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HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 6:20am
It is true though that there are differences among the leading Masonic scholars on various issues. That is why I keep asking Grimoire to cite his sources. I want to see and be able to verify what he is saying. It is not a challenge. In any scholarly or scientific endeavor (not that I am an expert at it) one puts forth a hypothesis and puts forth the evidence, then others go in to verify it.

After several requests, I still have not heard from Grimoire exactly what his sources say about his various statements.


Edited by droche - June/18/2013 at 7:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 8:47am
True,  Grimoire has only made general statements & his own conclusions while referencing a few publications in general.  He has failed to give specific quotes from other authorities citing the publication, page number, and line number of the quotes.

My impression, is that Grimoire was hoping for the forum to do his 'leg-work' (research) for him and give him the necessary references to back up his conclusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 9:54am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Couple things I do notice about the memorial: As has been stated, the ram's head is not used in Masonry. Also, the cornucopias in the memorial are not of the style used in Masonry. They are much more elaborate and bend up 90 degrees, whereas those used in Masonry have a more or less 45 degree bend.
 
 
This is the kind of 'expert' opinion which I seek on this forum from real practicing Masons.  I, nor any other non-Mason, would not notice this minor difference.  Thank you droche. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 9:58am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

True,  Grimoire has only made general statements & his own conclusions while referencing a few publications in general.  He has failed to give specific quotes from other authorities citing the publication, page number, and line number of the quotes.
 
Yes, I am using 'deductive' reasoning to draw a conclusion from general examples and much evidence.  I am trying to defend my thesis with lots of research and in the process learn about Freemasonry.  So I'm actually killing two birds with one stone.

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

My impression, is that Grimoire was hoping for the forum to do his 'leg-work' (research) for him and give him the necessary references to back up his conclusions.
 
No sir, not the case.  I prefer to do my own 'leg-work' since wisdom usually comes from the journey and not the destination (old Taoist saying).
 
But any info that has been provided certainly helps.
 
P.S.  What is meant by "in standing' when it comes to Masonic membership???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...
 
P.S.  What is meant by "in standing' when it comes to Masonic membership???


Please Note: I am not a Mason.


You didn't complete the quote or the context of the statement of which 'in standing' was taken from.   ...  the actual words should be 'in Good Standing'   ... this refers to the status of one's membership.

It always amazes me when a 'non-Mason' attempts to study Freemasonry and argue its teachings and the meaning of symbols to a Mason.  The lectures of Freemasonry have already told the Mason what he needs to know.   The rest is speculation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 

...Yes, I am using 'deductive' reasoning to draw a conclusion...


Your "" 'deductive' reasoning" consists of supposition and unexplained leaps which have resulted in a deductive fallacy.

It appears that the most basic premise that you rely on to conclude that the statue is a Masonic Memorial is that White was a Freemason, yet you have failed to support even that assertion.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 

...Yes, I am using 'deductive' reasoning to draw a conclusion...


Your "" 'deductive' reasoning" consists of supposition and unexplained leaps which have resulted in a deductive fallacy.

It appears that the most basic premise that you rely on to conclude that the statue is a Masonic Memorial is that White was a Freemason, yet you have failed to support even that assertion.   
 
Hi masonic.truths,
 
That is untrue.  Please read the list of books I've cited.  There is much support for my theory.  I am not guessing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

It is true though that there are differences among the leading Masonic scholars on various issues. That is why I keep asking Grimoire to cite his sources. I want to see and be able to verify what he is saying. It is not a challenge. In any scholarly or scientific endeavor (not that I am an expert at it) one puts forth a hypothesis and puts forth the evidence, then others go in to verify it.

After several requests, I still have not heard from Grimoire exactly what his sources say about his various statements.
 
 
Hi droche,
 
I have listed several titles of books which I am drawing information for my theory on both the Masonic nature of the White memorial, and my question: why is there a Ram's head on the end of a cornucopia on a Masonic memorial??
 
