Mastermason.com Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Forum Lounge (off-topic & lighter discussions) > General Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - How Do We Make Good Men Better?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

How Do We Make Good Men Better?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
ouija21 View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: October/21/2014
Location: Alaska
Status: Offline
Points: 13
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ouija21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Do We Make Good Men Better?
    Posted: November/06/2014 at 10:49pm
To make a good man a better one it begins with one's self. The allegory and rituals performed have many meanings to help you reach that goal. Yet if a man joins for anything other then becoming better then he will find difficulties but could still break through . I liken it to any vice or superfluity one has. If one says "I will stop smoking soon to improve my heath" will they? Perhaps but they still have it. Now if one says "I am finished with smoking to improve myself and inspire others" and truly stop. Ah their is the answer. Ask not how Masonry can make good men better. Yet does the man joining desire to be better? & if so then in my opinion they will find it indeed. Great question and I must say my opinion by no means speaks for anyone or in any way means to undermine you or anyone. It is a very deep question and I would like to sum it up with thus... Know Thyself
fm wnc cm yu?
Back to Top
dhoward575 View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: November/01/2014
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dhoward575 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2014 at 8:31pm
I'm a fairly new MM, but I am an active member of our lodge. I also have the privilege (due to my work and travel) of being able to visit other lodges around the state and also a few across state lines. And believe me this topic is discussed at every lodge to some extent or another.

I can tell you that we have definitely been discussing it in lodge especially amongst the leadership. I live in a small to medium size city in southern Alabama. We have around 25 lodges within a 50 mile radius. Some are older lodges and some are fairly new. My home lodge is the newest in the area. We will be celebrating our 50th next year.

One of the allures of Freemasonry is the tradition whether it is in the ceremonies and rituals or just in the history handed down from generation to generation. But unless we start engaging our members (as another brother stated) then what we are left with is a few core members who eventually age and pass on with very little or no "new blood" left to revitalize the lodge. We have to find a balance between tradition and progress. Things like a maintained lodge website can help attract younger members since they are definitely part of the electronic age.

Also, the younger generation is very much into validity. Meaning what is the purpose of the fraternity. If the lodge meets once or twice a month only to sit and idly chat over coffee for an hour then move into open lodge to discuss business and bills then where is the purpose. We have to start showing up in the community even if it's just sponsoring things like blood drives. We have to start reaching out to those around us instead of just being contained within the brotherhood. Maybe then people will see a little truth about who we are and peak some interest. And maybe the newer members will find some purpose in their journey.

Just my opinions.
Bro. Howard
2014 Sr. Steward & Webmaster
H. E. Palmes Lodge #917
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Banned
Banned


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2014 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by clamman clamman wrote:

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but why are non masons posting in this thread?




Hi clamman,

Maybe I can answer this question.

As a non-Mason I am on this forum for a few reasons. To ask about Freemasonry from the experts, actual Freemasons. To demonstrate the research I have done on Freemasonry and learn from both the positive and negative feedback. To ask intelligent questions. To get a feel for Freemasons (they are as rare as fish fur in day to day life) and so far they seem pretty awright. To get a feel for dynamic Freemasonry as opposed to the static Masonry of my readings of various manuals etc. Finally to gather insights into Freemasonry and compare it to the rhetoric of the anti-Masons (which appear to all be based on a defense of Christianity).

I am on this particular thread to offer some naïve advice (out of the mouth of babes, so to speak) which might be of help.

And finally, I greatly appreciate being allowed to interact with experienced Freemasons as far as I am able to formulate relative questions and answers.

Hope this helps? Thanx!
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
Back to Top
AaronSawyer View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: October/07/2014
Location: Fort Bragg, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2014 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

> There are many "secrets" and "mysteries" hidden within Freemasonry. Most of which; I have found, are hidden in plain sight if one would but open their eyes to see.

Quite so.


 
Your interpretations are interesting but this ritual does seem different from ones I've experienced in the past.  Can you elaborate slightly?
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2014 at 3:15pm
> There are many "secrets" and "mysteries" hidden within Freemasonry. Most of which; I have found, are hidden in plain sight if one would but open their eyes to see.

Quite so.


