HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol

What evidence do you have that George Robert White and Henry Bacon were Freemasons? I am not saying they were not, but I can not find anything on the internet that says White was a Freemason, and the only thing I find that says Henry Bacon was is in the article you referenced http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/.

If you have evidence of their Masonic Membership please post the information such as the Lodge they were members of, degree dates, any information as far as their contributions to Freemasonry such as offices held.

Grimoire,

What exactly does the MASONIC SYMBOLS IN AMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS say about the memorial in the Public Gardens? Also the MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine Archetypes (2005) BY Julius Ruiz and  THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study (1991) by James Steven Curl?

GrimoireA3 wrote: DoctorAramis wrote: goomba wrote: The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol. I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.   Hi DoctorAramis,   Probably my fault (I am not a Mason just to let you know).  I realize that the Freemasons did not invent the Cornucopia but have utilized it as a 'symbol' within their 'Craft' (and that is a good thing).  My question is why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden? [QUOTE=DoctorAramis]In my mind the is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?     Its not a 'Chinese' symbol generally, but a TAOIST symbol specifically.  Taoism is the indigenous religion of China.  Buddhism was imported into China from the West.  The Taoists and the Buddhists have been violent rivals within China for over 500 years.

GrimoireA3 wrote: coach wrote: Ram 4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy. My 2 Cents, Coach N PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-)   Hi Coach,   Your excellent observation is fitting in with my research so far.  Thank you for that.   Lemma: As I learn more about the history of Freemasonry via my research on the Ram's headed cornucopia I may have grasped an aspect of the Craft that was, at the time, "Spurious Masonry" prior to the merging of Speculative and Operative at the construction of King So-lo-mon's Temple.   Also, Pythagoras seems to have used the Cornucopia as a symbol for abundance just as Pythagoras used the Beaver as a symbol for Noah (as sometimes Masons had referred to themselves as Noahites) because the ark lifted the initiate to a higher level of light.  This would exlpain the two Beavers on the outside wall of the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street, and why MIT's mascot is the Beaver and why the MIT 'brass rat' is a Beaver.   So the Ram may have been an important symbol in Spurious Masonry, but it might be a hold-over within Operative and Speculative Freemasonry???

So if you want to consider the cornucopia a Masonic symbol, fine, it is a Masonic symbol to you. I don't see that it is worth debating.

droche wrote: DoctorAramis wrote: goomba wrote: The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.   I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little. In my mind the is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?   I think what he meant was that the cornucopia symbol did not originate with the Masons. Just like the treasurers symbol is crossed keys, those aren't Masonic symbols; they are used in other institutions and originated in other institutions.

Yes that is exactly what I mean.

DoctorAramis wrote: goomba wrote: The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.   I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little. In my mind the is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?

It is a symbol used by Masons to symbolize the Stewards.  However, the Masonic lodge did not create the cornucopia.  Like the volume of sacred law. It is a symbol of the revelation of deity to man used by the lodge.  I am a Christian Mason so my VSL is the Holy Bible.  The lodge uses the Holy Bible but the Holy Bible is not of Masonic origins.  Ergo the Holy Bible is a symbol used by Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol. 

goomba wrote: The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.

 

GrimoireA3 wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: droche wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: Hi droche,   I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper.    But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing. I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so.   Hi droche,   Yes, the onus probandi is definately on me which is why I've cited or listed every piece of info I am able onto this formum for public consumption.    Yet I am still too computer illiterate to be able to post pages off of Freemason Manuals dated 1856 to 1907 with Lithographic drawings: for example: The Freemason's Manual (1852) by K. J. Stewart, contains on page 52 a lithograph etching of a small pedastal with the Holy Bible opened on the top, with a large Square and Compass emblem on the front and three Rams heads holding up the Holy Bible.  Getting a copy of this page onto this forum is beyond me (you can view it on http:www.books.google.com).   Here's another example: a copy of a 1939 Masonic Bible by Kirchner has several illustrations in the front, one of those illustrations is of The House of the Forest of Lebanon with six large Ram headed sphinxes going up the steps.  Why would King So-lo-mon have Ram sphinxes on the fron porch of his residence?  And again, it is beyond me to transfer that illustration from a Masonic Bible to this forum.  Though you can view that same illustration on the web. http://www.honorofkings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/House-of-the-Forest-of-Lebanon.jpg   And again, up in Canada a new Masonic Temple was built with several Rams Heads on the front fence and gate.  Now why are Freemasons using a Rams head since So-lo-mon??  Those huge Ram sphinxes on So-lo-mon's front porch three thousand years ago had nothing to do with artistic embellishment, they had a specific meaning and purpose which I think has embeded into Freemasonry.   Egyptian Rams specifically, not the Roman nor Greek interpretation.   It isn't that Freemasons are just randomly using a Rams head as an artistic device, it is very obvious that the Rams head has significance to Freemasonry.  And it is at this point the guessing begins - anywhere from the lost phallus of Osiris to the soul bearer of Osiris or some other symbolism.  I just think it would important to know for academic advancement - and nothing more. Those Cornucopia with a Rams head stuck at the bottom look too uncomfortably like a large Phallus to be ignored - as well as all those goblets: Roman pagan phallic symbols which have nothing to do with Freemasonry.