Also, the library just informed me that the book I have been using for three months: 10,000 Famous Freemasons (1957 first edition) to verify membership in Masonry, is now MISSING!!!
 
I almost got thrown out of the library insisting that it be found.Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 4:26pm
Maybe this will help you. http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/10,000_famous_freemasons/Volume_4_Q_to_Z.htm

I did not find Henry Bacon or George Robert White in there. If I am mistaken let me know, and if you do not find them in there either, I ask you again what evidence do you have that they were Freemasons. I do not accept the abcnews article as authoritative,they did not list any sources either.

Listing the names of books does not provide evidence to support a claim, you need to cite specifics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2013 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
 Hi droche,
 
I have listed several titles of books which I am drawing information for my theory on both the Masonic nature of the White memorial, and my question: why is there a Ram's head on the end of a cornucopia on a Masonic memorial??
 
Also, the library just informed me that the book I have been using for three months: 10,000 Famous Freemasons (1957 first edition) to verify membership in Masonry, is now MISSING!!!
 
I almost got thrown out of the library insisting that it be found.Ouch


Yes, I know you listed the titles, but what I am asking is what exactly do these documents say about the White Memorial in the Public Gardens that leads you to believe that there is a Masonic connection and on what pages is this information found?

I would be just as happy as you if it turned out there was a Masonic connection with this memorial, but so far I cannot see it. As Masonictruths requested, please provide specifics.

Your question, "Why is there a Ram's head on the end of a cornucopia on a Masonic memorial?"
No offense but we seem to be going in circles and I am about ready to give up. You have provided no evidence that this is a Masonic memorial and I already pointed out to you that the cornucopias in the memorial are not of the type of cornucopias used in Masonry. I think we are at an impasse.At a loss
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2013 at 10:06am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
 Hi droche,
 
I have listed several titles of books which I am drawing information for my theory on both the Masonic nature of the White memorial, and my question: why is there a Ram's head on the end of a cornucopia on a Masonic memorial??
 
Also, the library just informed me that the book I have been using for three months: 10,000 Famous Freemasons (1957 first edition) to verify membership in Masonry, is now MISSING!!!
 
I almost got thrown out of the library insisting that it be found.Ouch


Yes, I know you listed the titles, but what I am asking is what exactly do these documents say about the White Memorial in the Public Gardens that leads you to believe that there is a Masonic connection and on what pages is this information found?


 
Hi droche,
 
I agree with you.  I wish I had some way of getting the pages of all those books onto this thread.  I don't have the equipment or skill to do so.  And now it seems to be a moot point since the Boston Public Library/Copley 'delivery desk' has informed me that they are deleting every single Masonic book for re-cataloging and it is unknown when those books will be available again.Cry
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Gentlemen,
 
I was informed by the 'delivery' desk of the Boston Public Library main branch at Copley Square that all the Masonic books in their inventory will be 'deleted' and recataloged.  And when those books will be available is unknown.  Then they told me several of the books I had previously requested and used and returned, such as COIL'S MASONIC ENCYCLOPEDIA (1961) 1st edition [a quote: Freemasonry is a mild religion], is now MISSING.
 
Hundreds if not thousands of Freemason literature, books, magazines, almanacs, periodicals, and minutes from Lodges all-over-the-country have been made inaccessible!!!
 
A vast sea of Masonic information for public consumption has been damned off by a public library - for Heaven's sakes why????At a loss
 
I have three books on hold: 1. 'FREE=MASONRY: The End of It (1928) by Reginald Stuart
2. FREEMASON MANUAL (1851) by Rev. Stewart; and 3. SYMBOLISM OF FREEMASONRY OR MYSTIC MASONRY AND GREATER MYSTERIES OF ANTIQUITY (1906), 1967 reprint; by J. D. Buck, 32 degree, and 4. THE ART OF MEMORY (1966) by Ms. Francs A. Yates, PIMLICO Edition: --  and I was told that as soon as I turn them in, they will be removed from circulation for an indefininte period of time!!
 
That stops my research COLD.
 
