to. Just simply answer the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'? And if you don't know, just say so. Why all this confusion over a simple question??? And how is a simple question to a subject first brought up by a Freemason [COACH] trolling????   

edwmax wrote: ... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.

Then let me correct your misconception. I started a new thread as to not cause another digression within my original thread as started by Coach's answer to my response. I was, and still am, confused by Coach's use of Bacon's 'Idols' to refute my initial statement. It made no sense to me. So again I ask the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? - since I am a big fan of theater!

NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.
....  [/QUOTE]

edwmax wrote: I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements

What discussion "outside of the MasterMason.com forums" did I make? Every discussion I've made has been done within MasterMason.com forums?! 

coach wrote: edwmax wrote: I will not do research work for you. I have other things to do. Me too! It's interesting how GrimoireA3 wants us to cooperate with his efforts to evade doing the Work. He might perfectly fit in a Lodge where entitlements are the order of the day.

Interesting how a Mason with a B.S. in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity cannot answer a simple question? That question being "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'??

Since it was Coach who first brought up the subject of Baconian Idolatry (out of context) in the first place??? Coach, why are you redirecting the blame of an intelligent question to the readers???

GrimoireA3 wrote: Why would any simple question generate any {quote}"pi**ing contest"{unquote} in the first place?????

Well, for starters, you've been pretty pissy and perhaps we are merely following your lead.

GrimoireA3 wrote: I am asking the exact same questions I would ask in a college lecture hall to my professor AND if I were a Freemason - the exact same questions in a lodge to a Worshipful Master.

Man are you delusional. You have no idea what we do in lodge.

GrimoireA3 wrote: Yet there is one Freemason on this forum who specializes in cant and sophistry and generates a causuical stress on every answer he gives.

Survey says it's...

GrimoireA3 wrote: Yet it was a Freemason who mentioned Bacon's 'Idols of the Market Place' in the first place. It was my own research that discovered three other Baconian 'Idols'. If Baconian Idolatry has nothing to do with Freemasonry, why did a Freemason quote Bacon as if there were no connection?

Perhaps it was simply germane to the conversation.

GrimoireA3 wrote: O.K. - so why did a Freemason (COACH) bring it up to prove his point as a counter argument??????

Perhaps it was not a counterpoint at all. Perhaps it was merely food for thought.   

GrimoireA3 wrote: All COACH did was pique my interest.

AWESOME!!!!!

GrimoireA3 wrote: Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy.

No. It truly doesn't. You've been drinking far too much Kool-Aid.

GrimoireA3 wrote: Which is what attracts me to Masonry.

I hope you realize by now that "Freemasonry" and "Masonry" are two entirely different things.

GrimoireA3 wrote: Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read (including Dr. Nagy's series).

And you still think that "Freemasonry" and "Masonry" are the same thing? You might want to reread "Building Perpends" and "The Craft Unmasked!" a few more times.

GrimoireA3 wrote: As I've discovered to my disappointment on Mastermasons.com forums.

Just here?

GrimoireA3 wrote: Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place???

Yep. Even if we do.

GrimoireA3 wrote: What about all the required reading to become a Mason??

What required reading? The Petition?

GrimoireA3 wrote: Even if its their own "opinion"??

Yep. Most of it is.

GrimoireA3 wrote: Interesting how a Mason with a B.S. in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity cannot answer a simple question?

You've truly screwed up royally here, once again.

GrimoireA3 wrote: That question being "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'??

You appear to be consistently dissatisfied no matter what the response. Apparently you believe whining will change this. Have you considered checking out and participating in a 12 step codependent recovery program? Perhaps you'd be better off going somewhere else where you'd find more satisfaction and where whining actually does change others behaviors to your will.

GrimoireA3 wrote: Since it was Coach who first brought up the subject of Baconian Idolatry (out of context) in the first place???

LOL! Out of context... too funny...

GrimoireA3 wrote: Coach, why are you redirecting the blame of an intelligent question to the readers???

It appears that you still don't understand the agenda. You're making every effort to change the other posters by complaining. Life does not work that way when you come across as you have. Perhaps you simply do not fit in.

Grimoire,

droche wrote: Actually, Grimoire brings up a good point. We really do need to impart to our members the deeper philosophical aspects to our Craft in places like Blue Lodges and Lodges of Instruction, but not to the extent that he thinks we already have.

This would be good topic for a Lodges of Research.   In my district, most Lodges do not present any type of 'education' in Lodge.   Most members would not be interested in the above topic or like topics in the Lodge.  The Lodges open, conduct business, and close. Some (err) - too times all within 20 minutes.   ... Lodges of Instruction deal with & teach the GL's uniform works only.

Apparently Mr. Grimoire (french usage) has difficulty understanding the true simple nature of Freemasonry and due to his "Idols of the Cave" continue to believe there exist mystical & magic hidden within Freemasonry.

coach wrote: The illusions many have about Freemasonry are classically acted out by Mr. Walker (Grimoire). As much as I love the romantic aspect of Freemasonry, the cold hard reality that is experienced continuously tells me that the deeper philosophical aspects so yearned for by many shall not be realized in any lodge save for a very few and even then, only briefly once it is realized that the very structure of Freemasonry simply will not support it. To implement such a focus would mean retooling what a Lodge does.

I agree Bro. N. This is my opinion: The Lodge has a very simple and important function, to put on the degrees. Granted it's a bit more than that but basically just that. The other work is done by individuals who take the time to explore what the ritual (degree) has in it or what it means to them. Yes there are some agreed upon things but it's very much an individual journey.

droche wrote: I don't know that the whole structure of the lodge needs to be changed to put more emphasis on the philosophical aspects. The following are the subjects of the Lodge of Instruction in my district for the next six months and are similar to those discussed for many years: Budgeting Prioritizing Conflict Resolution Project Management Effective Communication What Motivates People ....

Those are elements of Leadership, which is taught by our annual Leadership Conference.  This is the third year of the Conference.  Many of our Lodge officers move into the East and have no idea how to do any of those Leadership functions.

 Our Custodians are authorized to hold 'Schools of Instructions'.     The Schools of Instructions covers Opening & Closing the Lodge; reception of the GM or DDGM; All 3 degrees, word for word from the Coded cipher, with correct steps & movements.    ... This is the GL of Georgia and might differ some in other GLs.

coach wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: coach wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: ...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you. Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum. You're welcome. In other words, you don't know? You're still trolling...

And you're still avoiding.