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HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol

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GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

This has gone from the ridiculous to the absurd. You have not posted one iota of evidence that the White Memorial is "an obviously Masonic memorial".

It appears the logic you are using to come to that conclusion is:

Henry Bacon was a Freemason.
Henry Bacon designed the memorial.
∴ The memorial is a Masonic memorial.

This is the same logic used by the Masonic Conspiracy nuts that say Washington D C streets are laid out to create Masonic symbols.

Do you think all of these are "obviously Masonic memorials"? They were also designed by Henry Bacon.

Architectural settings, bases and exedra for sculpture

Commodore George Hamilton Perkins, (1902), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, New Hampshire State House, Concord, New Hampshire
Col. James Anderson Monument, (1904), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Allegheny Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
August Robert Meyer Memorial, (1909) Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Kansas City, Missouri
Prehn Mausoleum, (1912) Karl Bitter sculptor, carved by the Piccirilli Brothers, Cedar Lawn Cemetery, Paterson, New Jersey
Abraham Lincoln (1912 statue) by Daniel Chester French, Lincoln, Nebraska,1912.
Carl Schurz Monument, (1913) Karl Bitter sculptor, Morningside Park, New York City
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Monument, (1914), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Longfellow Park, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lafayette Monument, (1917), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Prospect Park, Brooklyn, New York
Depew Memorial Fountain, (1919), Karl Bitter and Alexander Stirling Calder sculptors, University Park, Indianapolis, Indiana
Russell Alger Memorial Fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Grand Circus Park, Detroit, Michigan
Dupont Circle fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Dupont Circle, Washington, D.C.
Alexander Hamilton Monument, (1923), James Earle Fraser sculptor, Washington D.C.
Jesse Parker Williams Memorial, (c. 1924), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Westview Cemetery, Atlanta, Georgia
American Revolutionary War Memorial, (c. 1915), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Jno. Williams, Inc. (NY) founder, Danville, Illinois

http://www.reference.com/browse/henry+bacon

Edit: My research shows that Russell Alger and Jesse Parker Williams were also Freemasons.
Hi masonic.truths,
 
My only concern is with this particular memorial, and not all of Freemasonry nor every statue/memorial in the U.S.
 
If you carefully read my posts and read those books which I am basing my conclusions, you will discern that I have demonstrated that the Neoclassic school of art was the preferred method for Boston Freemasons between 1870 - 1935 to erect the monuments and statuary which identify those works of art as being Freemason in design.  That Angel of the Waters is a Neoclassic work of Art. 
 
The monument in the Boston Public Garden was designed by a Freemason architect, Henry Bacon; the monument has a Freemason symbol, the cornucopia; and I have made connections with the Rams head through Solomon's home: The House of the Forests of Lebanon via a Masonic 'Holy Bible' in the Boston Public Library, Kirchner edition; and Cast thy bread bread upon the Waters from Eccl XI.I is prominent both on the monument and in four of the Freemason manuals I have read, Stewart's being one off the top of my head.  YES this is a Freemason memorial.
 
Any more denial or stonewalling on part of active Masons cannot be interpreted other than dull and transparent mendacity.  Sorry to be blunt.
 
I have a few more 'dots' to connect.  I need to find out a few more facts.  But I am on the right path.
 
To borrow a maxim from a very famous Freemason:
 
"When you have eliminated the impossible,
regardless what remains,
no matter how improbable;
Must be the Truth!"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. 
 
No this pursuit is not absurd.  I have received some very useful information from other real Masons on this forum which is or great help.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 6:27pm
Grimoire,

It is very unfortunate that you are accusing us of denial, stonewalling and mendacity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people on this forum have welcomed you and have tried to help you and you all but accuse us of lying.

So be it. You will believe what you like. That's it for me on this thread unless you get real.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

    ... 
 
Any more denial or stonewalling on part of active Masons cannot be interpreted other than dull and transparent mendacity.  Sorry to be blunt.
 
I have a few more 'dots' to connect.  I need to find out a few more facts.  But I am on the right path.  ...


Yep  ... we are stonewalling him.   No matter how hard we try, our help is simple viewed as 'misdirection on our part' to conceal the true meaning of the monument.
 
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

.... To borrow a maxim from a very famous Freemason:
 
"When you have eliminated the impossible,
regardless what remains,
no matter how improbable;
Must be the Truth!"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. 
 
No this pursuit is not absurd.  I have received some very useful information from other real Masons on this forum which is or great help.


i haven't seen anything eliminated as being 'impossible'.   You have simple selected a book by Chris Hodapp as being the basis of Masonic research to the exclusion of other possibilities

Continue on ... and when you come to a finial conclusion please post it here.

"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 7:04pm
Brethern,   I dare say GrimoireA3 has found Who and what the  'Inner Circle' of High Level Master Masons is.  

The following is from 1610, showing the 'Church conveying the Blessing of the True Religion from Rome'.   Ecclesia is holding a Cornucopis and the 5 Crowns in her lap represent the five patriarchal sees of the Church.  

 ... Per GrimoireA3 logic; Because the Cornucopia is a Freemason symbol, THEN:

  • All Popes were Freemasons and our secret Grand Master of the 'Inner Circle' of High Level Freemasons.
  • The Five partriarchal sees of the Church are 'high level Freemasons'
  • Therefore, All Freemasons are Roman Catholics
When you have eliminated the impossible, ... THEN ... what remains must be true!