Guys, its been nice.  Thank you for all your patience with me.  Just to let you know, I have learned so much new information in my short reading spree on Freemasonry that I have learned a whole new aspect on Boston history and world history vicariously.  Thank you for your time.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2013 at 10:55am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Gentlemen,
 
I was informed by the 'delivery' desk of the Boston Public Library main branch at Copley Square that all the Masonic books in their inventory will be 'deleted' and recataloged.  And when those books will be available is unknown.  Then they told me several of the books I had previously requested and used and returned, such as COIL'S MASONIC ENCYCLOPEDIA (1961) 1st edition [a quote: Freemasonry is a mild religion], is now MISSING.
 
Hundreds if not thousands of Freemason literature, books, magazines, almanacs, periodicals, and minutes from Lodges all-over-the-country have been made inaccessible!!!
 
A vast sea of Masonic information for public consumption has been damned off by a public library - for Heaven's sakes why????At a loss
 
I have three books on hold: 1. 'FREE=MASONRY: The End of It (1928) by Reginald Stuart
2. FREEMASON MANUAL (1851) by Rev. Stewart; and 3. SYMBOLISM OF FREEMASONRY OR MYSTIC MASONRY AND GREATER MYSTERIES OF ANTIQUITY (1906), 1967 reprint; by J. D. [Jirah Dewey] Buck, 32 degree, and 4. THE ART OF MEMORY (1966) by Ms. Francs A. Yates, PIMLICO Edition: --  and I was told that as soon as I turn them in, they will be removed from circulation for an indefininte period of time!!
 
That stops my research COLD.
 
Guys, its been nice.  Thank you for all your patience with me.  Just to let you know, I have learned so much new information in my short reading spree on Freemasonry that I have learned a whole new aspect on Boston history and world history vicariously.  Thank you for your time.
 
 
 
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tarditi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2013 at 12:50pm
Have you looked online? Google Books had SYMBOLISM OF FREEMASONRY OR MYSTIC MASONRY AND GREATER MYSTERIES OF ANTIQUITY, for instance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2013 at 3:05pm
How about you say in Freemasons for Dummies on page 101 it talks about the Stewards and the cornucopia.  The same format for each book and problem solved.  Well the problem of giving sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Gentlemen,
 
I was informed by the 'delivery' desk of the Boston Public Library main branch at Copley Square that all the Masonic books in their inventory will be 'deleted' and recataloged.  And when those books will be available is unknown.  Then they told me several of the books I had previously requested and used and returned, such as COIL'S MASONIC ENCYCLOPEDIA (1961) 1st edition [a quote: Freemasonry is a mild religion], is now MISSING.
 
Hundreds if not thousands of Freemason literature, books, magazines, almanacs, periodicals, and minutes from Lodges all-over-the-country have been made inaccessible!!!
 
A vast sea of Masonic information for public consumption has been damned off by a public library - for Heaven's sakes why????At a loss
 
I have three books on hold: 1. 'FREE=MASONRY: The End of It (1928) by Reginald Stuart
2. FREEMASON MANUAL (1851) by Rev. Stewart; and 3. SYMBOLISM OF FREEMASONRY OR MYSTIC MASONRY AND GREATER MYSTERIES OF ANTIQUITY (1906), 1967 reprint; by J. D. Buck, 32 degree, and 4. THE ART OF MEMORY (1966) by Ms. Francs A. Yates, PIMLICO Edition: --  and I was told that as soon as I turn them in, they will be removed from circulation for an indefininte period of time!!
 
That stops my research COLD.
 
Guys, its been nice.  Thank you for all your patience with me.  Just to let you know, I have learned so much new information in my short reading spree on Freemasonry that I have learned a whole new aspect on Boston history and world history vicariously.  Thank you for your time.
 
 
 


Members of the forum:

I checked with the Boston Public Library re the above statements and received the following reply:

Dear Mr. Roche:

The Boston Public Library does not have any plans to pull Masonic/Freemasonic publications from our collections for recataloging. 

