Mastermason.com Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Forum Lounge (off-topic & lighter discussions) > General Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol
    Posted: June/03/2013 at 11:07am
Question: What is the significance of the Rams Head  on the end of a Cornucopia in Freemason symbology?
 
According to FREEMASONS FOR DUMMIES by Christoper Hodapp, the Cornucopia, or 'horn of plenty' is the Jewel of Office of the Senior Steward or Junior Steward (pages 101-102). 
 
And here in the Boston Public Garden is a beautiful 'neo-classic' monument to Freemason GEORGE ROBERT WHITE (1847-1922) entitled "Cast Your Bread Upon the Waters" Eccles. XI.I - and if you notice at the bottom left and right of the monument are two bronze Cornucopias - with a Rams Head on each end of the cornucopias.  (I have sat at this 'Greek' stature eating my lunch for over forty years).
 
 
and here is a close up of those Rams Heads on a Masonic memorial:
 
 
Now, the only mention of a Rams head or Goat Head I have found in reference to Freemasonry are from the Anti-Masons who claim satanic reasons for the Rams head (which is nonsense).  But I cannot find a Rams head in any of the dozens of books on Freemasonry I have carefully read.
 
Again, Could anyone shed any information of the significance of the Rams Head on the end of a Cornucopia??
 
P.S. The expression on this 1925 monument, "Cast your bread upon the waters" is also found on the last page of A PILGRIM'S PATH by John J. Robinson in his concluding statement.
 
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2013 at 2:55pm
The Cornucopia, or 'horn of plenty', is a Greek/Roman symbol.  It is the symbol of the Goddess Abundantia.   The symbol may have Egyptian roots too (???) ... Stop trying to make the symbol into a Masonic symbol and simply look up the history of the symbol itself.                   

The symbolism of the goat or ram is also very old.   In many old cultures the goat/ram were symbolic of God or the favorite animal of the Gods.    The goat climbed mountains to be near God.   The use of the goat as a satanic symbol is of a modern origin since the mid 1700's and popularized by the horror movies of the 20th century.

The 'neo-classic' monument is Classic Greek & Roman mythology & details.               

Edited by edwmax - June/03/2013 at 3:00pm
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2013 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
Again, Could anyone shed any information of the significance of the Rams Head on the end of a Cornucopia??
....
 


Most likely Artist's 'freedom & interpretation' of detail for the water fountain.  The two heads appear to have been outlets for water streams.  A ram's head would be natural to the horns.
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2013 at 3:15pm
The symbols used in Freemasonry are not unique to Freemasonry. All of the symbols are from Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions (mythology).  Many of these also were adopted into Christianity and other modern religions.


Edited by edwmax - June/03/2013 at 3:15pm
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2013 at 6:27pm

There is no symbol of a Goat/Ram head at the end of a Cornucopia in Freemasonry. As stated by Illustrious Brother Hodapp's book, the Cornucopia does represent the Senior & Junior Steward of the Blue Lodge, but no Goat/Ram head involved lol. Not sure where you are getting the reference to the Ram/Goat head.

Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Back to Top
coach View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: October/23/2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Status: Offline
Points: 959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2013 at 7:11pm
Ram

1) from the Mesopotamian zodiac ordering for "The Laborer" indicating there is no plenty without work.
2) The Ram's Horn was used for Music and Tubal Cain's Brother's name was Jubal (yobel in Hebrew) meaning "Ram's Horn". He was the father of all music and musicians.
3) The Ram was also a replacement for Abraham's son, which was sacrificed in place of him. The placement of the Ram is often a reminder that we should place faith in the Lord and offer to Him Suitable offerings, even when we are showered with plenty.
4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy.

My 2 Cents,

Coach N

PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-)
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

Books I Wrote | My FB Wall
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2013 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...
 
P.S. The expression on this 1925 monument, "Cast your bread upon the waters" is also found on the last page of A PILGRIM'S PATH by John J. Robinson in his concluding statement.
 


And, Ecclesiastes 11:1-2 KJV
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2013 at 10:32am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The Cornucopia, or 'horn of plenty', is a Greek/Roman symbol.  ... Stop trying to make the symbol into a Masonic symbol and simply look up the history of the symbol itself. 
    
 
Hi edwmax, 
 
The Cornucopia as a Freemason 'Jewel' for Senior and Junior Steward of a Lodge was clearly explained in the recommended book: FREEMASON FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp (pages 101-102).             

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

In many old cultures the goat/ram were symbolic of God or the favorite animal of the Gods.    The goat climbed mountains to be near God.   The use of the goat as a satanic symbol is of a modern origin since the mid 1700's and popularized by the horror movies of the 20th century.
 
That's good info.  Haven't come across that detail in any of my extensive research.

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The 'neo-classic' monument is Classic Greek & Roman mythology & details.               
 
That is not entirely accurate.  The term 'neo-classic' itself indicates it is not Classic.  And there are four valid books on Freemason architecture and art which indicate the Freemason preference for the Neo-classic forms of art for Masonic expression, allegory, metaphor, and design.
 
I worked at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) for two years (1993-95) an it is nothing but a 'Neo-Classical' example of architecture in both function and design (neither Roman nor Greek).
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2013 at 10:42am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Ram

2) The Ram's Horn was used for Music and Tubal Cain's Brother's name was Jubal (yobel in Hebrew) meaning "Ram's Horn". He was the father of all music and musicians.
 
Yes.  I have just completed the five books of Moses and am half-way through JOSHUA.  I underlined every time the word RAM was used (as opposed to goat or male goat).  A few times a Ram's fleece died red was ordered by the Lord as fitting for sacrifice, but usually just a plain Ram was sufficient.

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

3) The Ram was also a replacement for Abraham's son, which was sacrificed in place of him. The placement of the Ram is often a reminder that we should place faith in the Lord and offer to Him Suitable offerings, even when we are showered with plenty.
 
I notice that a Ram had preference in the Bible over other quadrapeds for sacrifice, which led me to ask: Why a Ram?  And why are Rams heads on the bottom of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial to a Brother Freemason???
 