Hahahaha!


edit add:   ref for the above  http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-catholic-church-in-rome.html


Edited by edwmax - June/12/2013 at 7:05pm
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2013 at 7:10pm
Hummm   ... I think there might be a conflict with a few 'papal bulls' from the Popes over the last 300 years ... but the is just another misdirection and stonewalling on the Popes part.

Edited by edwmax - June/13/2013 at 1:13am
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 9:03am


A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance.
http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html

The original cornucopia was a ram or goat's horn in Roman mythology. The Roman god Jupiter gave a goat's horn to his nursemaid as a reward for doing such a great job babysitting him and taking care of him as an infant. It was a magical horn of supply, and whenever the nursemaid desired something, she just made a wish, reached in the horn, and pulled out her heart's desire.

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 9:17am
There is no reason we would try to conceal a Masonic Memorial. We proudly display Masonic symbols and acknowledge our memorials.



On November 1, 1923, the Memorial's cornerstone was dedicated in a Masonic ceremony. President Calvin Coolidge, former President and Chief Justice William H. Taft and numerous other dignitaries performed the ceremony before a crowd of thousands of Freemasons from around the nation. The onset of the Great Depression did not stop work on the Memorial. For over 10 years, Freemasons steadily and faithfully contributed to the construction of the Memorial. On May 12, 1932, the bicentennial year of George Washington's birth, the dedication of the Memorial took place with President Herbert Hoover participating.

After World War II, work on the Memorial's interior began in earnest. By 1970, the George Washington Masonic Memorial was completed. In 1999, the large square and compasses were added to the front lawn, a visible sign to the Masonic nature of the Memorial. A repository of many artifacts and the history of American Freemasons, the Memorial remains a lasting monument to George Washington, the Man, the Mason, and Father of our Country.

http://gwmemorial.org/history.php
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:07am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

It is very unfortunate that you are accusing us of denial, stonewalling and mendacity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people on this forum have welcomed you and have tried to help you and you all but accuse us of lying.

So be it. You will believe what you like. That's it for me on this thread unless you get real.
Hi droche,
 
I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper. 
 
But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

There is no reason we would try to conceal a Masonic Memorial. We proudly display Masonic symbols and acknowledge our memorials.



 
Hi masonic.truths,
 
Thank you for this information.  And that is one of my points, the Masons do proudly reveal their monuments, as well they should.  So why all the secrecy regarding 'Angels of the Waters' in the Boston Public Garden???
 
What if I prove (and I'm close) that the George White memorial is a Masonic tribute to a Brother?  I do not see the harm in that.  Nobody will know but me (or a Freemason magazine like the Trowel that I submit a paper)?!
 
Every thing is becoming so neglected here in Boston that I find that depressing.  Even this particular memorial I am researching (and in the progress learning the history of Masonry here in Boston) is a bit worn.  The fountain doesn't work and there are homeless people sleeping in itBubba and Chinese taking money out of the fountain bowl (?).  It should be refurbished which I am going to bring to the attention of the municipality.
 
But I am still curious as to why a Rams head was stuck onto the end of a Cornucopia??  That I want to find out even if no one on this forum knows the reason.
 
I'm sorry if I don't come across too clear in my posts, I don't mean to be aggravating.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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[QUOTE=masonic.truths]
[QUOTE=masonic.truths]A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance.
http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html

The original cornucopia was a ram or goat's horn in Roman mythology. The Roman god Jupiter gave a goat's horn to his nursemaid as a reward for doing such a great job babysitting him and taking care of him as an infant. It was a magical horn of supply, and whenever the nursemaid desired something, she just made a wish, reached in the horn, and pulled out her heart's desire.

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html [/QUOTE]
 
UTTERLY FANTASTIC!!!   What a profound piece of research!   I want one of those for myself!!!!
 
Thank you masonic.truths.  I think you hit the nail on the head.
 
I saw one of these items in a antique shop on Charles Street here in Boston where that are two golden Rams head pins in the front window of a shop where the Yankees (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) resided in the 1890s-1920.  Selling the former items of the old Boston Brahmins, like Rams heads. 
 
Anyways, nice piece of research.  This helps me out a lot.  Prooving or disprooving a theory are equally important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:27am
Hello edwmax,
 
That was an interesting piece of history in your post.  I enjoyed it very much.  Thank you for the time and effort in the research!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:33am
   
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The goat climbed mountains to be near God.
 
 
 
This can be useful. 
 
Rams are sheep actually and I think this distinction is important for Masonry as a counter-argument against specious anti-Mason 'satanic' goat worshiping rhetoric.
 
But this attribute combined with that provided by masonic.truths can provide a valid premise for the presence of Rams in Neoclassic art and architecture.  Those goblets are fantastic in masonic.truths posts!!!
 
Thank you.
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Edited by masonic.truths - June/16/2013 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Hi droche,
 
I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper. 
 
But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing.


I accept your apology but you need to know that we are not trying to hide anything about the memorial in the Boston Public Gardens. If you feel you have information that it is, post it here. I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so. We are open minded here and will consider any information you have. I reiterate that I have never heard that the memorial is Masonic and I would think being in close proximity to it all these years I would have heard something if it was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/13/2013 at 5:39pm
The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 6:23am
Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 8:41am
Lets assume I'm a reputable artist and for arguments sake, never became a mason.

Let it be known that this is a fact: Before I became a Mason or knew much about the symbols of Masonry, I went to Old Navy and bought a cool looking shirt. It had the number 32 emblazoned on the front with a double headed eagle and a crown under it's talons with Latin written about. After learning what the shirt was, I shelved it for home use only because I'm not a 32 degree mason.