Please note that many of the materials published by the Masons/Freemasons held at the Boston Public Library do not circulate, and may be located in different areas of the library.  For a complete list of the materials, please consult our online catalog at http://bpl.bibliocommons.com/ or our microfiche catalog of older materials held on the second floor of the Johnson building.  

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Thank you for using the reference services of the Boston Public Library.

Sincerely,

[name removed by poster]



Edited by droche - June/25/2013 at 8:39pm
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(Sniff... Sniff...) is that freshly grilled troll I smell burning?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2013 at 1:29pm
I smelled something when he said that the BPL was pulling all of their Masonic publications for re-cataloging  and it didn't smell right. Libraries, especially big ones like BPL just don't do things that way.
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I believe this was the strangest thread I have seen on these forums.

I do not know what the intent of the original poster was. If someone has an agenda it usually becomes evident early on. At first I thought this person had a sincere interest in learning about Freemasonry, albeit from the outside, but as the thread progressed I began to have my reservations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/24/2013 at 10:29am
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

I believe this was the strangest thread I have seen on these forums.

I do not know what the intent of the original poster was. If someone has an agenda it usually becomes evident early on. At first I thought this person had a sincere interest in learning about Freemasonry, albeit from the outside, but as the thread progressed I began to have my reservations.
 
Hi masonic.truths,
 
Just for the record, YES I do have a sincere interest in learning about Freemasonry.  And I still do.
 
And yes they did pull all the books from the Boston Public Library Copley square for re-cataloging.  I sent three e-mails to the head librarian in complaint and I did regain access to all those excellent books on Freemasonry.  But they were pulled!!!!!
 
And so far the only thing about Freemasonry that bugs me is all the "mytho-history" Freemasonry teaches; for example there is no evidence whatsoever that Pythagoras ever stepped foot in Egypt.  And Egypt learned its alphabet, math, and pyramid building from the Babylonians.  Babylon predated Egypt by five hundred years.  And Egyptian mathematics and geometry was very primitive: they had pi off by 6%; they had no concept of division; they didn't know what a fraction (e.g. 3/10ths) was; and all their proportions were approximate.  Freemasonry seems to be ahistorical and eschews accepted historiography.  Otherwise everything else about 'the Craft' seems to be O.K. (Nothing wrong with being a non-Christian religion, in fact Freemasonry's opinion regarding Christianity is very valid in my personal opinion, and being secretive is O.K. too).  I think Masonry needs more Historians as members though?
 
But again thanks for all your patience and help.  Take care!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/24/2013 at 11:58am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And so far the only thing about Freemasonry that bugs me is all the "mytho-history" Freemasonry teaches; ... ... I think Masonry needs more Historians as members though?

And all this shall continue to bug you, and anyone else who has yet to do the Work for that matter, until you understand ALLEGORY and what it is intended to convey.

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Edited by coach - July/24/2013 at 11:59am
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Quote Freemasonry seems to be ahistorical and eschews accepted historiography.  Otherwise everything else about 'the Craft' seems to be O.K.


I'm fairly certain not everyone takes Aesop's fables as historically accurate either. It doesn't mean you can't learn several important lessons from them.

Quote And so far the only thing about Freemasonry that bugs me is all the "mytho-history" Freemasonry teaches; for example there is no evidence whatsoever that Pythagoras ever stepped foot in Egypt.  And Egypt learned its alphabet, math, and pyramid building from the Babylonians.


I'm also pretty sure freemasons didn't invent the history of Pythagoras. Whether he learned the secrets of the 3-4-5 triangle from the rope stretchers in Egypt, Babylon, or figured it out playing with some rope on his ship. The point is that it isn't the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyksos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/24/2013 at 4:58pm
Grimoire,

Good day. I do recall this thread, but I largely stayed out of it. I would like to comment on one small thing though. Earlier there were conversations regarding "Osiris" and his supposed role in Masonry. I saw a large contingent of Brothers deny this claim. Their denial is not deception, but merely their opinions on the work. I can also assure you that the blue lodge ritual has nothing to do directly with Osiris and no blue lodge Mason can openly say that the Osirian legend is part of Masonry. However, that said, one commentator on the blue degree (Albert Pike) felt that the Hiramic Legend originated with the Osirian myth. He says so in his 30th chapter of Morals and Dogma.