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy.[QUOTE]
 
Those who are worthy?  Nice.  That is a good and logical answer.  And it gives me a starting place for more research on this question.  Thanks for this answer.  See, you gotta ask a real Mason!!!



[QUOTE/=coach]PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-)
 
No, but please do.  I will put it on my reading list.  Thanks again!!!
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
coach View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: October/23/2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Status: Offline
Points: 959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2013 at 11:30am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

No, but please do.  I will put it on my reading list.  Thanks again!!!

I'm glad that my post was nurturing.

You can read more about my book release here: http://www.coach.net/PR_BR_01.htm
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

Books I Wrote | My FB Wall
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2013 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The Cornucopia, or 'horn of plenty', is a Greek/Roman symbol.  ... Stop trying to make the symbol into a Masonic symbol and simply look up the history of the symbol itself. 
    
 
Hi edwmax, 
 
The Cornucopia as a Freemason 'Jewel' for Senior and Junior Steward of a Lodge was clearly explained in the recommended book: FREEMASON FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp (pages 101-102).    ...


SO!  I didn't say otherwise ... but the symbolism was borrowed from other religions and legends; and has the SAME allegorical meaning.  

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...     

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

In many old cultures the goat/ram were symbolic of God or the favorite animal of the Gods.    The goat climbed mountains to be near God.   The use of the goat as a satanic symbol is of a modern origin since the mid 1700's and popularized by the horror movies of the 20th century.
 
That's good info.  Haven't come across that detail in any of my extensive research.  ...

Then I question your 'extensive research'   ... This info is easily found with proper method of research.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The 'neo-classic' monument is Classic Greek & Roman mythology & details.               
 
That is not entirely accurate.  The term 'neo-classic' itself indicates it is not Classic.  And there are four valid books on Freemason architecture and art which indicate the Freemason preference for the Neo-classic forms of art for Masonic expression, allegory, metaphor, and design.
 
I worked at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) for two years (1993-95) an it is nothing but a 'Neo-Classical' example of architecture in both function and design (neither Roman nor Greek).
   The structure or monument to which you are asking about is 'non-Classical' in design and presentation.   But the individual visual elements used in the design are 'classical' Greek/Roman forms presented in a non-classical modern artistic monument.   ... That is the very definition of 'Neo-Classical' => Classical forms presented in a non-classical method.

LOOK past the forest and see the trees & bushes ... that is what alegories are about.


Edited by edwmax - June/04/2013 at 1:43pm
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 1:23pm
Again, I am not a Mason, just extremely interested in the subject.
 
I found this in relation to a Ram's head and Freemasonry: another dot to connect.
 
 
It seems the Ram god of Egypt -- Banebdjedet --  is closely associated with Osiris, which is fascinating in and of itself.  A deity of fertility, power, and immortality.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
CAMB.MASON View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: December/23/2008
Location: cambridge,mass.
Status: Offline
Points: 2054
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAMB.MASON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 9:56am
Perhaps brother Grimoire, find out who the caster was of the monument.  Even thou he, Brother White was a Mason, the caster may have taken liberties when making the drawings and cast, adding to his masterpiece.  Perhaps the Boston Public Library may offer further information on this piece of work  in the Gardens.  Maybe Daniel French was a Mason as well, he being the scupltor.


Edited by CAMB.MASON - June/06/2013 at 9:59am
I remain Fraternally Yours:

Curator & Historian
Cambridge Masonic Temple Cambridge, Massachusetts



Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 10:00am
Originally posted by CAMB.MASON CAMB.MASON wrote:

Perhaps brother Grimoire, find out who the caster was of the monument.  Even thou he, Brother White was a Mason, the caster may have taken liberties when making the drawings and cast, adding to his masterpiece.  Perhaps the Boston Public Library may offer further information on this piece of work  in the Gardens. 
 
Hi Camb.Mason,
 
Yes, Good Advice:  I am in the process at the moment.  I am typing this from the Copley Library.
 
I am curious as to exactly what was the intent of the sculptor - I have his name in my notes.
 
There is a lecture today at 2pm in the Rabb lecture hall on Boston's public monuments, and I will spring this question on the presentor.
 
P.S.  Happy Birthday Clap
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 10:05am
The Ram god of Egypt was not a goat or a sheep, but specifically a Ram.  The Egyptian word for Ram and Ba (soul) are the same.  The Ram God Banebdjedet was benevolent, as were all the Ram Gods of Egypt, Libya, and the Near East.  They were not evil (that was Set and Anubis).  So this is a good counter-argument for those who claim any goat worship and satanic connection with Freemasonry.   The anti-Masons don't know their Egyptology!
 
 
 
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 8:51am

Sheep and Goats:

Rams are male SHEEP, not male Goats.
 
SHEEP belong to the Ovas Aries species and have 54 Chromosomes.
Goats belong to the Capra Hircus species and have 60 Chromosomes.
 
SHEEP tails hang down. 
Goat tails stand up.
 
SHEEP have fleece
Goats have hair.
 
SHEEP have a mane.
Goats have a beard.
 
SHEEP are entirely domesticated
Goats are still found in the wild.
 
Male Goats have a gland beneath their tails, male SHEEP do not.
 
So again, the ancient Egyptians worshiped RAMS, and not goats.  I cannot find any goat worship amongst the Egyptians at all.  Libya seems to have had a goat god.
 
But there doesn't seem to be a direct link between RAMS and Freemasonry, only through Osiris (who got chopped up by his evil brother Typhon and reassembled by Isis - minus an important body part).
 
So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial??
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
LGustavson View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: March/15/2013
Location: Massachusetts
Status: Offline
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LGustavson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 8:56am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial??

Have we considered the notion that someone simply liked how it looked?
Luke A. Gustavson
Hayden Lodge, A.F.&A.M.
Initiated: 03/06/13
   Passed: 05/01/13
   Raised: 10/02/13
Back to Top
masonic.truths View Drop Down
Muzzled
Muzzled
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 10:48am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial??