I die with the shirt on. Someone notices it is the symbolism of the 32 degree in the Scottish Rite. Does that make me a mason?

Remember, imagery =/= masonic unless you can prove the artist was a mason.

Otherwise Honey Nut Cheerios is "the cereal of industry." I can go on with the comparisons but I hope that makes sense.


Edited by BroScubaSteve - June/14/2013 at 8:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 9:55am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Hi droche,
 
I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper. 
 
But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing.


I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so.
 
Hi droche,
 
Yes, the onus probandi is definately on me which is why I've cited or listed every piece of info I am able onto this formum for public consumption. 
 
Yet I am still too computer illiterate to be able to post pages off of Freemason Manuals dated 1856 to 1907 with Lithographic drawings: for example: The Freemason's Manual (1852) by K. J. Stewart, contains on page 52 a lithograph etching of a small pedastal with the Holy Bible opened on the top, with a large Square and Compass emblem on the front and three Rams heads holding up the Holy Bible.  Getting a copy of this page onto this forum is beyond me (you can view it on http:www.books.google.com).
 
Here's another example: a copy of a 1939 Masonic Bible by Kirchner has several illustrations in the front, one of those illustrations is of The House of the Forest of Lebanon with six large Ram headed sphinxes going up the steps.  Why would King So-lo-mon have Ram sphinxes on the fron porch of his residence?  And again, it is beyond me to transfer that illustration from a Masonic Bible to this forum.  Though you can view that same illustration on the web.
 
And again, up in Canada a new Masonic Temple was built with several Rams Heads on the front fence and gate.  Now why are Freemasons using a Rams head since So-lo-mon??  Those huge Ram sphinxes on So-lo-mon's front porch three thousand years ago had nothing to do with artistic embellishment, they had a specific meaning and purpose which I think has embeded into Freemasonry.   Egyptian Rams specifically, not the Roman nor Greek interpretation.
 
It isn't that Freemasons are just randomly using a Rams head as an artistic device, it is very obvious that the Rams head has significance to Freemasonry.  And it is at this point the guessing begins - anywhere from the lost phallus of Osiris to the soul bearer of Osiris or some other symbolism.  I just think it would important to know for academic advancement - and nothing more.
Those Cornucopia with a Rams head stuck at the bottom look too uncomfortably like a large Phallus to be ignored - as well as all those goblets: Roman pagan phallic symbols.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 9:58am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Hi droche,
 
I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper. 
 
But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing.


I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so.
 
Hi droche,
 
Yes, the onus probandi is definately on me which is why I've cited or listed every piece of info I am able onto this formum for public consumption. 
 
Yet I am still too computer illiterate to be able to post pages off of Freemason Manuals dated 1856 to 1907 with Lithographic drawings: for example: The Freemason's Manual (1852) by K. J. Stewart, contains on page 52 a lithograph etching of a small pedastal with the Holy Bible opened on the top, with a large Square and Compass emblem on the front and three Rams heads holding up the Holy Bible.  Getting a copy of this page onto this forum is beyond me (you can view it on http:www.books.google.com).
 
Here's another example: a copy of a 1939 Masonic Bible by Kirchner has several illustrations in the front, one of those illustrations is of The House of the Forest of Lebanon with six large Ram headed sphinxes going up the steps.  Why would King So-lo-mon have Ram sphinxes on the fron porch of his residence?  And again, it is beyond me to transfer that illustration from a Masonic Bible to this forum.  Though you can view that same illustration on the web.
 
And again, up in Canada a new Masonic Temple was built with several Rams Heads on the front fence and gate.  Now why are Freemasons using a Rams head since So-lo-mon??  Those huge Ram sphinxes on So-lo-mon's front porch three thousand years ago had nothing to do with artistic embellishment, they had a specific meaning and purpose which I think has embeded into Freemasonry.   Egyptian Rams specifically, not the Roman nor Greek interpretation.
 
It isn't that Freemasons are just randomly using a Rams head as an artistic device, it is very obvious that the Rams head has significance to Freemasonry.  And it is at this point the guessing begins - anywhere from the lost phallus of Osiris to the soul bearer of Osiris or some other symbolism.  I just think it would important to know for academic advancement - and nothing more.
Those Cornucopia with a Rams head stuck at the bottom look too uncomfortably like a large Phallus to be ignored - as well as all those goblets: Roman pagan phallic symbols.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 10:06am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.


AMEN!
Hi goomba,
 
Just a polite reminder that I am not a Mason, and while I have professional research experience, I am just an amateur at all aspects of the Craft.
 
Three Masons on these forums all recommended the book FREEMASONRY FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp; and on pages 101-102 of this recommended work is a large drawing of a Cornucopia and a detailed description of how the Cornucopia is the 'Jewel' of both the Senior and Junior Stewards.
 
Now despite your literary pallindrome: my question to you is how is the Cornucopia not associated with Freemasonry?
 
While the association of the Cornucopia with Freemasonry has all been well established by dozens of books on Freemasonry, I am trying to research the connection of the Rams head with Freemasonry, as it is stuck on the bottom of a Cornucopoia on a Neoclassic Masonic memorial in the Boston Public Garden.  So far I have gathered very strong circumstantial evidence that the Rams head does have some kind of symbolic meaning for the craft, but what it is only real Masons know for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 10:09am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Hi droche,
 
I am sorry.  Many apologies.  As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper. 
 
But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose.  And that is not a bad thing.


I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so.
 
Hi droche,
 
Yes, the onus probandi is definately on me which is why I've cited or listed every piece of info I am able onto this formum for public consumption. 
 