Quote " The legend of Osiris was revived and adopted, to symbolize the destruction of the Order, and the resurrection of Khu_ru_m, slain in the body of the Temple, of KHU_RU_M ABAI, the Master, as the martyr of fidelity to obligation, of Truth and Conscience, prophesied the restoration to life of the buried association.]


I repeat - nothing in Masonry has to do with Osiris. However, some (and I repeat...SOME) masons/Masonic scholars might argue that the Hiramic legend descended from the Egyptian legend of Osiris.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2013 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... for example there is no evidence whatsoever that Pythagoras ever stepped foot in Egypt. 

I don't know what other rituals say but Massachusetts Blue Lodge ritual  makes no mention of Pythagoras being in Egypt either. It does state that he travelled in Asia, Africa and Europe. Maybe I am splitting hairs here.

 Be that as it may, I agree with other posters that much of Masonic teaching involves legend and allegory in order to teach a lesson. While I have never been told outright that Masonic legends are historically inaccurate, neither have I been told that they are accurate and that we should put credence in their historical accuracy; it is the lesson that is important as others have pointed out.

 It would seem to me that anyone of average intelligence would be able to be wary of taking many of these legends literally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyksos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2013 at 7:29am
Found some more Osiris-related writings in M+D Ch. 24.

Quote Their explanation belongs both to astronomy and mythology; and the Legend of the Master's Degree is but another form of that of the Mysteries, reaching back, in one shape or other, to the remotest antiquity.

Whether Egypt originated the legend, or borrowed it from India or Chaldæa, it is now impossible to know. But the Hebrews received the Mysteries from the Egyptians; and of course were familiar with their legend,--known as it was to those Egyptian Initiates, Joseph and Moses. It was the fable (or rather the truthclothed in allegory and figures) of OSIRIS, the Sun, Source of Light and Principle of Good, and TYPHON, the Principle of Darkness and Evil. In all the histories of the Gods and Heroes lay couched and hidden astronomical details and the history of the operations of visible Nature; and those in their turn were also symbols of higher and profounder truths. None but rude uncultivated intellects could long consider the Sun and Stars and the Powers of Nature as Divine, or as fit objects of Human Worship; and they will consider them so while the world lasts; and ever remain ignorant of the great Spiritual Truths of which these are the hieroglyphics and expressions.

A brief summary of the Egyptian legend will serve to show the leading idea on which the Mysteries among the Hebrews were based. . . .

*Pike then goes on to explain the Osirian legend and its link to Masonry. I will leave that part out for now. Anyone truly interested can just google the M+D ebook.*



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyksos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2013 at 7:32am
Pike also comments that the broken column scene probably derived from the Osirian legend.

Quote To aid her in the search for the body of Osiris, and to nurse her infant child Horus, Isis sought out and took with her Anubis, son of Osiris, and his sister Nephte. He, as we have said, was Sirius, the brightest star in the Heavens. After finding him, she went to Byblos, and seated herself near a fountain, where she had learned that the sacred chest had stopped which contained the body of Osiris. There she sat, sad and silent, shedding a torrent of tears. Thither came the women of the Court of Queen Astarte, and she spoke to them, and dressed their hair, pouring upon it deliciously perfumed ambrosia. This known to the Queen, Isis was engaged as nurse for her child, in the palace, one of the columns of which was made of the erica or tamarisk, that had grown up over the chest containing Osiris, cut down by the King, and unknown to him, still enclosing the chest: which column Isis afterward demanded, and from it extracted the chest and the body, which, the latter wrapped in thin drapery and perfumed, she carried away with her.