First of all you are operating on a false premise. The White monument is not a Freemason memorial. I do not know if White was a Freemason or not, but the purpose of the monument is to celebrate him as a Philanthropist. The inscription on the monument is "A public spirited citizen whose great gift to the City of Boston provided for the creation of works of public utility and beauty for the use and enjoyment of the inhabitants."



"Near the Beacon-Arlington corner stands the beautiful angel monument and fountain honoring George Robert White, one of Boston’s greatest benefactors. When he died in 1922, his will included a charitable trust for public art, with $50,000 set aside for his own memorial. Erected in 1924, the monument is the last of the many collaborations by the sculptor Daniel Chester French and architect Henry Bacon. Symbolizing White’s largesse are the two cornucopias that feed the cobbled granite pool and the graceful bronze angel “casting bread upon the waters.”

http://friendsofthepublicgarden.org/our-parks/public-garden/sculpture-memorials/

There is no mention of him being a Freemason or Freemason symbols.

The Cornucopia and Rams heads were commonly used in Sculpture and Architecture during this period.



http://books.google.com/books?id=GbDEc5-VNuMC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Paul+Wayland+Bartlett+and+Daniel+Chester+French&source=bl&ots=0N2w69mJAE&sig=FYtKB_BzCNGCxET3ohuU-_Kh80o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_fGxUfKpI8vk4AOY8YD4Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Paul%20Wayland%20Bartlett%20and%20Daniel%20Chester%20French&f=false

"The Library’s rear terrace, designed by Thomas Hastings includes classical ornaments such as garlands, urns, and ram’s heads. This is the site of the William Cullen Bryant Memorial. Bryant (1794-1878) was a newspaper editor, one of America’s most popular poets, and a civic improver who led the campaign to create Central Park. Herbert Adams, one of the best New York sculptors of his period, created the bronze figure of Bryant. The memorial was dedicated in 1911, at the completion of the library."

http://www.bryantpark.org/things-to-do/monuments.html

"The lavish decorative bronze cap at the base of the flagstaff includes garlands and rams heads, and was sculpted by Paul Wayland Bartlett (1865-1925)."


http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/madisonsquarepark/monuments/961


"Certain styles of architecture made abundant use of highly carved decoration as part of the street façade. The French-influenced Beaux Arts style, popular from 1880 to 1920, made extensive use of sculpture and elaborate ornamentation in both carved stone and glazed terra-cotta tiles. The most common creature depicted on building façades in this style was the lion's head. It represents strength, courage and nobility, and can be found in various poses and adaptations.
Similar French-influenced styles, such as Classical Revival, popular from 1910 to 1938, introduced reptiles. The French Chateauesque and the Neo-Gothic styles incorporated grotesque creatures including the imaginary griffin, a cross between an eagle and a lion.
Art Deco, popular from 1925 to 1937, introduced bronze castings in addition to stone carving as a new medium in which to portray winged creatures such as stylized eagles, peacocks and sphinxes. Public buildings for merchants and farmer's markets often incorporated animal forms such as sheep, steers or bison as symbols of a robust commerce and harvest. A ram's head located on other types of buildings symbolized wisdom, power, strength and a defender of right. Other creatures gracing the façades of buildings include owls, horses, dogs, cats, jaguars, foxes, rabbits, lambs, salamanders and cattle."

http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/755095_Don-t-blink--Faces-and-figures-watch-from-facades.html
Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 12:19pm
GrimoireA3,

Let me repeat myself again......THERE IS NO SUCH MASONIC EMBLEM. WE DO NOT HAVE A CORNUCOPIA WITH.A RAM OR GOAT HEAD ATTACHED TO IT!!!

I don't mean to be rude, but you have posted the same question three times with everyone telling you it's not a Masonic emblem.
Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2013 at 11:30am
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

GrimoireA3,

Let me repeat myself again......THERE IS NO SUCH MASONIC EMBLEM. WE DO NOT HAVE A CORNUCOPIA WITH.A RAM OR GOAT HEAD ATTACHED TO IT!!!


Hi GAmastermason,
 
My questin was why is there a Ram's attached to a Cornucopia?  The Cornucopia is definately a Masonic 'Jewel' as described in Freemasons for Dummies, pgs. 101-102 for the senior and junior Stewards.  So why is there a Ram's head attached to the bottom? Obviously it is a composite.
 
Now I just researched that the Architect who designed this really cool memorial was Mr. Henry Bacon - a Freemason.  The artist, Mr. Daniel Chester French, was following the design of a Mason.
 
Also my research has led me to a definate distinction between a goat head and a Ram's head for Freemasonry - goat heads have nothing at all to do with Freemasonry.  That's important information to counter the specious accusations of the anti-Masonic crowd.
 
But the Ram's head has a connotation with Freemasonry through Osiris.  A very good connotation because none of the Ram gods of ancient Egypt had anything to do with evil or dark purposes (that was Set and Anubis); all the Ram gods were benevolent and connected with light and the transportation of the soul of Osiris.
 
So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia?
 
 
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2013 at 11:34am
Originally posted by LGustavson LGustavson wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial??

Have we considered the notion that someone simply liked how it looked?
 
Hi LGustavson,
 
That is a possibility.  But my first impressions of the Freemason fraternity is that they are an extremely pragmatic bunch and don't do anything without purpose.  The architect who designed the memorial, Henry Bacon, was a Freemason.
 
 
MASONS HAVE NATIONAL TREASURES TOO!
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2013 at 11:37am
Hi Masonic Truths,
 
Thank you for the effort and sharing your research.
 
Also, the architect who designed the memorial, Henry French, was a Freemason.
 
 
Masons Have National Treasures Too
 
 
And that is the point, that there is a fantastic Memorial sitting in the Boston Public Garden which I have sat near for over forty years and I had no idea it was an example of Freemason art and architecture.  I just found out recently and  It needs to be recognized and celebrated.
 
P.S.  Again, I am not a Mason.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2013 at 3:10pm
The Cornucopia is definately a Masonic 'Jewel'

Yes, but it is not only a Masonic symbol. It has been used by many ancient groups.


So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia?