Yet I am still too computer illiterate to be able to post pages off of Freemason Manuals dated 1856 to 1907 with Lithographic drawings: for example: The Freemason's Manual (1852) by K. J. Stewart, contains on page 52 a lithograph etching of a small pedastal with the Holy Bible opened on the top, with a large Square and Compass emblem on the front and three Rams heads holding up the Holy Bible.  Getting a copy of this page onto this forum is beyond me (you can view it on http:www.books.google.com).
 
Here's another example: a copy of a 1939 Masonic Bible by Kirchner has several illustrations in the front, one of those illustrations is of The House of the Forest of Lebanon with six large Ram headed sphinxes going up the steps.  Why would King So-lo-mon have Ram sphinxes on the fron porch of his residence?  And again, it is beyond me to transfer that illustration from a Masonic Bible to this forum.  Though you can view that same illustration on the web.
 
And again, up in Canada a new Masonic Temple was built with several Rams Heads on the front fence and gate.  Now why are Freemasons using a Rams head since So-lo-mon??  Those huge Ram sphinxes on So-lo-mon's front porch three thousand years ago had nothing to do with artistic embellishment, they had a specific meaning and purpose which I think has embeded into Freemasonry.   Egyptian Rams specifically, not the Roman nor Greek interpretation.
 
It isn't that Freemasons are just randomly using a Rams head as an artistic device, it is very obvious that the Rams head has significance to Freemasonry.  And it is at this point the guessing begins - anywhere from the lost phallus of Osiris to the soul bearer of Osiris or some other symbolism.  I just think it would important to know for academic advancement - and nothing more.
Those Cornucopia with a Rams head stuck at the bottom look too uncomfortably like a large Phallus to be ignored - as well as all those goblets: Roman pagan phallic symbols which have nothing to do with Freemasonry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 12:31pm
1) Just put that you are not a mason in your sig but I'm sure most if not all the brethren and non brethren alike know you are not a Mason by now. Tongue

2) The stewards use the cornucopia as their symbol because they usually are charged with cooking the meal before meetings. The cornucopia was not a masonic invention but a symbol adopted in lodge for ritual use.

Outside of Masonry it is symbolic of abundance and nourishment. (which is why it was most likely adopted for its use in masonry for the office that feeds us...heh

George Robert White was one of Boston's leading philanthropists, having amassed a fortune in wholesale drugs. When he died in 1922, he left the city a five million dollar bequest to build clinics and fund the arts. Within this legacy was a $50,000 gift and request to build a memorial by which he might be remembered.

He nourished the city with his gift of money which is why the cornucopia adorn his memorial. It is symbolic of what he did in life and death.

Remember, symbolism in Masonry is used to educate us. It isn't used as statement pieces because they will not mean anything to the profane when they view it OUTSIDE of what they know the symbol means to them.

There is nothing masonic about the fountain. It is representative of how he lead his life as a giver and provider.

You are over-analyzing the material you have in front of you.


Edited by BroScubaSteve - June/14/2013 at 12:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DoctorAramis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
 

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.

In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  
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edited: Misinterpreted your post, Bro Doc. Aramis


Edited by BroScubaSteve - June/14/2013 at 1:53pm
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LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.


AMEN!
Hi goomba,
 
Just a polite reminder that I am not a Mason, and while I have professional research experience, I am just an amateur at all aspects of the Craft.
 
Three Masons on these forums all recommended the book FREEMASONRY FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp; and on pages 101-102 of this recommended work is a large drawing of a Cornucopia and a detailed description of how the Cornucopia is the 'Jewel' of both the Senior and Junior Stewards.
 
Now despite your literary pallindrome: my question to you is how is the Cornucopia not associated with Freemasonry?
 
While the association of the Cornucopia with Freemasonry has all been well established by dozens of books on Freemasonry, I am trying to research the connection of the Rams head with Freemasonry, as it is stuck on the bottom of a Cornucopoia on a Neoclassic Masonic memorial in the Boston Public Garden.  So far I have gathered very strong circumstantial evidence that the Rams head does have some kind of symbolic meaning for the craft, but what it is only real Masons know for sure.


Yes the cornucopia is the symbol used for the stewards.  However, we call going through the officer line the chairs.  Does this mean that chairs are a symbol of Masonic origin?  How about the sun and moon in the jewel of the senior and junior deacons?  Are they symbols used by Masons yes.  But they are not Masonic symbols.  Another question is Thanksgiving a Masonic Holiday or was it a symbol of plenty?  The book series The Hunger Games has a cornucopia as a part of it does that make it Masonic?  No one and I repeat no one has denied the fact that the cornucopia is associated with Freemasonry. 

Again the simple statement:  The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.  Is extremely true and very logical.  As are the explanations the previous posters have given.  It is starting to look like you are not looking for truth and trying to catch us in something.


Edited by goomba - June/14/2013 at 3:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
 

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.

In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  


It is a symbol used by Masons to symbolize the Stewards.  However, the Masonic lodge did not create the cornucopia.  Like the volume of sacred law. It is a symbol of the revelation of deity to man used by the lodge.  I am a Christian Mason so my VSL is the Holy Bible.  The lodge uses the Holy Bible but the Holy Bible is not of Masonic origins.  Ergo the Holy Bible is a symbol used by Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/14/2013 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
 

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.

In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  


I think what he meant was that the cornucopia symbol did not originate with the Masons. Just like the treasurers symbol is crossed keys, those aren't Masonic symbols; they are used in other institutions and originated in other institutions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 5:55am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
 

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.