Blue Masonry, ignorant of its import, still retains among its emblems one of a woman weeping over a broken column, holding in her hand a branch of acacia, myrtle, or tamarisk, while Time, we are told, stands behind her combing out the ringlets of her hair. We need not repeat the vapid and trivial explanation there given, of this representation of Isis, weeping at Byblos, over the column torn from the palace of the King, that contained the body of Osiris, while Horus, the God of Time, pours ambrosia on her hair.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2013 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

Pike also comments that the broken column scene probably derived from the Osirian legend.

Quote <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal;">To aid her in the search for the body of Osiris, and to nurse her infant child Horus, Isis sought out and took with her Anubis, son of Osiris, and his sister Nephte. He, as we have said, was Sirius, the brightest star in the Heavens. After finding him, she went to Byblos, and seated herself near a fountain, where she had learned that the sacred chest had stopped which contained the body of Osiris. There she sat, sad and silent, shedding a torrent of tears. Thither came the women of the Court of Queen Astarte, and she spoke to them, and dressed their hair, pouring upon it deliciously </span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal;">perfumed ambrosia. This known to the Queen, Isis was engaged as nurse for her child, in the palace, one of the columns of which was made of the erica or tamarisk, that had grown up over the chest containing Osiris, cut down by the King, and unknown to him, still enclosing the chest: which column Isis afterward demanded, and from it extracted the chest and the body, which, the latter wrapped in thin drapery and perfumed, she carried away with her.</span><p style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal;">Blue Masonry, ignorant of its import, still retains among its emblems one of a woman weeping over a broken column, holding in her hand a branch of acacia, myrtle, or tamarisk, while Time, we are told, stands behind her combing out the ringlets of her hair. We need not repeat the vapid and trivial explanation there given, of this representation of Isis, weeping at Byblos, over the column torn from the palace of the King, that contained the body of Osiris, while Horus, the God of Time, pours ambrosia on her hair.


Still retains?!?!?! This whole emblematic construct is a recent innovation and addition!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyksos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2013 at 11:19am
Coach,

See I don't know about that. I don't have enough evidence to personally conclude one way or the other.

Did the broken column scene originate in Osirian lore?

Or

Did Brothers who desperately wanted ancient heritage feel that the Osirian legend is 'close enough' that they can superimpose it onto the broken column scene and claim it derived from there.

I don't know enough really to decide either way. I just wanted to point out that grimoire might not have been 100% off when he talked of Osirian beginnings to Masonic lore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2013 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

Coach,

See I don't know about that. I don't have enough evidence to personally conclude one way or the other.

Did the broken column scene originate in Osirian lore?

Or

Did Brothers who desperately wanted ancient heritage feel that the Osirian legend is 'close enough' that they can superimpose it onto the broken column scene and claim it derived from there.

I don't know enough really to decide either way. I just wanted to point out that grimoire might not have been 100% off when he talked of Osirian beginnings to Masonic lore.

You might want to read this: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/art/monument/fiction/fiction.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2013 at 5:13pm
I was about to say, but Coach's link above explain it well.   ... The 'Broken Column & weeping Virgin" is a Jeremy Cross innovation for freemasonry.   ... But it was certainly founded upon old mytholigy.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2014 at 10:18am
Originally posted by GaLightSeeker GaLightSeeker wrote:

Quote Freemasonry seems to be ahistorical and eschews accepted historiography.  Otherwise everything else about 'the Craft' seems to be O.K.


I'm fairly certain not everyone takes Aesop's fables as historically accurate either. It doesn't mean you can't learn several important lessons from them.

Quote And so far the only thing about Freemasonry that bugs me is all the "mytho-history" Freemasonry teaches; for example there is no evidence whatsoever that Pythagoras ever stepped foot in Egypt.  And Egypt learned its alphabet, math, and pyramid building from the Babylonians.


[quote]I'm also pretty sure freemasons didn't invent the history of Pythagoras. Whether he learned the secrets of the 3-4-5 triangle from the rope stretchers in Egypt, Babylon, or figured it out playing with some rope on his ship. The point is that it isn't the point.
 