The Ram's head is not used in Blue Lodge Masonry as has been pointed out to you. Maybe it is used in York Rite or Scottish Rite. The fact that the designer was a Mason and the symbols may be used in Masonry does not automatically mean that the statue is Masonic or has a Masonic meaning.

...there is a fantastic Memorial sitting in the Boston Public Garden which I have sat near for over forty years and I had no idea it was an example of Freemason art and architecture...

Where exactly in the Public Gardens is this statue you look at ? I'd like to have a look at it myself.

Why are you convinced these things you are referring to are Masonic?


Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2013 at 8:22pm
@ GrimoireA3
 
Following up with Brother Droche's comment above. I am a member of the York Rite and Scottish Rite also. There is not a Ram's head emblem in those Masonic bodies either.
 
We all agree that the cornucopia is the emblem of the Stewards of the Blue Lodge. We all agree that the cornucopia is ancient and not exclusive to Freemasonry. The all seeing eye isn't exclusive to us either. We share many emblems with ancient cultures and organizations.
 
I am a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason our emblem is a Double Headed Eagle, but it came from the ancient Sumerian culture and has been used by different groups. The emblem was used by the Russian Empire, Holy Roman Empire, etc among many others! Heck its used as the emblem on the Medieval Times Restaurant lol.
 
The Knight Templar use the Passion Cross as its emblem. The Cross has been used by hundreds of organizations, churches and groups to proclaim Christ for over 2,000 years.
 
Like I have said before. I don't know why there is a cornucopia with a ram's head attached...it has nothing to do with Freemasonry. For what ever reason, you are trying to make it into something that it is not.  
 
End rant


Edited by GAmastermason - June/10/2013 at 8:27pm
Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 11:43am
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

@ GrimoireA3
 
Following up with Brother Droche's comment above. I am a member of the York Rite and Scottish Rite also. There is not a Ram's head emblem in those Masonic bodies either.
 
Yes, I am having difficulty in locating a Rams head image in any of the old Freemason manuals or books.  But there is mention of Ram's heads in all the adjacent philosophies/ideologies used by the Craft, such as Pythagoras's hieroglyphic of the Rams head to denote power and fertility.
 
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

We all agree that the cornucopia is the emblem of the Stewards of the Blue Lodge. We all agree that the cornucopia is ancient and not exclusive to Freemasonry. The all seeing eye isn't exclusive to us either. We share many emblems with ancient cultures and organizations.
 
Yes, thank you for that.  I came up with the same observation.
 
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

I am a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason our emblem is a Double Headed Eagle, but it came from the ancient Sumerian culture and has been used by different groups. The emblem was used by the Russian Empire, Holy Roman Empire, etc among many others! Heck its used as the emblem on the Medieval Times Restaurant lol.
 
Impressive set of credentials.  Again, which is why I am on a Freemason site asking questions from the experts.  Yet I too have a set of expert credentials particularly when it comes to doing research (a Masters degree in History).  And my research on this particular Ram's headed cornucopia is starting to bring about some interesting set of facts.
 
 
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

Like I have said before. I don't know why there is a cornucopia with a ram's head attached...it has nothing to do with Freemasonry. For what ever reason, you are trying to make it into something that it is not.
 
Actually I am not trying to make it out of something it is not, since it does exist and it was designed by an architect who was a Mason - Henry Bacon.  And Boston was a hotbed of Freemason activity and influence in the late 1800s (and that is not a bad thing).  Right now I am puzzling out a lot of related information which I will write out on this forum (if relative). 
 
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

End rant
 
Not a rant at all, but some interesting research and some clarification - thank you.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 11:57am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

The Cornucopia is definately a Masonic 'Jewel'

Yes, but it is not only a Masonic symbol. It has been used by many ancient groups.


So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia?

The Ram's head is not used in Blue Lodge Masonry as has been pointed out to you. Maybe it is used in York Rite or Scottish Rite. The fact that the designer was a Mason and the symbols may be used in Masonry does not automatically mean that the statue is Masonic or has a Masonic meaning.

...there is a fantastic Memorial sitting in the Boston Public Garden which I have sat near for over forty years and I had no idea it was an example of Freemason art and architecture...

Where exactly in the Public Gardens is this statue you look at ? I'd like to have a look at it myself.

Why are you convinced these things you are referring to are Masonic?


Hi Droche,
 
The memorial which I am researching is the Angel of the Waters dedication to George White located just across the street from the 'Cheers' Bull & Finch pub.  I was just sitting there again this morning before I came here to the Boston Public Library/Copley square.
 
To answer a very good question: Why am I convinced these things I am researching are Masonic?  I am basing my opinion on some of these excellent scholarly works on Freemasonry that I am learning:
 
1. 'WASHINGTON ALLSTON, SECRET SOCIETIES, AND THE ALCHEMY OF ANGLO-AMERICAN PAINTING' (1997) by David Bjelajac
 
2. 'THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study' (1991) by James Stevens Curl
 
3. MASONIC SYMBOLISM. (1939) by Charles Clyde Hunt
Laurence Press, Co.  Cedar Rapids, Iowa
 
4. 'MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual, architecture, and masculine Archetypes' (c. 2006) by William D. Moore.
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Non-Scholarly Works:
 
MASONIC SYMBOLS IN aMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS (1976)
National Heritage Museum, Lexington, MA.
 
'FREEMASONRY AND THE NEOCLASSIC STYLE IN AMERICA' , Antiques magazine, (Feb. 1960)
 
 
All the evidence points that the memorial found in the Boston Public Garden is indicative of Masonic Art and Architecture (in fact the architect was a Mason) embodying both the Neoclassic and Mannerist styles of Freemason allegory and metaphor.
 
It appears that Freemasonry has its own: Art, Architecture, Music, Prayers, Ideology, and a distinctive way of expressing those values.  None of it bad.
 
But to deny that the Angel of the Waters memorial in Boston Public Garden is not Masonic is really denying all the blatant evidence.  And yes there are a bunch of works of art scattered throughout the Public Garden and Boston Common that are not Masonic, but there are quite a few that are.
 