In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  


I think what he meant was that the cornucopia symbol did not originate with the Masons. Just like the treasurers symbol is crossed keys, those aren't Masonic symbols; they are used in other institutions and originated in other institutions.


Yes that is exactly what I mean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DoctorAramis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 7:02am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
 

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.

In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  


I think what he meant was that the cornucopia symbol did not originate with the Masons. Just like the treasurers symbol is crossed keys, those aren't Masonic symbols; they are used in other institutions and originated in other institutions.

Ok so to be called a masonic symbol masons should have used it for the 1st time and if another group had 'invented' the symbol and masons also use it then its just a symbol that masons ALSO use.


Edited by DoctorAramis - June/15/2013 at 7:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 7:58am
So if you want to consider the cornucopia a Masonic symbol, fine, it is a Masonic symbol to you. I don't see that it is worth debating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 9:37am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Ram

4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy.

My 2 Cents,

Coach N

PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-)
 
Hi Coach,
 
This observation is fitting in with my research so far. 
As I learn more about the history of Freemasonry via my research on the Ram's headed cornucopia I may have grasped an aspect of the Craft that was, at the time, "Spurious Masonry" prior to the merging of Speculative and Operative at the construction of King So-lo-mon's Temple.
 
Also, Pythagoras seems to have used the Cornucopia as a symbol for abundance just as Pythagoras used the Beaver as a symbol for Noah (as sometimes Masons had referred to themselves as Noahites) because the ark lifted the initiate to a higher level of light.  This would exlpain the two Beavers on the outside wall of the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street, and why MIT's mascot is the Beaver and why the MIT 'brass rat' is a Beaver.
 
So the Ram may have been an important symbol in Spurious Masonry, but it might be a hold-over within Operative and Speculative Freemasonry???
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 9:38am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Ram

4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy.

My 2 Cents,

Coach N

PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-)
 
Hi Coach,
 
Your excellent observation is fitting in with my research so far.  Thank you for that.
 
Lemma:
As I learn more about the history of Freemasonry via my research on the Ram's headed cornucopia I may have grasped an aspect of the Craft that was, at the time, "Spurious Masonry" prior to the merging of Speculative and Operative at the construction of King So-lo-mon's Temple.
 
Also, Pythagoras seems to have used the Cornucopia as a symbol for abundance just as Pythagoras used the Beaver as a symbol for Noah (as sometimes Masons had referred to themselves as Noahites) because the ark lifted the initiate to a higher level of light.  This would exlpain the two Beavers on the outside wall of the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street, and why MIT's mascot is the Beaver and why the MIT 'brass rat' is a Beaver.
 
So the Ram may have been an important symbol in Spurious Masonry, but it might be a hold-over within Operative and Speculative Freemasonry???
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 9:51am
Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.
 
Hi DoctorAramis,
 
Probably my fault (I am not a Mason just to let you know).  I realize that the Freemasons did not invent the Cornucopia but have utilized it as a 'symbol' within their 'Craft' (and that is a good thing).  My question is why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden?

[QUOTE=DoctorAramis]In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  
 
Its not a 'Chinese' symbol generally, but a TAOIST symbol specifically.  Taoism is the indigenous religion of China.  Buddhism was imported into China from the West.  The Taoists and the Buddhists have been violent rivals within China for over 500 years.
 
The Taoists invented the "Yin/Yang" symbol Ying Yang and it is the emblem of their religion just as the Crucifix is the emblem of Catholicism.  I have been studying the religion of Taoism since 1970, and it is a favorite of mine (but it does have a dark side: torture chambers and rape being two negatives). 
 
The TAOISTS believe in physical IMMORTALITY, (Buddhists believe in reincarnation) and try to achieve it through internal alchemy, i.e. diet.  (See: Microbiotic diet).  In their centuries of alchemical experimentation to achieve physical IMMORTALITY, the Taoists invented the 'vitimin pill'.  The Taoists obviously did not find Immortality but they did achieve longevity, which is why you see a lot of spry 90 year old Chinese doing chin-ups in playgrounds!!
 
IMMORTALITY is not some kind of mystic bunk, it is a scientific possibility!!!!  It can be achieved by Science and there has been a lot of progress made so far.  The Taoists were ahead of the curve.
 
So the Ying Yang is a religious symbol, invented by the Taoists, is very profound and is worth your time to study. 
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DoctorAramis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 10:58am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.
 
Hi DoctorAramis,
 
Probably my fault (I am not a Mason just to let you know).  I realize that the Freemasons did not invent the Cornucopia but have utilized it as a 'symbol' within their 'Craft' (and that is a good thing).  My question is why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden?

[QUOTE=DoctorAramis]In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  
 
Its not a 'Chinese' symbol generally, but a TAOIST symbol specifically.  Taoism is the indigenous religion of China.  Buddhism was imported into China from the West.  The Taoists and the Buddhists have been violent rivals within China for over 500 years.
 

Just nit picking maybe but "Buddhism was imported into China from the West." That is only partially true as Buddhism originated in India and India is not generally considered 'the west' (but anyone east of India may be right when they say soTongue)

As far as your question goes "Why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden?
I am not very familiar with that particular artifact that you refer to but can say that as far as I know the 'masonic' symbolism does not include the Ram's head as far as I have come across. So your assumption that it may be related to a spurious branch of masonry may hold more water.