Back to Top
Adept? View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August/30/2013
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2014 at 6:38am
If I may... I think the brothers above are trying to say that your beliefs in your interpretations are yours and yours alone and any attempt at presenting them as scientific fact needs to be backed up and based upon evidence to that end. There are many "secrets" and "mysteries" hidden within Freemasonry. Most of which; I have found, are hidden in plain sight if one would but open their eyes to see.
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 9:15pm

We must each seek our own path.  I regret that I could offer nothing that you valued.

But if you do have some curiosity you may like to ask a few of your brethren if they have experienced anything odd in the temple.   For example, our DC commented to me that he often sees the pavement change colors.  Such anomalous data may be the start of investigations into Masonic Science.


Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:


>Let us know here or  in a tyled forum.

I am not in the tyled forum.

The teaching of the EA  TB is very clear when it is looked at as a narrative rather than a collection of symbols.  (Stand in the middle of the scene and work out appropriate actions)

The use of the mosaic pavement is taught by implication rather than explicitly, as you would expect in a veiled moral science.   There are many veiled hints if we use the ritual and the conventional explanations as starting points rather than an end of investigation. 

For example the illogical attachment of tassels to the corners of the pavement (a carpet has tassels on the sides) can be initially understood by the use of electrical theory - charge accumulates at and streams from the sharpest points.  (The corollary is that the principal officers sit at the entry points for the flow of charge)  Then we might link the 4 tassels to the 4 rivers of Eden, knowing that the term "Eden" is a veiling.  Consider also that the pavement is a solid state device and an antenna - geometry being at the core of Masonry

>you don't know what those "genuine" secrets

I have given multiple entry points in this post, but until the work of the EA is substantially accomplished, it is unusual for the hidden mysteries of nature and science to reveal themselves - in part because the internal noise drowns out the signal.


Ozzie,

I have to agree with Ed. This is the second instance in our discussion where your ritual is significantly different than mine. Without going into too much detail, the tassels or tesselated border is much, much differently set up in my ritual. The meaning of the border is very straightforward in my ritual so I  can't see how you can base your analogies of the tassels to electro-magnetic phenomena without giving some basis for your reasoning. That is why I asked if you knew of any rituals, lectures or lessons that would support your statements.

It sounds to me that what you are stating all this represents is your opinion and is not in any ancient Masonic writings and rituals. That is all fine and well if you want to have a discussion on what your interpretations of various Masonic symbols are but if you are saying they are genuine secrets or ancient mysteries, that is a much different story.

I am not going to continue to respond to your posts unless you can corroborate your views with credible Masonic writings or data.  
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 8:23pm
>Obviously, you don't know what the tassels represents.

It is more a matter of observation.  Masonry being a science, from observation we form hypotheses and use experiment to test those hypotheses.

But failing that the usual explanation is the 4 virtues from Plato's Republic.   


Personally I think it is more accurate to follow the Jewish tradition

Deuteronomy 22:12: "You shall make yourself twisted threads, on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself."

So why did the Jews find tassels to be important?   Did they read Plato as well?








Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:


...

For example the illogical attachment of tassels to the corners of the pavement (a carpet has tassels on the sides) can be initially understood by the use of electrical theory - charge accumulates at and streams from the sharpest points.  (The corollary is that the principal officers sit at the entry points for the flow of charge)  Then we might link the 4 tassels to the 4 rivers of Eden, knowing that the term "Eden" is a veiling.  Consider also that the pavement is a solid state device and an antenna - geometry being at the core of Masonry
...



You are making unjustified assumptions.    Obviously, you don't know what the tassels represents.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 4:56pm

>Let us know here or  in a tyled forum.

I am not in the tyled forum.

The teaching of the EA  TB is very clear when it is looked at as a narrative rather than a collection of symbols.  (Stand in the middle of the scene and work out appropriate actions)

The use of the mosaic pavement is taught by implication rather than explicitly, as you would expect in a veiled moral science.   There are many veiled hints if we use the ritual and the conventional explanations as starting points rather than an end of investigation. 