Rope???  Funny, I was taught that Pythagoras sat and scratched out his problems in the sand using a stick.  See what I mean about History!  Most of the Freemason authors I've read so far are all scientists - not historians.  Remember: the humanities provides guidance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2014 at 10:19am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GaLightSeeker GaLightSeeker wrote:

[quote]Freemasonry seems to be ahistorical and eschews accepted historiography.  Otherwise everything else about 'the Craft' seems to be O.K.


I'm fairly certain not everyone takes Aesop's fables as historically accurate either. It doesn't mean you can't learn several important lessons from them.

[quote]And so far the only thing about Freemasonry that bugs me is all the "mytho-history" Freemasonry teaches; for example there is no evidence whatsoever that Pythagoras ever stepped foot in Egypt.  And Egypt learned its alphabet, math, and pyramid building from the Babylonians.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I'm also pretty sure freemasons didn't invent the history of Pythagoras. Whether he learned the secrets of the 3-4-5 triangle from the rope stretchers in Egypt, Babylon, or figured it out playing with some rope on his ship. The point is that it isn't the point.
 
Rope???  Funny, I was taught that Pythagoras sat and scratched out his problems in the sand using a stick.  See what I mean about History!  Most of the Freemason authors I've read so far are all scientists - not historians.  Remember: the humanities provides guidance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2014 at 10:21am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GaLightSeeker GaLightSeeker wrote:

[quote]Freemasonry seems to be ahistorical and eschews accepted historiography.  Otherwise everything else about 'the Craft' seems to be O.K.


I'm fairly certain not everyone takes Aesop's fables as historically accurate either. It doesn't mean you can't learn several important lessons from them.

[quote]And so far the only thing about Freemasonry that bugs me is all the "mytho-history" Freemasonry teaches; for example there is no evidence whatsoever that Pythagoras ever stepped foot in Egypt.  And Egypt learned its alphabet, math, and pyramid building from the Babylonians.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I'm also pretty sure freemasons didn't invent the history of Pythagoras. Whether he learned the secrets of the 3-4-5 triangle from the rope stretchers in Egypt, Babylon, or figured it out playing with some rope on his ship. The point is that it isn't the point.
 
Rope???  Funny, I was taught that Pythagoras sat and scratched out his problems in the sand using a stick.  See what I mean about History!  Most of the Freemason authors I've read so far are all scientists - not historians.  Remember: the humanities provides guidance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2014 at 11:21am
"Cast thy Bread Upon the Waters for Thou Shalt Find it After Many Days".
ECCLES XI.I*

*XI.I This may refer to a spirit of adventure in business or to generosity in alms giving. Waters: of the ocean, which sometimes carry lost treasures to the shore. page 790 THE CATHOLIC STUDY BIBLE, 1990.

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Clap
 
 
SEPTEMBER 30, 2014     THE BACK BAY SUN  (Boston, Massachusetts)  President/Editor Stephen Quigley  ADS.JOURNAL@VERIZON.NET
 
'FOPB Launch campaign for Memorial restoration' Page 3;  [F.O.P.B. = friends of the public garden] 
By Dan Murphy
 
"The Friends of the Public Garden has luanched a capital campaign to bring the long-dormant George Robert White Memorial on the Public Garden back to life.
 
Locally referred to as the 'Angel,' the memorial fountain sits in the northwest corner of the park and honors White, a noted Boston philanthropist.  Upon his death in 1922, he bequeithed an endowment of $5 million to the city to underwrite public art, with the sole stipulation that $50,000 be set aside for the creation of a monument in his honor.  Renowned sculptor Daniel Chester French completed the memorial in 1924, which has remained inactive since the 1980s when it was discontinued for numerous reasons.
 
The neglected monument recently gained a new lease on life, though, when local residents approached the non-profit Friends group and offered to raise funds for its restoration.  The Friends subsequently hired expert cunsultants to assess the scope of the project, which is estimated to cost apporximately $400,000 for the necessary plumbing, electrical and construction upgrades and stone-basin repair.  The group also intends to raise an additional $300,000 for ongoing upkeep of the monument.
 