I too am interested in the study of Freemasonry as an academic. In case you are interested there is always a possibility for you as a non mason to attend and maybe even present a paper on this or any other topic that may related to  Freemasonry at the ICHF.
The statement of purpose is as follows:(
http://www.ichfonline.org/)

By holding a biennial conference open to the public, the main purpose of the ICHF is:

  • to promote Freemasonry as a subject for academic study.
  • to present and debate relevant contributions in this area of research.
  • to create a forum for interactions between researchers, experts and a wider audience.
  • to encourage individuals to take an interest and participate in an active exchange of knowledge in the area.

By the way I must say that I liked the fact that you persist in seeking answers to questions, I would be glad to answer any that I can and I know that there is a wealth of Knowledge in the forum.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

There is nothing masonic about the fountain. It is representative of how he lead his life as a giver and provider.

 
 
Hi BroScubaSteve,
 
Actually, according to the following scholarly works, there is quite a bit Masonic about that fountain:
 
1. MASONIC SYMBOLS IN AMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS (1976)
American Heritage Museum
 
2. MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine Archetypes (2005) BY Julius Ruiz
 
3. THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study (1991) by James Steven Curl.
 
In fact, as you can read from these three works, Freemasonry has a recognizable art and architectural style and methodology which is recognized by other professionals.   And that is why I am so insistant that memorial in the Boston Public Garden is as recognizable Neo-Classic Freemason art as Harvad University is of the Federalist style.
 
Other non-Mason 'Profanes?' individuals are obviously familiar with the outward appearances of Freemasonry to write books about it.
 
Please read the above small bibliography.
 
 
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/15/2013 at 3:37pm
Grimoire,

What exactly does the MASONIC SYMBOLS IN AMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS say about the memorial in the Public Gardens? Also the MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine Archetypes (2005) BY Julius Ruiz and  THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study (1991) by James Steven Curl?
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2013 at 1:00pm
I find it funny that you ask a question about something and then decide to argue the response we give you. If you know the answer why are you asking us the question? Some would label it a troll thread and should be locked as such.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2013 at 1:34pm
What evidence do you have that George Robert White and Henry Bacon were Freemasons? I am not saying they were not, but I can not find anything on the internet that says White was a Freemason, and the only thing I find that says Henry Bacon was is in the article you referenced http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/.

If you have evidence of their Masonic Membership please post the information such as the Lodge they were members of, degree dates, any information as far as their contributions to Freemasonry such as offices held.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2013 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Ram

4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy.

My 2 Cents,

Coach N

PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-)


 

Hi Coach,

 

This observation is fitting in with my research so far. 

As I learn more about the history of Freemasonry via my research on the Ram's headed cornucopia I may have grasped an aspect of the Craft that was, at the time, "Spurious Masonry" prior to the merging of Speculative and Operative at the construction of King So-lo-mon's Temple.

 

Also, Pythagoras seems to have used the Cornucopia as a symbol for abundance just as Pythagoras used the Beaver as a symbol for Noah (as sometimes Masons had referred to themselves as Noahites) because the ark lifted the initiate to a higher level of light.  This would exlpain the two Beavers on the outside wall of the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street, and why MIT's mascot is the Beaver and why the MIT 'brass rat' is a Beaver.

 

So the Ram may have been an important symbol in Spurious Masonry, but it might be a hold-over within Operative and Speculative Freemasonry???

To those untrained, the symbols used by any one organization or its members is often attributed to the organization by outside observers (and sometimes by those inside). Those who are well trained though realize that Masons use symbols that have been around long before the Fraternity came out of its closet and into the GL era. It is very easy to wrongly assume that the symbols used within the Fraternity originated there. That assumption would be wrong though.

Edited by coach - June/16/2013 at 4:13pm
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Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

... 
If he isn't a Mason, doesn't want to know the secrets, doesn't want to be a Mason.....then what is the point?? Why ask us to "interpret" masonic emblems for him??
 ... 
 
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck doing research for yet another masonic book (on ourside or not, dont matter)
 
I think I am going to ignore this post from here on in...


Edited by NobleShabba - June/17/2013 at 6:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:22am
Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by DoctorAramis DoctorAramis wrote:

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.

I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.
 
Hi DoctorAramis,
 
Probably my fault (I am not a Mason just to let you know).  I realize that the Freemasons did not invent the Cornucopia but have utilized it as a 'symbol' within their 'Craft' (and that is a good thing).  My question is why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden?

[QUOTE=DoctorAramis]In my mind the Ying Yang is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol?  
 
Its not a 'Chinese' symbol generally, but a TAOIST symbol specifically.  Taoism is the indigenous religion of China.  Buddhism was imported into China from the West.  The Taoists and the Buddhists have been violent rivals within China for over 500 years.
 

Just nit picking maybe but "Buddhism was imported into China from the West." That is only partially true as Buddhism originated in India and India is not generally considered 'the west' (but anyone east of India may be right when they say soTongue)

As far as your question goes "Why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden?
I am not very familiar with that particular artifact that you refer to but can say that as far as I know the 'masonic' symbolism does not include the Ram's head as far as I have come across. So your assumption that it may be related to a spurious branch of masonry may hold more water.

I too am interested in the study of Freemasonry as an academic. In case you are interested there is always a possibility for you as a non mason to attend and maybe even present a paper on this or any other topic that may related to  Freemasonry at the ICHF.
The statement of purpose is as follows:(
http://www.ichfonline.org/)

By holding a biennial conference open to the public, the main purpose of the ICHF is:

  • to promote Freemasonry as a subject for academic study.
  • to present and debate relevant contributions in this area of research.
  • to create a forum for interactions between researchers, experts and a wider audience.
  • to encourage individuals to take an interest and participate in an active exchange of knowledge in the area.