For example the illogical attachment of tassels to the corners of the pavement (a carpet has tassels on the sides) can be initially understood by the use of electrical theory - charge accumulates at and streams from the sharpest points.  (The corollary is that the principal officers sit at the entry points for the flow of charge)  Then we might link the 4 tassels to the 4 rivers of Eden, knowing that the term "Eden" is a veiling.  Consider also that the pavement is a solid state device and an antenna - geometry being at the core of Masonry

>you don't know what those "genuine" secrets

I have given multiple entry points in this post, but until the work of the EA is substantially accomplished, it is unusual for the hidden mysteries of nature and science to reveal themselves - in part because the internal noise drowns out the signal.





Edited by Ozzie - October/04/2014 at 6:51pm
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

>This is not a question used in our ritual or as a 'test question".

I sometimes wonder whether rituals should be edited by brethren who admit to not having the genuine secrets.

>Having made good men better, what happens next? Are you saying that once the MM is conferred on a candidate that is the end of making a man better?

My question rather is:  is humanity here just to be perfect in itself or does it have a function beyond its own welfare?

A hint is given when we are told the Freemasons lodge extends from E to W and N to S and from the center/surface of the Earth into the Heavens.

This is a rather large lodge to work in.  What is the work?



I somewhat agree with you that rituals should remain intact over the years, but you keep talking about "genuine" secrets. Apparently even you don't know what those "genuine" secrets are so how do you know they even exist or have existed?

I believe that humanity has a function beyond its own welfare. Do you know of any Masonic rituals, lectures, lessons etc., ancient or otherwise, that teach any such function? Let us know here or  in a tyled forum.
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2014 at 2:11am
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

>This is not a question used in our ritual or as a 'test question".

I sometimes wonder whether rituals should be edited by brethren who admit to not having the genuine secrets.

...


So you are saying that 'Emulation' style Lodges should return to the Ancient style rituals used before the 1813 unification?
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2014 at 11:27pm
>This is not a question used in our ritual or as a 'test question".

I sometimes wonder whether rituals should be edited by brethren who admit to not having the genuine secrets.

>Having made good men better, what happens next? Are you saying that once the MM is conferred on a candidate that is the end of making a man better?

My question rather is:  is humanity here just to be perfect in itself or does it have a function beyond its own welfare?

A hint is given when we are told the Freemasons lodge extends from E to W and N to S and from the center/surface of the Earth into the Heavens.

This is a rather large lodge to work in.  What is the work?


Back to Top
Adept? View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August/30/2013
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2014 at 9:17pm
Yea, that isn't a question I'm familiar with either from PHA in Florida, or A.F&A.M in Maine.
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2014 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

>  ...

Q:  Why were you made a Freemason?

A: For the sake of obtaining the knowledge and secrets preserved amongst Freemasons.

.....


This is not a question used in our ritual or as a 'test question".

Remember that you are of one of the 'Emulation' style rituals.   While most of the US Lodges are of the Ancient style based on William Preston lectures of the late 1700's & before the unification of 1813.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2014 at 6:57pm
Ozzie,

My ritual does not use the word "preserved" so I don't think I can answer the question directly. My answer would be the same as I answered above.

Your second point, "that is the work of the EA. When that is largely accomplished then the Brother is ready for the work of the FC." My opinion, I don't think any of us can claim that work is accomplished when we begin the Fellowcraft Degree. I seriously doubt anyone can truly claim that work is ever finished on this earth.

What is the work of a MM Lodge when there are no candidates? The MM is not an end, it is a beginning. In my opinion, the work of an MM Lodge, candidates or no candidates, should be to continue forming the perfect ashlar and it never ends. 

Having made good men better, what happens next? Are you saying that once the MM is conferred on a candidate that is the end of making a man better? I suppose in a very narrow sense, by virtue of having been taught the lessons of the Degrees, a man is better than before he received the degrees but does it stop there? I don't think it does.

I think there is enough in all Degrees for a man to chew on for years and years and then some. It's all fine and well to delve into the more mysterious and esoteric aspects but these merely supplement the basic lessons. 

I agree with your basic premise (or what I perceive is your basic premise) that the Masonic education system could do a better job in elaborating on the basic lessons of the three degrees. 


Edited by droche - October/03/2014 at 6:58pm
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2014 at 8:00pm
>Ozzie, when you say "mysteries" and "secrets" are you talking about what is commonly called "Esoteric Masonry?"

Here is one of the test questions used in my lodge before being passed to the second degree:

Q:  Why were you made a Freemason?