This is the basis of my educated conjecture.Geek
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by CAMB.MASON CAMB.MASON wrote:

Perhaps brother Grimoire, find out who the caster was of the monument.  Even thou he, Brother White was a Mason, the caster may have taken liberties when making the drawings and cast, adding to his masterpiece.  Perhaps the Boston Public Library may offer further information on this piece of work  in the Gardens.  Maybe Daniel French was a Mason as well, he being the scupltor.
 
 
Hi Camb.Mason,
 
Thank you for that suggestion.
 
But I discovered that the architect of that monument, Mr. Henry Bacon, was a Mason.
 
 
So it is a beautiful work of art done by the sculptor Daniel Chester French who followed the Masonic design of a Freemason architect, Mr. Henry Bacon.  I have not yet discovered whether Mr. French was a Mason, but he gradutate from MIT which is a very Masonic university.
 
So far I am connecting some very interesting dots regarding that fantastic piece of Neoclassic art work!.  And am learning more and more about the Craft as I go along.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial??


Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

First of all you are operating on a false premise. The White monument is not a Freemason memorial. I do not know if White was a Freemason or not, but the purpose of the monument is to celebrate him as a Philanthropist. The inscription on the monument is "A public spirited citizen whose great gift to the City of Boston provided for the creation of works of public utility and beauty for the use and enjoyment of the inhabitants."
 
Hi Masonic.Truths,
 
I'm not trying to contradict you or anything, but my research has shown a definite Masonic connection to that memorial - AND THAT IS A GOOD THING!  The architect of that monument was the mason Mr. Henry Bacon, and the monument is rife with Masonic imagery and metaphor, and again there is nothing at all bad about it.  What I want to know is why is there a Rams Head connected to the end of the Cornucopia.  And the Cornucopia is definately a Masonic
image.  Nothing wrong or bad about that either.  Freemasonry should be celebrated here in Boston as it was done in 1895 - 1912!


"Near the Beacon-Arlington corner stands the beautiful angel monument and fountain honoring George Robert White, one of Boston’s greatest benefactors. When he died in 1922, his will included a charitable trust for public art, with $50,000 set aside for his own memorial. Erected in 1924, the monument is the last of the many collaborations by the sculptor Daniel Chester French and architect Henry Bacon. Symbolizing White’s largesse are the two cornucopias that feed the cobbled granite pool and the graceful bronze angel “casting bread upon the waters.”

http://friendsofthepublicgarden.org/our-parks/public-garden/sculpture-memorials/

There is no mention of him being a Freemason or Freemason symbols.

The Cornucopia and Rams heads were commonly used in Sculpture and Architecture during this period.



http://books.google.com/books?id=GbDEc5-VNuMC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Paul+Wayland+Bartlett+and+Daniel+Chester+French&source=bl&ots=0N2w69mJAE&sig=FYtKB_BzCNGCxET3ohuU-_Kh80o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_fGxUfKpI8vk4AOY8YD4Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Paul%20Wayland%20Bartlett%20and%20Daniel%20Chester%20French&f=false

"The Library’s rear terrace, designed by Thomas Hastings includes classical ornaments such as garlands, urns, and ram’s heads. This is the site of the William Cullen Bryant Memorial. Bryant (1794-1878) was a newspaper editor, one of America’s most popular poets, and a civic improver who led the campaign to create Central Park. Herbert Adams, one of the best New York sculptors of his period, created the bronze figure of Bryant. The memorial was dedicated in 1911, at the completion of the library."

http://www.bryantpark.org/things-to-do/monuments.html

"The lavish decorative bronze cap at the base of the flagstaff includes garlands and rams heads, and was sculpted by Paul Wayland Bartlett (1865-1925)."


http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/madisonsquarepark/monuments/961


"Certain styles of architecture made abundant use of highly carved decoration as part of the street façade. The French-influenced Beaux Arts style, popular from 1880 to 1920, made extensive use of sculpture and elaborate ornamentation in both carved stone and glazed terra-cotta tiles. The most common creature depicted on building façades in this style was the lion's head. It represents strength, courage and nobility, and can be found in various poses and adaptations.
Similar French-influenced styles, such as Classical Revival, popular from 1910 to 1938, introduced reptiles. The French Chateauesque and the Neo-Gothic styles incorporated grotesque creatures including the imaginary griffin, a cross between an eagle and a lion.
Art Deco, popular from 1925 to 1937, introduced bronze castings in addition to stone carving as a new medium in which to portray winged creatures such as stylized eagles, peacocks and sphinxes. Public buildings for merchants and farmer's markets often incorporated animal forms such as sheep, steers or bison as symbols of a robust commerce and harvest. A ram's head located on other types of buildings symbolized wisdom, power, strength and a defender of right. Other creatures gracing the façades of buildings include owls, horses, dogs, cats, jaguars, foxes, rabbits, lambs, salamanders and cattle."

http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/755095_Don-t-blink--Faces-and-figures-watch-from-facades.html
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 1:08pm
Brethren,   You are dealing with a person who thinks there is a conspiracy to hide Masonic secrets within the monument.    No matter how hard you try to tell him the symbols are not excursive to Freemasonry, the more he is convinced that his interpretations are correct.  So what a number of men involved in its construction were Freemasons.   I would have been more surprised if none of the men were Freemasons.

His 'connect the dots' logic is flawed. He has skipped a couple of lines and dots.   ... He has yet to find the owner's criteria for commissioning the monument and the reason they selected the sculptor Daniel Chester French to design it.   He has not obtained the sculptor French's description of the monument and how it full fills the owner's requirements.  Until this is obtained any interpretation on his part is pure speculation and another Masonic Conspiracy.
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
NobleShabba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March/11/2012
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 723
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Brethren,   You are dealing with a person who thinks there is a conspiracy to hide Masonic secrets within the monument.    No matter how hard you try to tell him the symbols are not excursive to Freemasonry, the more he is convinced that his interpretations are correct.  So what a number of men involved in its construction were Freemasons.   I would have been more surprised if none of the men were Freemasons.

His 'connect the dots' logic is flawed. He has skipped a couple of lines and dots.   ... He has yet to find the owner's criteria for commissioning the monument and the reason they selected the sculptor Daniel Chester French to design it.   He has not obtained the sculptor French's description of the monument and how it full fills the owner's requirements.  Until this is obtained any interpretation on his part is pure speculation and another Masonic Conspiracy.
 