GrimoireA3 wrote: droche wrote: GrimoireA3 wrote: Hi droche,   I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper.    But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing. I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so.   Hi droche,   Yes, the onus probandi is definately on me which is why I've cited or listed every piece of info I am able onto this formum for public consumption.    Yet I am still too computer illiterate to be able to post pages off of Freemason Manuals dated 1856 to 1907 with Lithographic drawings: for example: The Freemason's Manual (1852) by K. J. Stewart, contains on page 52 a lithograph etching of a small pedastal with the Holy Bible opened on the top, with a large Square and Compass emblem on the front and three Rams heads holding up the Holy Bible.  Getting a copy of this page onto this forum is beyond me (you can view it on http:www.books.google.com).   Here's another example: a copy of a 1939 Masonic Bible by Kirchner has several illustrations in the front, one of those illustrations is of The House of the Forest of Lebanon with six large Ram headed sphinxes going up the steps.  Why would King So-lo-mon have Ram sphinxes on the fron porch of his residence?  And again, it is beyond me to transfer that illustration from a Masonic Bible to this forum.  Though you can view that same illustration on the web. http://www.honorofkings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/House-of-the-Forest-of-Lebanon.jpg   And again, up in Canada a new Masonic Temple was built with several Rams Heads on the front fence and gate.  Now why are Freemasons using a Rams head since So-lo-mon??  Those huge Ram sphinxes on So-lo-mon's front porch three thousand years ago had nothing to do with artistic embellishment, they had a specific meaning and purpose which I think has embeded into Freemasonry.   Egyptian Rams specifically, not the Roman nor Greek interpretation.   It isn't that Freemasons are just randomly using a Rams head as an artistic device, it is very obvious that the Rams head has significance to Freemasonry.  And it is at this point the guessing begins - anywhere from the lost phallus of Osiris to the soul bearer of Osiris or some other symbolism.  I just think it would important to know for academic advancement - and nothing more. Those Cornucopia with a Rams head stuck at the bottom look too uncomfortably like a large Phallus to be ignored - as well as all those goblets: Roman pagan phallic symbols.

Lets assume I'm a reputable artist and for arguments sake, never became a mason.

Let it be known that this is a fact: Before I became a Mason or knew much about the symbols of Masonry, I went to Old Navy and bought a cool looking shirt. It had the number 32 emblazoned on the front with a double headed eagle and a crown under it's talons with Latin written about. After learning what the shirt was, I shelved it for home use only because I'm not a 32 degree mason.

I die with the shirt on. Someone notices it is the symbolism of the 32 degree in the Scottish Rite. Does that make me a mason?

Remember, imagery =/= masonic unless you can prove the artist was a mason.

Otherwise Honey Nut Cheerios is "the cereal of industry." I can go on with the comparisons but I hope that makes sense.


Edited by BroScubaSteve - June/14/2013 at 8:59am

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.

Edited by masonic.truths - June/16/2013 at 1:25pm

[QUOTE=masonic.truths]
[QUOTE=masonic.truths]A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance.
http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html

The original cornucopia was a ram or goat's horn in Roman mythology. The Roman god Jupiter gave a goat's horn to his nursemaid as a reward for doing such a great job babysitting him and taking care of him as an infant. It was a magical horn of supply, and whenever the nursemaid desired something, she just made a wish, reached in the horn, and pulled out her heart's desire.

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html [/QUOTE]

droche wrote: Grimoire, It is very unfortunate that you are accusing us of denial, stonewalling and mendacity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people on this forum have welcomed you and have tried to help you and you all but accuse us of lying. So be it. You will believe what you like. That's it for me on this thread unless you get real.

Hi droche,

A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance.
http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html

The original cornucopia was a ram or goat's horn in Roman mythology. The Roman god Jupiter gave a goat's horn to his nursemaid as a reward for doing such a great job babysitting him and taking care of him as an infant. It was a magical horn of supply, and whenever the nursemaid desired something, she just made a wish, reached in the horn, and pulled out her heart's desire.

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html

Brethern,   I dare say GrimoireA3 has found Who and what the  'Inner Circle' of High Level Master Masons is.  

The following is from 1610, showing the 'Church conveying the Blessing of the True Religion from Rome'.   Ecclesia is holding a Cornucopis and the 5 Crowns in her lap represent the five patriarchal sees of the Church.  