A: For the sake of obtaining the knowledge and secrets preserved amongst Freemasons.


So what knowledge and secrets are preserved?   Are they only substitute recognition signs findable in 5 minutes using Google? 

>Another mystery school is Kabballah

As you may have noticed the Kabballah is a science of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols.

>but the major lessons of Judaism is to love your neighbor (or words to that effect); everything else is secondary. I believe it is similar with Masonry.

In my view that is the work of the EA.  When that is largely accomplished then the brother is ready for the work of the FC - the study of the hidden mysteries of nature and science.  It took me 20 years even to understand the meaning of those words.

And what is the work of MM in group formation?   Surely it must build on the work of the FC, but what is it?

> the lessons of the first three degrees are really all that matters; everything else is secondary.

So having made good men better, what happens next?  

What is the real work of the MM lodge when all brethren are fully trained and there are no candidates?  

I once asked that question of the national head of an Australian Masonic order and he had no answer.


>they will become privy to exotic information not available to others.

That is certainly a view that may be held by the readers of books such as Angels & Demons, but such books deal with some of the outer organisations associated with the mysteries. 

Nevertheless the worthy brother paying close attention to the flow of work in the temple may occasionally make valuable observations that contribute to unfolding the work of the FC.















Edited by Ozzie - October/02/2014 at 8:14pm
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2014 at 3:29pm
Ozzie, when you say "mysteries" and "secrets" are you talking about what is commonly called "Esoteric Masonry?" That would be the study of Masonry from the point of view that it is one of the so-called "Mystery Schools." I agree that there is that aspect to Masonry, but if a newly raised Mason attempts to delve into that, to me, that would be like attempting to study for a doctorate degree before completing elementary school. 

Another mystery school is Kabballah, Jewish mysticism. Elie Weisel, author of Night stated in that book that he wanted to study Kabballah when he was a teenager. His father told him noone could ever begin to even understand Kabbalah until he was at least 50 and would have to be a pious, practicing Jew in all those intervening years. A rabbi also commented on Kabballah that it was all fine and well, but the major lessons of Judaism is to love your neighbor (or words to that effect); everything else is secondary. I believe it is similar with Masonry.

That being said, I do agree that many of our lodges, grand lodges and appendent bodies do not stress the lessons of the first three degrees and much more could be done in this area, but the lessons of the first three degrees are really all that matters; everything else is secondary. To me the mystery is that it is a journey that never ends and one never stops learning. The secret is that there are no secrets; we teach the same lessons that every major religion and moral code teaches although in a different way. Where people get disappointed is that some think or are erroneously led to believe that they will become privy to exotic information not available to others. It never was like that. My opinions of course.




Edited by droche - October/02/2014 at 3:31pm
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2014 at 7:42am
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

  ....
I recall reading in Blavatsky, writing at the end of the 19th century, that no lodges still possessed the genuine secrets.  Her wording seems to be to be rather specific - allowing that some brethren still possessed the genuine secrets.  ...


Why are you trying to relate Madam Helena Petrovna (Hahn) Blavatsky to Freemasonry?   She a was a spiritualist & medium working in magic and seances.    She was also an admitted murderer and adulteress.

What little that I have read of her, nothing she wrote or said was specifically about Freemasonry.   If you have any link otherwise, please post it.    The use of 'lodge' in the 19the century dialect is more a general reference to a 'group' or the 'consensus of a group'.   Not Freemasonry specifically.

Your post are backing up my statement that those Members who join Freemasonry thinking they will find & gain knowledge & secrets of magic & spiritualism are quickly disappointed.

You post are deviating from the topic of this thread which is "How do we Make Good Men Better?"   If you want to continue with magic & spiritualism start another thread.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
NobleShabba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March/11/2012
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2014 at 4:09pm
The path to discovering a Masonic Secret is itself a Mystery.
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2014 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

...My point was those petitioners were looking for something that do not exist in Freemasonry.  ...


I recall reading in Blavatsky, writing at the end of the 19th century, that no lodges still possessed the genuine secrets.  Her wording seems to be to be rather specific - allowing that some brethren still possessed the genuine secrets.

As far as I can see some of the genuine secrets are still present in the ritual - although "the mysteries are preserved in Masonry as a fly is preserved in amber" to quote another authority.


Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2014 at 7:08am
You bastardized my comment by leaving out why the Black cube should be cast.   ... My point was those petitioners were looking for something that do not exist in Freemasonry.  Therefore, their reason to join Freemasonry was not good.   ... This was my echo and comment to your situation of the EA described above that had the 'sinking feeling' when told the "genuine secrets" were lost.

Next, it would be well that you define what you mean as "secrets and mysteries of ancient freemasonry".   ... These are not lost!   There were and still are construction methods, mathematics, logic, and other 'arts & sciences' covered in our lectures.     ... But many individuals believe these to include 'magical, spiritual, & supernatural" secrets.

You said "Sad then that there is no one to teach them."    But there are!  Maybe not in your Lodge.   It is a matter of where to look. 
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2014 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

  ... Candidates come to find the secrets and mysteries of ancient freemasonry, and then discover that no one knows anything about them.
...


...    ... A Black Cube should have been cast.

For other new EAs, Masonic education and good Mentors will help set the EA & FC on the correct path.


Personally I welcome seekers after the secrets and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry as a breath of fresh air.  In my lodge ritual (Scottish), it states that candidate has joined for the sake of those mysteries and secrets.  Sad then that there is no one to teach them.

In my experience perhaps 10% of brethren have a passive interest in the secrets and mysteries, and perhaps  1% of brethren are actively in pursuit of the secrets and mysteries. 

I recall long ago belonging to a well-known US-based fraternal organisation and one of my friends had a dream about it.  The local lodge was a soup kitchen and the members came for soup but few wanted to know how it was made.

A couple of years later another member told me a dream in which he folded up the  temple, put it on his back, and took it away.

Perhaps that has happened in Masonry also




Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2014 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

  ...


A few months ago, after the lodge was closed I took a new EA in and showed him some of the inner aspects of the temple.  I mentioned that the genuine secrets were thought to be lost and he said that immediately he felt a sinking feeling in his stomach.

So I assured him that while Grand Lodges did not even look for the genuine secrets, they are still to be found by the worthy and diligent brother.

But I think his reaction is at the core of our problems.  Candidates come to find the secrets and mysteries of ancient freemasonry, and then discover that no one knows anything about them.

Why should they remain?  Who will teach them the secrets and mysteries? 

Better to move on than waste time.




Basically, I agree.     ... But, this is also a failure of the Investigating Committee to ascertain the Petitioner's true motives for joining Freemasonry.      This petitioner (& many others) have a belief that magical, spiritual, and Biblical 'secrete' knowledge exist and only obtainable thru Freemasonry.  They were not interested in belonging to a 'Brotherhood' and failed to understand its benefits.    ... A Black Cube should have been cast.

For other new EAs, Masonic education and good Mentors will help set the EA & FC on the correct path.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
Ozzie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: September/29/2014
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2014 at 7:07pm
I rather wonder if we are not coming to a point for a renewal or reinvention of Masonry. 

In recent times we had the troops returning from WW2 where they had experienced brotherhood and a common struggle for the betterment of humanity.  Returning to civilian life must have been a shock with the rat race of materialism and personal power.   Hence they joined Masonry in large numbers to re-experience brotherhood and greater purpose (even though poorly described)

Others too, at least in Australia, when social security was poor, joined so that they would have access to Masonic old age homes.

Both those groups are largely gone.

Those that remain are often older, wishing to preserve Masonry for its own sake, in the hope that some recovery may occur.


A few months ago, after the lodge was closed I took a new EA in and showed him some of the inner aspects of the temple.  I mentioned that the genuine secrets were thought to be lost and he said that immediately he felt a sinking feeling in his stomach.

So I assured him that while Grand Lodges did not even look for the genuine secrets, they are still to be found by the worthy and diligent brother.

But I think his reaction is at the core of our problems.  Candidates come to find the secrets and mysteries of ancient freemasonry, and then discover that no one knows anything about them.

Why should they remain?  Who will teach them the secrets and mysteries? 

Better to move on than waste time.


