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We are not all brothers

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AaronSawyer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2014 at 2:37pm
Ozzie - What makes you think there was in existence a pre-1717 ritual?  Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2014 at 6:56pm
>What makes you think there was in existence a pre-1717 ritual?

Even if we assume that Masonry comes out of stone masons guilds (if any existed in England) we must ignore the history of the Antient lodges to accept standard Masonic history.

Anyway here is a start for those interested in the approach of the self-proclaimed "authentic school" of Masonic history.


"There is several words and signs of a free mason to be revealed to you . . . ‘ ‘Several words and signs . . .’plural, more than one degree. And here in a document that should have been dated 1550, we have the first hint of the expansion of the ceremonies into more than one degree. A few years later we have actual minutes that prove two degrees in practice."

http://freemasoninformation.com/masonic-education/history/600-years-of-craft-ritual/

"Freemasonry was so well-established in England by the 16th century that a well-documented schism in 1567 is on record. The schism divided English Freemasons into two major factions: the “York” and “London” Masons. "  

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/godseden/godseden10.htm


Meanwhile some Masonic historians have moved on from the "authentic" approach of relying on lodge minute books and have been considering the content of Masonic ritual and how that relates to more ancient ritual.  It turns out there are many detailed correspondences with several ancient traditions.  How did stone masons know such things?




Edited by Ozzie - October/08/2014 at 6:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 5:38am
Your comment is so dis-joined it is hard to follow a coherent thought.

First: ... no one said there wasn't a ritual before 1717;  but that before 1700 it was very simplistic and basic for the operative stone mason.   ... further, you imply that Stone mason guilds did not exist in England (you words 'if any exist'). this is completely illogical since they were the ones that built the great Gothic cathedrals.     ... You further state " we must ignore the history of the Antient lodges".  What antient lodge do you refer?  There were none other than the operative lodges of the Stone mason guilds.

ALL of your statements are completely contrary to the very reference you give: " 600 Years of Craft Ritual" by Herny Carr.

Next, your quote about the 1567 'well documented' schism from 'The Gods of Eden' is so out of context to imply there was a schism within Freemasonry.   There was not!  The 1567 English schism was political and later gave reason for Speculative Masons (London Masons) to separate from the Operative Masons (York Masons).   
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 6:13am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Your comment is so dis-joined it is hard to follow a coherent thought.

First: ... no one said there wasn't a ritual before 1717;


Perhaps you might like to read the post to which I was responding:

Quote Ozzie - What makes you think that there was in existence a pre-1717 ritual?



Quote
 but that before 1700 it was very simplistic and basic for the operative stone mason.   ... further, you imply that Stone mason guilds did not exist in England (you words 'if any exist'). this is completely illogical since they were the ones that built the great Gothic cathedrals. 


It may be illogical but stone masons can work without guilds. 

"Freemasonry did not evolve from the medieval guilds of stonemasons in Britain because it would appear that there were no medieval guilds of stonemasons in Britain. " 

http://www.jcs-group.com/enigma/masonic/stonemason.html

Quote
   ... You further state " we must ignore the history of the Antient lodges".  What antient lodge do you refer?  There were none other than the operative lodges of the Stone mason guilds. 



"Throughout the early years of the new Grand Lodge there were any number of Masons and lodges that never affiliated with the new Grand Lodge. These unaffiliated Masons and their Lodges were referred to as "Old Masons", or "St. John Masons", and "St. John Lodges".

..................

On 17 July 1751, representatives of five Lodges gathered at the Turk's Head Tavern, in Greek Street, Soho, London and formed a rival Grand Lodge – "The Grand Lodge of England According to the Old Institutions". They considered that they practiced a more ancient and therefore purer form of Masonry, and called their Grand Lodge The Ancients' Grand Lodge. They called those affiliated to the Premier Grand Lodge, by the pejorative epithet The Moderns. These two unofficial names stuck

...............

In 1809 the Moderns appointed a "Lodge of Promulgation" to return their own ritual to regularity with Scotland, Ireland and especially the Ancients. In 1811 both Grand Lodges appointed Commissioners and over the next two years, articles of Union were negotiated and agreed. In January 1813 the Duke of Sussex became Grand Master of the Moderns on the resignation of his brother, the Prince Regent, and in December of that year another brother, Duke of Kent became Grand Master of the Antients. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Grand_Lodge_of_England

I suspect that much of US Masonry was established before the Moderns returned their ritual to regularity with the Antients.

edwmax, I seem to have offended you.  That was not my intention.  I just have an interest in unofficial history.




Edited by Ozzie - October/09/2014 at 6:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyksos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 6:45am
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"Freemasonry did not evolve from the medieval guilds of stonemasons in Britain because it would appear that there were no medieval guilds of stonemasons in Britain. " 

http://www.jcs-group.com/enigma/masonic/stonemason.html


  
Explain then Halliwell Manuscript then? Also known as the Regium Poem.

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/regius.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 4:42pm

The presence of a set of articles demonstrates there was a code of conduct for some stone masons. 

It does not seem to me to prove that in the following centuries there were stone masons guilds in England.  Surely these guilds would have left some documentary records?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

   ...

It may be illogical but stone masons can work without guilds. 

"Freemasonry did not evolve from the medieval guilds of stonemasons in Britain because it would appear that there were no medieval guilds of stonemasons in Britain. "   ...


Believe what you will ... but your statements are not supported by the facts.   And, the very reference you gave above (" 600 Years of Craft Ritual" by Herny Carr) clearly indicates speculative Freemasonry came from the opertive Stone mason Lodges (companies/guilds).




Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

 
Quote
   ... You further state " we must ignore the history of the Antient lodges".  What antient lodge do you refer?  There were none other than the operative lodges of the Stone mason guilds. 



"Throughout the early years of the new Grand Lodge there were any number of Masons and lodges that never affiliated with the new Grand Lodge. These unaffiliated Masons and their Lodges were referred to as "Old Masons", or "St. John Masons", and "St. John Lodges".

..................

On 17 July 1751, representatives of five Lodges gathered at the Turk's Head Tavern, in Greek Street, Soho, London and formed a rival Grand Lodge – "The Grand Lodge of England According to the Old Institutions". They considered that they practiced a more ancient and therefore purer form of Masonry, and called their Grand Lodge The Ancients' Grand Lodge. They called those affiliated to the Premier Grand Lodge, by the pejorative epithet The Moderns. These two unofficial names stuck

............... 


NOT relevant to the discussion.

Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

    ... In 1809 the Moderns appointed a "Lodge of Promulgation" to return their own ritual to regularity with Scotland, Ireland and especially the Ancients. In 1811 both Grand Lodges appointed Commissioners and over the next two years, articles of Union were negotiated and agreed. In January 1813 the Duke of Sussex became Grand Master of the Moderns on the resignation of his brother, the Prince Regent, and in December of that year another brother, Duke of Kent became Grand Master of the Antients. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Grand_Lodge_of_England

    It was more like making the Ritual of BOTH GLs  regular with EACH OTHER.   The big difference was the Royal Arch degrees which was separated from the 3 craft degrees of the Anceints.  This separation was insisted on by the GL of England (Moderns).      ref: http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/england_grand_lodge.html




Edited by edwmax - October/10/2014 at 10:23am
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





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