By the way I must say that I liked the fact that you persist in seeking answers to questions, I would be glad to answer any that I can and I know that there is a wealth of Knowledge in the forum.Smile
Hi DoctorAramis,
 
Thank you for that website, it seems very interesting.  But I think you and I are on this forum for two different reasons.  I am not doing research on all of Freemasonry, nor am I writing a book or a research paper.  These are the only Real Masons I have contact with and so far they are pretty nice guys and are very tolerant of some unintentionally intrusive questions.  And its all for my own personal self-edification - nothing else.
 
So whatever information I uncover I intend to keep it to myself and not share it with anyone else who is not a Mason, I am not trying to hurt a legitimate and beneficial fraternity with my dogged research techique (which I learned in graduate school: HIST UMASS 1987) or by accidentally letting the cat out of the bag.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:48am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

I find it funny that you ask a question about something and then decide to argue the response we give you. If you know the answer why are you asking us the question? Some would label it a troll thread and should be locked as such.
 
Hi BroScubaSteve,
 
When I ask a question on this site and I receive an answer that is inconsistent with several published Freemason works I have read, some of which were recommended on this very Mastermason forum, it tells me three things: 1. there is need for more clarification; 2. the Mason making a snap answer really doesn't know the answer, or 3. my question wasn't fully formed or it was misunderstood.  And this is true of any research on any subject matter.
 
 
Since my 'discovery' of Freemasonry about two months ago I have read over two dozens books on Freemasonry most of which were written by 32 degree or 33 degree Masons, and there is disagreement even amongst them. 
 
Some claim that accepted experts are now 'controversial' like Albert Pike or J. Ralston Skinner or J. D. Buck or Albert G. MacKay or Manly P. Hall or Jeremy L. Cross or John Kensey Stewart or Henry Wilson Coil or Joseph Fort Newton Arthur Edward Waite or John J. Robinson or Christopher Hodapp or Allen E. Roberts or Charles Clyde Hunt or Thomas Sargant or Mary Fairweather (The Passion Stroke 1906) or even George Oliver.
 
I have read books and manuals and essays by every one of these above listed authors, and there is no mutual consistency amongst them! And some have even disparaged another of these authors by name!!!  For example, John J. Robinson in his PILGRIM'S PATH questions the validity of W. L. Wilmshurst's book: THE MEANING OF MASONRY, even though this book is still being given as a gift to a candidate who has been raised to the "sublime degree" in current lodges (I am holding such a copy in my hand which I found in a box of donated books at Emmanuel Church here in Boston from a 2007 ceremony 6008 A.L.).
 
So I am not a troll, this is not a troll thread, I am using legitimate research methods, and I am asking questions with experience in logical interpretation.  It is obvious that not every Mason knows everything about the Craft and have not read every book on the subject - again this is true of any fraternity member or enthusiast.  Thank you!
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:49am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

I find it funny that you ask a question about something and then decide to argue the response we give you. If you know the answer why are you asking us the question? Some would label it a troll thread and should be locked as such.
 
Hi BroScubaSteve,
 
When I ask a question on this site and I receive an answer that is inconsistent with several published Freemason works I have read, some of which were recommended on this very Mastermason forum, it tells me three things: 1. there is need for more clarification; 2. the Mason making a snap answer really doesn't know the answer, or 3. my question wasn't fully formed or it was misunderstood.  And this is true of any research on any subject matter.
 
 
Since my 'discovery' of Freemasonry about two months ago I have read over two dozens books on Freemasonry most of which were written by 32 degree or 33 degree Masons, and there is disagreement even amongst them. 
 
Some claim that accepted experts are now 'controversial' like Albert Pike or J. Ralston Skinner or J. D. Buck or Albert G. MacKay or Manly P. Hall or Jeremy L. Cross or John Kensey Stewart or Henry Wilson Coil or Joseph Fort Newton or Arthur Edward Waite or John J. Robinson or Christopher Hodapp or Allen E. Roberts or Charles Clyde Hunt or Thomas Sargant or Mary Fairweather (The Passion Stroke 1906) or even George Oliver.
 
I have read books and manuals and essays by every one of these above listed authors, and there is no mutual consistency amongst them! And some have even disparaged another of these authors by name!!!  For example, John J. Robinson in his PILGRIM'S PATH questions the validity of W. L. Wilmshurst's book: THE MEANING OF MASONRY, even though this book is still being given as a gift to a candidate who has been raised to the "sublime degree" in current lodges (I am holding such a copy in my hand which I found in a box of donated books at Emmanuel Church here in Boston from a 2007 ceremony 6008 A.L.).
 
So I am not a troll, this is not a troll thread, I am using legitimate research methods, and I am asking questions with experience in logical interpretation.  It is obvious that not every Mason knows everything about the Craft and have not read every book on the subject - again this is true of any fraternity member or enthusiast.  Thank you!
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:55am
Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

Originally posted by GAmastermason GAmastermason wrote:

... 
If he isn't a Mason, doesn't want to know the secrets, doesn't want to be a Mason.....then what is the point?? Why ask us to "interpret" masonic emblems for him??
 ... 
 
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck doing research for yet another masonic book (on ourside or not, dont matter)
 
I think I am going to ignore this post from here on in...
 
Hi NobleShabba,
 
If it looks like a duck????
 
"THIS IS NOT A PIPE"
 
Then what is it??  Answer: It's a 'picture' of a Pipe!!
 