Back to Top
Warrior1256 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: September/04/2014
Location: Louisville, Ky
Status: Offline
Points: 96
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Warrior1256 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2014 at 5:56pm
I agree that we need to make lodge meetings more interesting to bring in more young members. At the rate that brothers are dieing off if we don't start attracting new members we're in big trouble.
St. Matthews Lodge 906
Suburban Lodge 740
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2014 at 7:26am
Admin note to the forum:

I have hidden several post made yesterday and this morning which are irrelevant and off-topic to this tread.   Tariditi's post above was directed to those hidden post.

"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
Tarditi View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1075
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tarditi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/12/2014 at 6:00pm
My friend, I have no idea to what you are referring. 
I am sorry you feel entitled to something - something we couldn't begin to provide.

Go in peace.
Dustin Tarditi, PM
James B Green #735 A.F. & A.M.
Back to Top
liuyelian View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: May/28/2013
Location: hefeifeicuilu
Status: Offline
Points: 3
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liuyelian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2013 at 12:08am
I know exactly where they are going to sit and who they will talk to. I try and move all over because you see different vantage points









Edited by liuyelian - May/29/2013 at 12:11am
-=The Dali Cheap Diablo 3 Gold
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2013 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Regarding Lodge Attendance Problems.  I am a 'newbie' here, I am not a Mason, and so far I have never stepped foot in a Mason Lodge.  But I have some experience with 'consolidation'.
 
In the Church I frequent, the Bishop is in charge of 125 Episcopal Churches (I am a Roman Catholic by the way) and is plagued by low attendance.  In a meeting I attended the Bishop has to close five churches, sell them off, and distribute the money.  His basis of closure is lack of activity.  Essentially the same thing has happened decades ago at my university (UMass) where the basis of decision was lack of activity.
 
I hate to make this suggestion, but if a Masonic Lodge is unproductive or inactive, is it time to close and consolidate?  Is that a viable option within the Freemason community?
 
Just a thought.

In many GLs (mine included), the 'Lodge' and its members are the one responsible for the Lodge finances and expense to build & maintain the lodge building.   As long as 7 members desire to keep the Lodge open and functioning, they may do so.     So a 'inactive lodge' has to be one of tw0 situations: (1st)  ... the Charter has been suspended; (2nd) ... lodge membership has fallen to less than the required number (7 & may be different (more than 7 required) for some GLs) to keep it open.

So the Lodge property reverted to the GL where the Lodge owns the property 'free & clear'; or else the property reverts to the Leaser or Grantor.

The point is:  where the Lodge does not maintain minimum operating requirements the GL will suspended the Charter.  Otherwise, it is the members choice to close or consolidate the Lodge.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Banned
Banned


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2013 at 10:11am
Regarding Lodge Attendance Problems.  I am a 'newbie' here, I am not a Mason, and so far I have never stepped foot in a Mason Lodge.  But I have some experience with 'consolidation'.
 
In the Church I frequent, the Bishop is in charge of 125 Episcopal Churches (I am a Roman Catholic by the way) and is plagued by low attendance.  In a meeting I attended the Bishop has to close five churches, sell them off, and distribute the money.  His basis of closure is lack of activity.  Essentially the same thing has happened decades ago at my university (UMass) where the basis of decision was lack of activity.
 
I hate to make this suggestion, but if a Masonic Lodge is unproductive or inactive, is it time to close and consolidate?  Is that a viable option within the Freemason community?
 
Just a thought.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
Back to Top
Groupie View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: August/12/2010
Location: Columbia, SC
Status: Offline
Points: 142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Groupie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2013 at 7:47am
Brethern This is an ongoing problem with a lot of lodges  ! In my expericence visiting Lodges It has to do with personal feelings that is a lot of members do not like a officer or officers that have been installed, and instead of addressing the problem to that officer or officers they rather opt not to come to meetings because of the situation! Remember it is all about Harmony in the Lodge and that is what we as free Masons strive for !
SJD
Back to Top
Carl View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2010
Location: Newcastle, Eng
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2013 at 12:39pm
Brothers, if you have a Facebook Page join us for discussion of the topic How Do We Make Good Men Better?  There is some good points beng brought up. This forum is also bring up some good points. If you are interesed in joining the Facebook group goto https://www.facebook.com/groups/317043281755187/ Thanks
Widows Sons
http://widowssons.ws
Dying to Ride
Watch Out For Motorcycles
http://dyingtoride.org
Back to Top
paullittrell View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: July/09/2011
Location: Welland, ON
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote paullittrell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/10/2013 at 7:27pm
Introspection is the best word I can use to describe how Freemasonry makes "Good Men" better.
Paul Littrell