Or, in the immortal words of Flava-Flav...
 
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 2:09pm
Hey, who's in chage of guarding our treasure of gold this month?  The Grand PooBa didn't sent me a schedule this time.   ... Anyway it is about time to move it again .... 
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 I am basing my opinion on some of these excellent scholarly works on Freemasonry that I am learning:
 
1. 'WASHINGTON ALLSTON, SECRET SOCIETIES, AND THE ALCHEMY OF ANGLO-AMERICAN PAINTING' (1997) by David Bjelajac
 
2. 'THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study' (1991) by James Stevens Curl
 
3. MASONIC SYMBOLISM. (1939) by Charles Clyde Hunt
Laurence Press, Co.  Cedar Rapids, Iowa
 
4. 'MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual, architecture, and masculine Archetypes' (c. 2006) by William D. Moore.
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Non-Scholarly Works:
 
MASONIC SYMBOLS IN aMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS (1976)
National Heritage Museum, Lexington, MA.
 
'FREEMASONRY AND THE NEOCLASSIC STYLE IN AMERICA' , Antiques magazine, (Feb. 1960)
 
 


Do any of the works you listed actually state that the statues/memorials you are examining are Masonic? If so can you  quote them and the pages they are on?

Here's the thing- If they were Masonic, I would think that the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts would have mentioned them somewhere along the way. To the best of my knowledge, and I have 31 active years in the Craft, they have not.  I could have missed something though and at this point I am not saying you are wrong, but up to this point,  I do not believe that you have submitted enough evidence. Unlike edmax, I do not necessarily think you see a conspiracy, but it does look like you have missed a few dots, as he put it.


Edited by droche - June/11/2013 at 3:37pm
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/11/2013 at 6:08pm
By the way, and this might be where edmax gets the idea you see a conspiracy- if you think that there is a Masonic theme to these statues and memorials but that we are trying to keep that a secret, that would be absolutely wrong. It just isn't like that. There would be no need for us to do so.
Back to Top
coach View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: October/23/2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Status: Offline
Points: 959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 6:43am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial??

In Freemasonry, things get hidden in plain sight all the time that provide information to the informed while leaving the uninformed questioning and bewildered.

Although it appears that the symbol of the R.A.M should not be there when comparing other Symbols that are more standard, and that it appears out of place with other symbols used to communicate within Freemasonic lore, mythology and legend, if you look closely and Perpend carefully all that has been revealed in the rendering, the symbol discloses the artist's thoughts on the connection between the Cornucopia and a specific Masonic path.

You must pay close attention to the man behind the curtain. This is what doing the Work that is pointed out within the first three Degrees is designed to develop within you. The ability to see things that other less informed individuals cannot.

Those who have done the Work, see!

RE: Why did the artist include it? The simple answer is that he chose to. Freemasonry does not dictate what a artist can render. If anything, it frees up the artist to render things in more veiled ways. You assume that a Freemasonic craftsman is constrained by your preconceived notions as to what is acceptable to Freemasonry and what is not. When you do, you assume wrongfully.

Edited by coach - June/12/2013 at 6:46am
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

Books I Wrote | My FB Wall
Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 154
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 7:20am
A ram is not used as a Masonic symbol.
 
Although here in England I once heard a young Mason described as randy as a goat.
Back to Top
GaLightSeeker View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: January/11/2013
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 96
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaLightSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 8:24am
It wasn't this guy was it?




Edited by GaLightSeeker - June/12/2013 at 8:27am
E - 5 Feb 2013
P - 2 Apr 2013
R - 16 Apr 2013
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6447
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 8:41am
A description of the fountain - monument  can be read at http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white_pg/dcfrench_white_pg.html   ... I would say the monument is a fitting tribute to a man who's generously & freely gave large gifts to Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, Massachusetts General Hospital and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy; and though his Trust, is still giving to the people of Boston.  Therefore, Georgia Robert White is being portrayed as being the Angle or having the spirit of the Angle.

I think originally, this Angle was 'sowing seeds' upon the ground which would sprout and provide for the future; but in the fountain setting, this easy translated into 'casting bread upon the waters'.  Thus the same allegory as 'sowing seeds'.     The Cornucopia being "horn of plenty is a symbol of abundance and nourishment".   ... In my opinion, this element can very well represent the 'George Robert White Trust Fund' which continues to provide for the city and people of Boston to this day.   ... The Ram's head at the end of the Cornucopia is an artistic element to complete the allusion & allegory of the  Cornucopia of 'Plenty' with an unending flow of water (Plenty) into the fountain (city & people of Boston).

There is another monument (sister to this one) erected to Georgia Robert White. It is the 'Angle of Peace'.  ... http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white/dcfrench_white.html

As stated several times above. while the elements of the monument are also used as symbols in Freemasonry, they are not exclusive to Freemasonry.   The symbolism & allegory is the same as represented by Greek & Roman mythology (the Classics).  This monument is to a Man and not to Freemasonry.   ... However, I am glad to call George Robert White a Brother.

The symbolism and tribute of the monument is very simple.  There is no hidden meaning or secrets here.


Edited by edwmax - June/12/2013 at 8:47am
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
NobleShabba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March/11/2012
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 723
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:03am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia?
 
Again, despite your earlier denials this sounds like fishing for content for a book.
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:38am
Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia?
 
Again, despite your earlier denials this sounds like fishing for content for a book.
 
Hi NobleShabba,
 
In all honesty I have no intention at all in writing a book on Freemasonry.   Again, if I were to write a book at all it would be in an area of my expertise, which is Forced Busing in Boston.
 
"BUT" Exclamation to tell you all the truth, I am so interested in this subject and have accumulated so much material in the past two months that I would love to do a paper and submit it to the Masons for review!  Again, I am not trying to spill the beans, or dig up 'secrets', or do any intentional harm to Masonry.  I have no reason for that at all.
 