So if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, and swims like a duck - DOESN'T MEAN ITS A DUCK. 
 
That is a logically fallacy called Guilt by Association, and it should be avoided at all costs (maybe our Wrongful Incarceration would go down?).
 
This lesson should be part of an initiation??
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAMB.MASON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 2:38pm
   My dear fellow brothers, it has been a while since I have written on this forum on a topic, last time was to vent, this time, well hopefully, it will not get much negative response.  I was interested in this question by a fellow Massachusetts person, who came across something and asked, and like we all should, research, and ask, and seek further light.  Nothing wrong with asking, and perhaps some wording was taken out of context, but I was interested in this piece, and just recently stopped by the Gardens to see it myself.  I never knew about this fountain, and I have visited the Gardens since I was five years old, even falling into one of them as a youth, of course not listerning to my parents.
     As a collector and part time curator I find many hidden Masonic references in items, even hidden esotric meanings in our early aprons, and charts and paintings.  Like some early Masonic rituals and monitors, I have come across some liberties that some have done.  It could be that some items could be taken from Freemasonry and added to or embellished upon.  With the rich history that Boston offers, and the long history of Freemasonry here in Massachusetts, I am surprised that there are not more such clear or hidden Masonic items found.   I have done tours in cemeteries, and looked at buildings and streets and places to see what connections they have with Freemasonry.   It is interesting to a few, not all understand or want to understand or care to understand.   I enjoyed this topic, and perhaps it will lead me to visit more of the Gardens to see if there are Masonic or Non-Masonic items around, in the open or hidden. 
          Thanks Grimoire for some further light.


Edited by CAMB.MASON - June/17/2013 at 2:44pm
I remain Fraternally Yours:

Curator & Historian
Cambridge Masonic Temple Cambridge, Massachusetts



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Effingham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Three Masons on these forums all recommended the book FREEMASONRY FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp; and on pages 101-102 of this recommended work is a large drawing of a Cornucopia and a detailed description of how the Cornucopia is the 'Jewel' of both the Senior and Junior Stewards.
 
Now despite your literary pallindrome: my question to you is how is the Cornucopia not associated with Freemasonry?

You know, we also use chairs. That doesn't make "chairs associated with Freemasonry."

For the record, though, you keep reframing the argument. 

Freemasonry *uses the established symbol* of a Cornucopia. We don't have a copyright on it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 3:40pm
I too welcome inquiries and discoveries from those outside of the Craft. I think Grimoire is sincere about his curiosity and it does not appear to me that he has ulterior motives. I would like it though if he would answer the questions I put to him twice previously: What do the publications he cites say about the Masonic nature of the memorial in the Boston Public Gardens and what pages is this information on?

Also, I cannot find anything that says George Robert White was a Mason. That doesn't mean that he wasn't, but, Grimore, you state that he was. Where did you find this?

Couple things I do notice about the memorial: As has been stated, the ram's head is not used in Masonry. Also, the cornucopias in the memorial are not of the style used in Masonry. They are much more elaborate and bend up 90 degrees, whereas those used in Masonry have a more or less 45 degree bend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

I find it funny that you ask a question about something and then decide to argue the response we give you. If you know the answer why are you asking us the question? Some would label it a troll thread and should be locked as such.
 
Hi BroScubaSteve,
 
When I ask a question on this site and I receive an answer that is inconsistent with several published Freemason works I have read, some of which were recommended on this very Mastermason forum, it tells me three things: 1. there is need for more clarification; 2. the Mason making a snap answer really doesn't know the answer, or 3. my question wasn't fully formed or it was misunderstood.  And this is true of any research on any subject matter.
 
 
Since my 'discovery' of Freemasonry about two months ago I have read over two dozens books on Freemasonry most of which were written by 32 degree or 33 degree Masons, and there is disagreement even amongst them. 
 
Some claim that accepted experts are now 'controversial' like Albert Pike or J. Ralston Skinner or J. D. Buck or Albert G. MacKay or Manly P. Hall or Jeremy L. Cross or John Kensey Stewart or Henry Wilson Coil or Joseph Fort Newton Arthur Edward Waite or John J. Robinson or Christopher Hodapp or Allen E. Roberts or Charles Clyde Hunt or Thomas Sargant or Mary Fairweather (The Passion Stroke 1906) or even George Oliver.
 
I have read books and manuals and essays by every one of these above listed authors, and there is no mutual consistency amongst them! And some have even disparaged another of these authors by name!!!  For example, John J. Robinson in his PILGRIM'S PATH questions the validity of W. L. Wilmshurst's book: THE MEANING OF MASONRY, even though this book is still being given as a gift to a candidate who has been raised to the "sublime degree" in current lodges (I am holding such a copy in my hand which I found in a box of donated books at Emmanuel Church here in Boston from a 2007 ceremony 6008 A.L.).
 
So I am not a troll, this is not a troll thread, I am using legitimate research methods, and I am asking questions with experience in logical interpretation.  It is obvious that not every Mason knows everything about the Craft and have not read every book on the subject - again this is true of any fraternity member or enthusiast.  Thank you!


Emphasis mine.

Being a 32 or 33 Scottish Rite Mason does not impart any additional information on the Craft (blue) Lodge Degrees.  By the way in the USA if you are member of the Scottish Rite you are 32 degree Scottish Rite Mason.  The degrees are number for identification purposes and do not denote higher rank.  It's like asking which is more a law enforcement officer:  city officer, sheriff deputy, state trooper, park ranger, FBI agent, or DEA agent.
MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF

Living in the DC area.
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