Elizabeth Vizza, executive director of the Friends group, said the outpouring of public support for the project to date has been overwhelming.
 
'Research, design and reviews have been in process for several months, and we are optimistic about being able to begin work on-site in 2015 to restore this magnificent memorial to its former glory,' Vizza said.  'We are hopeful that the community will continue to support its care as we strive to meet the $700,00 needed to complete the project and plan for its future maintenance.'
 
Anne Brooke, chair of the Friends' board of directors added,  'It has ... been a wonderful experience to see the passion that our members and community at large have for this piece and its resotration.  We look forward toconnecting with more neighbors and others who wish to join us in bringing the water back.'
 
For more information, contact Mary Halpin at the Friends of the Public Garden at 857-239-8937 or vie e-mail to mary@friendsofthepublicgarden.org.  to donate to the project, visit friendsofthepublicgarden.org or send a check (made payable to the Friends group), to: Friends of the Public Garden, 69 Beacon St., Boston, MA   02108."
 
______________________________________________________________________________
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2014 at 6:50am
http://friendsofthepublicgarden.org/programs-projects/restoration-of-the-george-robert-white-memorial-fountain-in-the-public-garden/
Now having seen the fountain I can confirm that there is nothing remotely Masonic about its symbolism.
 
The Cornucopia spill their water (symbolic of the usual contents) into the basin which is symbolic of the words on the pedestal "cast thy bread upon the water".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2014 at 11:27am
As a saying goes "History is agreed-upon myth".

Many, MANY aspects of what we consider to be historical fact are not necessarily accurate and even then sometimes the accuracy is only so within context. For example, consider the two questions below:
Who is the First President of the United States?
&
Under our current Constitution, who is the First President of the United States?
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2014 at 3:03pm
Funny, I was talking to my classes today about this. Under our current Constitution, the first president was George Washington. The very first president was John Hanson but he was under the Articles of Confederation.
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Funny, I was talking to my classes today about this. Under our current Constitution, the first president was George Washington. The very first president was John Hanson but he was under the Articles of Confederation.
 
 
The first President of the Continental Congress during the war (Revolutionary War) was Hanson.
 
The first President of the Federal Government was Washington.
 
Don't forget that all during the Revolutionary War the Continental government was a 'confederacy'.
 
In 1789 at the Constitutional Convention the confederate government was changed to a federal government.  Patrick Henry protested vigorously but James Madison, John Adams, George Washington, and Alexander Hamilton heartily approved.
 
I have a Master's Degree in History, 1987, from UMass.  Review your 'historiography' (i.e. How to write History).Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2014 at 10:22am
Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

As a saying goes "History is agreed-upon myth".

Many, MANY aspects of what we consider to be historical fact are not necessarily accurate and even then sometimes the accuracy is only so within context. For example, consider the two questions below:
Who is the First President of the United States?
&
Under our current Constitution, who is the First President of the United States?
 
I strongly feel that a professional Historian, such as found in the History Department at the local University, give a course on Historiography (how history is written: required by all History majors) not just at a Masonic Lodge, but any kind of club, fraternity, bar, tavern, business, to keep non-liberal arts majors and/or technicians and business professionals from guessing what is History.
 
I. The Golden Rule of History: them that has the gold, makes the rules!
 
II.  No documents, no history.
 
III. The philosophy of History is not History.
 
IV. The History Channel is not History, it's theater!
 
V.  Wikipedia is not History (nor are Encyclopedias: tertiary sources at best!).
 
VI.  Keep in mind the big differences between documented FACT and THEORY.
 
VII.  All Historians avoid "what if" questions, such as what if Napoleon won at Waterloo?  He didn't and no Historian would entertain that question.  That question would be in the realm of Philosophy.
 
Journalism, Political Science, Philosophy, Sociology, Anthropology, or Economics ARE NOT HISTORY!Big smile
 
I happen to have a Masters Degree in HISTORY, 1987, from UMass/Boston and am very particular to work within the strict bounds of Historiography when actually talking about History.
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