And actually I  would like to get on with my life, this interest in Masonry has detoured me from my original research on bible history (which is how I became aware of Masonry in the first place, I came across a 'Masonic Bible').  So as soon as I satisfy my curiosity on the Craft, especially here in Boston, the sooner I go back to normal.
 
So why do Masons use the King James bible?  What is the connection with Rams to Masonry?  Why is there a Rams head stuck on the end of a Cornucopia on an obviously Masonic memorial in the Boston Public Garden?  Questions, questions, questions......
 
 
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:45am
Ok ok....I decided to spill all the Masonic secrets. The cornucopia with the rams head is how we identify our secret monuments. We have hidden the secret Knights Templar treasure all around the world. To figure out how to open the monument with the emblem. The instructions are in secret code in all Masonic King James Bible. If you aren't high enough in rank we give you a different Bible. There are your answers..,.thanks for making me crack asking the same question over and over.
Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:56am
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

Ok ok....I decided to spill all the Masonic secrets. The cornucopia with the rams head is how we identify our secret monuments. We have hidden the secret Knights Templar treasure all around the world. To figure out how to open the monument with the emblem. The instructions are in secret code in all Masonic King James Bible. If you aren't high enough in rank we give you a different Bible. There are your answers..,.thanks for making me crack asking the same question over and over.
 
But I'm not interested in any Masonic secrets?At a loss  I don't want to know the lastest Masonic cipers, or the most recent hand-shakes or grips, I don't want access to the current membership of world wide Masonry.
 
I am just very interested in a public memorial in the Boston Public Garden which I have visited countless times in my life and the symbolism of a Rams head on the Cornucopia?  That is a public memorial subject to public scrutiny - nothing secret about that at all. 
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:04am
Originally posted by GaLightSeeker GaLightSeeker wrote:

It wasn't this guy was it?


 
Hi GaLightSeeker,
 
 
Just to let you know, I am not a Mason yet I am very interested in Freemasonry.  I am a life long resident of Boston, MA. (South Boston) and have recently discovered that Boston has had a very active Freemason history.
 
According to my reseach: 1. Goats are not Rams; 2. Freemasonry has nothing to do with Goats; 3. Freemasonry has nothing to do with the devil or devil worship or satan or anything 'evil' as a matter of fact; 4. Freemasonry has a connection with the Ram through Osiris, and through King Solomon who had Ram-headed sphinxes lining the stairway of his personal home: House of the Forest of Lebanon; 5. All the Ram gods of the ancient near east were the good guys, all benevolent and helpful.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:07am
The only person who knows the symbolism of the monument is the sculptor. You keep referring to the emblems as Masonic, but you keep pushing the issue. No one here sculpted the monument. The symbol as you are describing it is not Masonic.

I think you are looking for Masonic secrets. Otherwise, why would to be interested in Masonry??!
Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

A description of the fountain - monument  can be read at http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white_pg/dcfrench_white_pg.html   ... I would say the monument is a fitting tribute to a man who's generously & freely gave large gifts to Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, Massachusetts General Hospital and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy; and though his Trust, is still giving to the people of Boston.  Therefore, Georgia Robert White is being portrayed as being the Angle or having the spirit of the Angle.

I think originally, this Angle was 'sowing seeds' upon the ground which would sprout and provide for the future; but in the fountain setting, this easy translated into 'casting bread upon the waters'.  Thus the same allegory as 'sowing seeds'.     The Cornucopia being "horn of plenty is a symbol of abundance and nourishment".   ... In my opinion, this element can very well represent the 'George Robert White Trust Fund' which continues to provide for the city and people of Boston to this day.   ... The Ram's head at the end of the Cornucopia is an artistic element to complete the allusion & allegory of the  Cornucopia of 'Plenty' with an unending flow of water (Plenty) into the fountain (city & people of Boston).

There is another monument (sister to this one) erected to Georgia Robert White. It is the 'Angle of Peace'.  ... http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white/dcfrench_white.html

As stated several times above. while the elements of the monument are also used as symbols in Freemasonry, they are not exclusive to Freemasonry.   The symbolism & allegory is the same as represented by Greek & Roman mythology (the Classics).  This monument is to a Man and not to Freemasonry.   ... However, I am glad to call George Robert White a Brother.

The symbolism and tribute of the monument is very simple.  There is no hidden meaning or secrets here.
 
Hi edwmax,
 
Thank you so much for that information.  That was very nice of you to put in the effort and locate some info that is helpful to me.  Really appreciate it.  Again, I am on the side of Freemasonry.  That particular public memorial is a Boston monument which I've always liked.  And if the memorial turns out to be specifically Freemason, why all the secrecy?  That would be a bragging point and probably boost the membership applications?  I think my hometown, Boston, is that much more special because of the large and active presence of Freemasonry from 1870-1935.  I would really like to see another Freemason Parade in downtown Boston like they did in 1898!!  (For crying out loud they just had a huge homosexual 'Gay Day' Parade this past Saturday in Boston which I find incredibly offensive and off-kilter).  Boston seems to have had a very proud Freemason population which in my humble opinion needs to be revived. (sorry for the rant).
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:25am
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

The only person who knows the symbolism of the monument is the sculptor. You keep referring to the emblems as Masonic, but you keep pushing the issue. No one here sculpted the monument. The symbol as you are describing it is not Masonic.
Hi GAmastermason,
 
Actually the guy who designed that particular Neoclassic work of art was the architect, Mr. Henry Bacon, who was a Mason.  The sculptor, Mr. Daniel Chester French, was a graduate of MIT and he just followed the design of the Freemason designer.
 
 
Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

I think you are looking for Masonic secrets. Otherwise, why would to be interested in Masonry??!
 
No sir.  I am not seeking Masonic secrets.  I am very interested in that particular sculpture here in the Boston Public Garden because my interest has been piqued regarding it.  I have only admired that memorial countless times in my 56 years here in Boston, and in my recent research it was brought out in a scholarly book 'THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study' (1991) by James Stevens Curl (MIT libraries); and 'Freemasonry and the Neoclassic style in America' Antiques magazine  (Feb. 1960), that Boston Freemasons between 1870 and 1935 chose the Neoclassic school of Art to express their Masonic tastes in art and sculpture and left their excellent taste all through the Boston area, including the architecture of MIT itself. 
 