Dufferin #338
Maple Leaf #103
McCallum Chapter #29
St. Bernard de Clairveaux #19
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/10/2013 at 11:22am
I agree with Coach and a couple of others above.  Freemasonry does not make a Mason better.  It can only lead a Mason to and show him the Light. What he does with the knowledge is up to him.   Freemasonry can only proved the tools, the Mason makes himself better.   ... However, a well trained Mentor can be essential to setting a new Mason on the right path to becoming better.

I also, saw this post when it was first made, but re-framed from replying to see what other member thought.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
Stormriderjd View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July/19/2012
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stormriderjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/10/2013 at 10:12am

post removed.



Edited by Stormriderjd - April/16/2013 at 11:33am
Secretary @ Larrabee 131
Stilesville, IN
Back to Top
easttowesttoeast View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: February/24/2013
Location: U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote easttowesttoeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2013 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by clamman clamman wrote:

I don't see the open discussions thingy.  All I know is I'm reading it in the MM tyled area.  If they have access to this thread, don't they have access to the rest of the MM tyled threads?
 
No, they don't. This was a general announcement. You can find this thread at the top of anyone of the subforums.
 
I have no access to the tyled area and have no idea how to get their (don't care really either, I'm an FC).
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2013 at 3:05pm
It's in both General Discussions and MM Tyled. I don't recall reading anything that should make it in the tyled area but it's up to an administrator.
Back to Top
clamman View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/29/2007
Location: Eastern NC
Status: Offline
Points: 150
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clamman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2013 at 2:59pm
I don't see the open discussions thingy.  All I know is I'm reading it in the MM tyled area.  If they have access to this thread, don't they have access to the rest of the MM tyled threads?
Past Master, Franklin #109 AF&AM
Back to Top
Tarditi View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1075
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tarditi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2013 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by clamman clamman wrote:

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but why are non masons posting in this thread?

It's under "open discussions" - they may have valuable input, and this is not a tyled discussion.
Dustin Tarditi, PM
James B Green #735 A.F. & A.M.
Back to Top
clamman View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/29/2007
Location: Eastern NC
Status: Offline
Points: 150
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clamman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2013 at 1:51pm
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but why are non masons posting in this thread?
Past Master, Franklin #109 AF&AM
Back to Top
coach View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: October/23/2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Status: Offline
Points: 1323
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2013 at 6:07am
Originally posted by easttowesttoeast easttowesttoeast wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by easttowesttoeast easttowesttoeast wrote:

... It is our duty to give them the tools, but not ours to work on their ashlar. We have our own ashlars to worry about for the builder.
I disagree with your wording. 
 
It is our duty to SHOW them what Working Tools exist and what they can do to make a good man better WHEN USED. 
 
It is up to them to find 'em, pick 'em up and then use 'em 'til the Work is done.
 
The problem is most Brothers only know what the Working Tools are.  Very few Brothers know how to use them, what they actually do and what Transformations that can be expected when used properly.
I usually feel that my head is about to be bitten off by anyone who replies. I was pleasantly surprised.
 
I can say that my post was indeed wrong. I received instruction, however, I can do whatever I want with them (including never having or using them to begin with).
I disagree with your wording.
 
Your post was not wrong.  It was inspiring!  Wink
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

Books I Wrote | My FB Wall
Back to Top
easttowesttoeast View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: February/24/2013
Location: U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote easttowesttoeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2013 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by easttowesttoeast easttowesttoeast wrote:

... It is our duty to give them the tools, but not ours to work on their ashlar. We have our own ashlars to worry about for the builder.
I disagree with your wording. 
 
It is our duty to SHOW them what Working Tools exist and what they can do to make a good man better WHEN USED. 
 
It is up to them to find 'em, pick 'em up and then use 'em 'til the Work is done.
 
The problem is most Brothers only know what the Working Tools are.  Very few Brothers know how to use them, what they actually do and what Transformations that can be expected when used properly.
I usually feel that my head is about to be bitten off by anyone who replies. I was pleasantly surprised.
 