 ... Per GrimoireA3 logic; Because the Cornucopia is a Freemason symbol, THEN:

• All Popes were Freemasons and our secret Grand Master of the 'Inner Circle' of High Level Freemasons.
  
• The Five partriarchal sees of the Church are 'high level Freemasons'
• Therefore, All Freemasons are Roman Catholics
  

When you have eliminated the impossible, ... THEN ... what remains must be true!



Hahahaha!


edit add:   ref for the above  http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-catholic-church-in-rome.html


Edited by edwmax - June/12/2013 at 7:05pm

Grimoire,

It is very unfortunate that you are accusing us of denial, stonewalling and mendacity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people on this forum have welcomed you and have tried to help you and you all but accuse us of lying.

So be it. You will believe what you like. That's it for me on this thread unless you get real.

@ masonic.truths,

This has gone from the ridiculous to the absurd. You have not posted one iota of evidence that the White Memorial is "an obviously Masonic memorial".

It appears the logic you are using to come to that conclusion is:

Henry Bacon was a Freemason.
Henry Bacon designed the memorial.
∴ The memorial is a Masonic memorial.

This is the same logic used by the Masonic Conspiracy nuts that say Washington D C streets are laid out to create Masonic symbols.

Do you think all of these are "obviously Masonic memorials"? They were also designed by Henry Bacon.

Architectural settings, bases and exedra for sculpture

Commodore George Hamilton Perkins, (1902), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, New Hampshire State House, Concord, New Hampshire
Col. James Anderson Monument, (1904), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Allegheny Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
August Robert Meyer Memorial, (1909) Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Kansas City, Missouri
Prehn Mausoleum, (1912) Karl Bitter sculptor, carved by the Piccirilli Brothers, Cedar Lawn Cemetery, Paterson, New Jersey
Abraham Lincoln (1912 statue) by Daniel Chester French, Lincoln, Nebraska,1912.
Carl Schurz Monument, (1913) Karl Bitter sculptor, Morningside Park, New York City
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Monument, (1914), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Longfellow Park, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lafayette Monument, (1917), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Prospect Park, Brooklyn, New York
Depew Memorial Fountain, (1919), Karl Bitter and Alexander Stirling Calder sculptors, University Park, Indianapolis, Indiana
Russell Alger Memorial Fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Grand Circus Park, Detroit, Michigan
Dupont Circle fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Dupont Circle, Washington, D.C.
Alexander Hamilton Monument, (1923), James Earle Fraser sculptor, Washington D.C.
Jesse Parker Williams Memorial, (c. 1924), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Westview Cemetery, Atlanta, Georgia
American Revolutionary War Memorial, (c. 1915), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Jno. Williams, Inc. (NY) founder, Danville, Illinois

http://www.reference.com/browse/henry+bacon

Edit: My research shows that Russell Alger and Jesse Parker Williams were also Freemasons.

Edited by masonic.truths - June/12/2013 at 1:59pm

GrimoireA3 wrote: Again, I am not a Mason, just extremely interested in the subject.   I found this in relation to a Ram's head and Freemasonry: another dot to connect.   http://mastermason.com/callendar588/html/the_goat.html   It seems the Ram god of Egypt -- Banebdjedet --  is closely associated with Osiris, which is fascinating in and of itself.  A deity of fertility, power, and immortality.

edwmax wrote: A description of the fountain - monument  can be read at http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white_pg/dcfrench_white_pg.html   ... I would say the monument is a fitting tribute to a man who's generously & freely gave large gifts to Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, Massachusetts General Hospital and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy; and though his Trust, is still giving to the people of Boston.  Therefore, Georgia Robert White is being portrayed as being the Angle or having the spirit of the Angle. I think originally, this Angle was 'sowing seeds' upon the ground which would sprout and provide for the future; but in the fountain setting, this easy translated into 'casting bread upon the waters'.  Thus the same allegory as 'sowing seeds'.     The Cornucopia being "horn of plenty is a symbol of abundance and nourishment".   ... In my opinion, this element can very well represent the 'George Robert White Trust Fund' which continues to provide for the city and people of Boston to this day.   ... The Ram's head at the end of the Cornucopia is an artistic element to complete the allusion & allegory of the  Cornucopia of 'Plenty' with an unending flow of water (Plenty) into the fountain (city & people of Boston). There is another monument (sister to this one) erected to Georgia Robert White. It is the 'Angle of Peace'.  ... http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white/dcfrench_white.html As stated several times above. while the elements of the monument are also used as symbols in Freemasonry, they are not exclusive to Freemasonry.   The symbolism & allegory is the same as represented by Greek & Roman mythology (the Classics).  This monument is to a Man and not to Freemasonry.   ... However, I am glad to call George Robert White a Brother. The symbolism and tribute of the monument is very simple.  There is no hidden meaning or secrets here.

GaLightSeeker wrote: It wasn't this guy was it?