And that preference for the Neoclassic school of Art is clearly demonstrated by the memorial Angel of the Waters found in the Boston Public Garden.  And I am simply research some questions I hav asked myself (and am coming up with some good answers).
 
So I really have no hidden agenda or anything like that.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: MA.
Status: Offline
Points: 230
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:41am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Again, I am not a Mason, just extremely interested in the subject.
 
I found this in relation to a Ram's head and Freemasonry: another dot to connect.
 
 
It seems the Ram god of Egypt -- Banebdjedet --  is closely associated with Osiris, which is fascinating in and of itself.  A deity of fertility, power, and immortality.
 
Just to clarify on some new information proving 'goat riding' within the Freemason fraternity is a huge myth:
 
Please read the book:  BURLESQUE PARAPHERNALIA AND SIDE DEGREE SPECIALTIES AND COSTUMES CATALOG NO. 439 (2010) Fantagraphic Books, Introduction by Mr. Charles Schneider, Freemason.
 
This is a catalog from the DeMoulin Brothers Company, Greenville, Ill., founded in 1892, which manufactured mechanical goats and all sorts of gags and props for the many fraternities in existance at that time (such as the Oddfellow, or the Junior Order of United American Mechanics, or Improved Order of Red Men, or Knights of Maccabees, or Knights of Pythias, or the Freemasons).
 
The point being that:  1. Goats have nothing at all to do with Freemasonry; 2. it was a common practice amongst other fraternaties to ride a goat (as well as dozens of other stunts and gags) as part of their inititations; 3. Instead of a mechanical goat, for an extra $10 you could order a mechanical Horse, Donkey, Tiger, or a Camel body rather than a goat.
 
So the 'goat' was not specific to any fraternity nor did it have any specific connotation.
 
The anti-Masons who tried to link goat riding with satainc worship made a donkey of themselves with such a specious and superficial argument.  Again, goats have nothing to do with Masonry.
Please Note: I am not a Mason.
Back to Top
GaLightSeeker View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: January/11/2013
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 96
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaLightSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 12:20pm
Hi Grim,

Sorry, the pic was actually a reference to Brother Martin's post about the randy goat guy. I should have added quotes. The links you posted were very interesting though.

I would tend to agree with the other brothers about the symbolism. Although, it is an important part of Masonry, it's not nearly as important as most non-Masons make it out to be.
E - 5 Feb 2013
P - 2 Apr 2013
R - 16 Apr 2013
Back to Top
masonic.truths View Drop Down
Muzzled
Muzzled
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 1:36pm
This has gone from the ridiculous to the absurd. You have not posted one iota of evidence that the White Memorial is "an obviously Masonic memorial".

It appears the logic you are using to come to that conclusion is:

Henry Bacon was a Freemason.
Henry Bacon designed the memorial.
∴ The memorial is a Masonic memorial.

This is the same logic used by the Masonic Conspiracy nuts that say Washington D C streets are laid out to create Masonic symbols.

Do you think all of these are "obviously Masonic memorials"? They were also designed by Henry Bacon.

Architectural settings, bases and exedra for sculpture

Commodore George Hamilton Perkins, (1902), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, New Hampshire State House, Concord, New Hampshire
Col. James Anderson Monument, (1904), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Allegheny Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
August Robert Meyer Memorial, (1909) Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Kansas City, Missouri
Prehn Mausoleum, (1912) Karl Bitter sculptor, carved by the Piccirilli Brothers, Cedar Lawn Cemetery, Paterson, New Jersey
Abraham Lincoln (1912 statue) by Daniel Chester French, Lincoln, Nebraska,1912.
Carl Schurz Monument, (1913) Karl Bitter sculptor, Morningside Park, New York City
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Monument, (1914), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Longfellow Park, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lafayette Monument, (1917), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Prospect Park, Brooklyn, New York
Depew Memorial Fountain, (1919), Karl Bitter and Alexander Stirling Calder sculptors, University Park, Indianapolis, Indiana
Russell Alger Memorial Fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Grand Circus Park, Detroit, Michigan
Dupont Circle fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Dupont Circle, Washington, D.C.
Alexander Hamilton Monument, (1923), James Earle Fraser sculptor, Washington D.C.
Jesse Parker Williams Memorial, (c. 1924), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Westview Cemetery, Atlanta, Georgia
American Revolutionary War Memorial, (c. 1915), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Jno. Williams, Inc. (NY) founder, Danville, Illinois

http://www.reference.com/browse/henry+bacon

Edit: My research shows that Russell Alger and Jesse Parker Williams were also Freemasons.

Edited by masonic.truths - June/12/2013 at 1:59pm
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 3:21pm
Grimoire, I do not understand why you insist that some things are which we say aren't. You seem to be stuck on the premise that the ram's head is a Masonic symbol. It is not. You seem to be stuck on the premise that Freemasonry has a connection to the Egyptian god Osiris. It does not. If you want to learn about Freemasonry you need to get off these things because if you remain stuck on them your learning will stall and not recover.  My advice is accept the fact that the memorial in the Public Gardens is not Masonic and move on.
Back to Top
GAmastermason View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: November/18/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAmastermason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 3:26pm
@ masonic.truths,
 
I am with you brother!! This post is getting so old. Even when we try to help he doesn't listen. That's when I went on my absurd story about secret monuments with a secret code in the Masonic King James Bibles. My made up story has about a much validity as his "research".
 
If he isn't a Mason, doesn't want to know the secrets, doesn't want to be a Mason.....then what is the point?? Why ask us to "interpret" masonic emblems for him??
 
He does not understand that Masonry is perceived differently to Masons and Non-Masons alike. I used to wear a Rosary around my neck??  I wore it because I am a Christian and like the design, but I am not Catholic....but wearing it?? Did it make me Catholic??? Nope!!
 
Past Master
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past Eminent Commander
Past Worthy Patron OES
Yaarab Shriner
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03
Copyright ©2001-2011 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.110 seconds.