I can say that my post was indeed wrong. I received instruction, however, I can do whatever I want with them (including never having or using them to begin with).
Back to Top
coach View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: October/23/2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Status: Offline
Points: 1323
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2013 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by easttowesttoeast easttowesttoeast wrote:

... It is our duty to give them the tools, but not ours to work on their ashlar. We have our own ashlars to worry about for the builder.
I disagree with your wording. 
 
It is our duty to SHOW them what Working Tools exist and what they can do to make a good man better WHEN USED. 
 
It is up to them to find 'em, pick 'em up and then use 'em 'til the Work is done.
 
The problem is most Brothers only know what the Working Tools are.  Very few Brothers know how to use them, what they actually do and what Transformations that can be expected when used properly.
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

Books I Wrote | My FB Wall
Back to Top
easttowesttoeast View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: February/24/2013
Location: U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote easttowesttoeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2013 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by PHAlanx PHAlanx wrote:

it is not our duty to make good men better, imo. a man should want to chisel away at his ashlar for his own reasons and not anyone elses. just my opinion


That is true. That is the honest truth.

During my undergrad years, we had a saying when someone would try and join my fraternity and not be the kind of good soil in which to sew our precepts. The saying way "This is Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity; Not Lambda Chi Alpha Rehab". We were able to pick up good men and stay away from those who may not be so great.

I feel that it is my duty to share my knowledge with my other brothers (for example, if I find a great reading on the EA or FC degree or a scholarly researched book on the order). My interpretation of the symbols may be different than yours. However, it is also my duty to pass on the working tools to others whom I feel would be good ground. It is our duty to give them the tools, but not ours to work on their ashlar. We have our own ashlars to worry about for the builder.
Back to Top
jullysha View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2013
Location: kahama-shinyang
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jullysha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2013 at 12:35am
wawoooh that is option opinion of your success big brother I need that one thing and that if I will get no rules of any country will deverge in my decision mmmh give me the chance
jas
Back to Top
PHAlanx View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: February/08/2013
Location: Knoxville, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 61
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PHAlanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2013 at 11:16pm
it is not our duty to make good men better, imo. a man should want to chisel away at his ashlar for his own reasons and not anyone elses. just my opinion
E: 1/12/12
P: 7/12/12
R: 2/7/13

MW Prince Hall GL of Tennessee

Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 581
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2013 at 9:13pm
I agree with FoF even though he isn't a Mason yet. I think we need to know what keeps the public interest. We are making many Masons in my lodge 10-12 a year but many only come a few meetings or here and there or not at all. I think a viewpoint to some extend outside of Masonry should be welcomed.
 
@Easttowesttoeast, Georgia is a jurisdiction where all business is done on the 3rd degree. I know where you are coming from. I had the same problem. When I was going through they forgot to invite us to the public stuff and the fundraisers just for that reason. We came and ate dinner before the meeting and left unless we were doing an exam or getting the next degree.
 
I made sure our new EA and FC Brothers did not have the same experience all these years since I have been raised.
Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
KYCH
Back to Top
easttowesttoeast View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: February/24/2013
Location: U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote easttowesttoeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2013 at 5:01pm
It is also a different experience when you are an EA for 6 months. You find that other lodges around you made men MM's in 3 or 4 months time. Sometimes it is like you get to participate, but not too much.
You can do this for a while and not that. You can go to this event, but not until half way through.
 
Being an EA or an FC is usually a short experience. Degree, exam, Degree, exam, Degree (optional exam). However, when you are an EA or FC for 4 or more months, you start to have that yearning for not only some sort of acceptance but the ability to take part in the lodge.
 
Yes, "bull in the china shop" is the wrong way to go. Sometimes it is even difficult for me. I came from an established organization that I helped expand, went to international meetings and was even an officer. To start back at the bottom of an organization is a humbling experience.
 
What does help is when a WM recognizes that you want to improve yourself and the others around you. I have an excellent WM who does want the junior members to be, in a way, more active than the senior members and solicits their responses/opinions.
 
Were I in a jurisdiction that only opened on the MM all of the time for business, I probably wouldn't even be here or know half of the things I know. I am very fortunate to have the opportunity to go to lodge every week and not be turned away.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.