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Steve Wozniak an Atheist or Agnostic a Freemaon?

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    Posted: October/09/2014 at 9:00am
Came across this little tidbit on the internet about celebrities who do not believe in God.:

 Steve Wozniak

Usually, to become a Freemason you are required to believe in God. Not for the legend behind Apple computers. An exception was made for Steve, who identifies himself as atheist or agnostic. He was initiated into a Freemason in 1979, and continues to be part of the group.

Anybody know anything about this? Something doesn't sound right to me. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 11:16am
It is possible to believe that man is the supreme architect of the universe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 2:39pm
Is it? We as mankind may well be part divine as having come from the supreme... but how could we BE the supreme?
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 2:47pm
After reading my previous post I feel it is grossly off topic of the OP thread, and may create a whole other discussion...lol. to the OP question; i believe it would be easy enough to investigate. Make contact with the lodge and/or the grand lodge he is supposedly a member of...

Edited by Adept? - October/09/2014 at 2:55pm
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Is it? We as mankind may well be part divine as having come from the supreme... but how could we BE the supreme?
 
I suppose it is reliant on how you view architect - and being it is such a subjective thing, to define words, I imagine it opens the flood gates of definition - So I think a person could reasonably say "Man creates cities and infrastructure and space craft, therefore is the "architect" of the Universe.  But if you define "architect" as creator, I would certainly agree that man falls far short of that definition.
 
Just some word play I suppose. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 3:30pm
I agree that would make man an earthly achitect. Certainly not the universe! Someone... something...some force...created the universe. Man can not create something out of nothing as the almighty did.
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 5:20pm
My issues with the statement are

 1. It states an exception was made for Steve Wozniak. Can't do that.  Belief in a Supreme Being is a Landmark. Can't make exceptions to Landmarks under any circumstances. 

2. States that he is an atheist or agnostic. If atheist he should not be able to get in. No exceptions. Or did I miss something somewhere along the way? If agnostic- well, this is where it gets sticky in my view. My understanding is that an agnostic does not deny the existence of a Supreme Being, yet won't come out and say that there definitely is one. My understanding of the Landmark is that one must state their belief in the existence of a Supreme Being; one cannot be on the fence about it.

Steve Wozniak is probably a very good man but- what's this about an exception being made for him? Or is that a journalist not knowing what they are talking about? (I know that is rare but it does happen from time to time...Wink)

Yes guys, could we keep this on topic?


Edited by droche - October/09/2014 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 6:09pm
From the wonderful world of Wikipedia:

"He is a Freemason, despite not having faith in a supreme being (which is required by Masonic rules). Wozniak describes his impetus for joining the Freemasons as being able to spend more time with his wife at the time, Alice. Alice belonged to the Order of the Eastern Star, associated with the Masons. Wozniak has said that he quickly rose to a third degree Freemason because, whatever he does, he tries to do well. He was initiated in 1979 at Charity Lodge No. 362 in Campbell, California, now part of Mt. Moriah Lodge No. 292 in Los Gatos."

Although he has called himself "atheist or agnostic", he has also referred to himself as "spiritual on the inside."

Personally, I don't see the need to try his religious beliefs.  He was asked in whom he puts his trust, and he obviously gave an appropriate answer. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2014 at 6:34pm
Perhaps he is Deist?  I do agree though that, even with good intentions, an avowed atheist should not be allowed to join or maintain membership.  Agnostic, to me, is acceptable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 1:02am

It does seem to me that the concepts of God coming from the Jewish tradition are very cultural in nature.

I am equally happy with the idea of unmanifest Beingness and with the Force.

A candidate may be quite clear that Life has meaning or that some Intelligence underlies all existence, without speaking of a God or a volume of sacred law/lore.

Thus it seems to me that a candidate who is a Deist rather than a Theist should be just as welcome.

So a Deist is not a Theist and therefore is atheist - but hopefully not a stupid atheist.


Edited by Ozzie - October/10/2014 at 1:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:


 ...
So a Deist is not a Theist and therefore is atheist - but hopefully not a stupid atheist.


A Deist is not an atheist!    ...  I say this again:  A Deist is not an atheist! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 9:38am
Deism (Listeni/ˈd.ɪzəm/[1][2] or /ˈd.ɪzəm/) is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a Creator, accompanied with the rejection of authority as a source of religious knowledge.
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anthony660 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 11:53am
@ Droche-What evidence do you have that an exception was made?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rchadwic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 1:43pm
I note that Mt Moriah Lodge has a web site.
www.mtmoriah292.org/

Might I suggest that those interested in this issue go to the source and ask??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:


Thus it seems to me that a candidate who is a Deist rather than a Theist should be just as welcome.

So a Deist is not a Theist and therefore is atheist - but hopefully not a stupid atheist.
 
These statements seem contradictory, but I'm sure it was just a typo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 3:47pm
The term "stupid atheist" appears in an early Masonic writing:

"James Anderson's 1723 Constitutions state that "A Mason is oblig'd by his Tenure, to obey the moral Law, and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist, nor an irreligious Libertine."

The point I was making was that while Anderson objects to "stupid atheists", he does not necessarily take the same view of atheists generally.

I presume there is no misunderstanding that the word "atheist" is constructed as "a" meaning "not" and "theist".  Thus any one who is not a theist is necessarily an a-theist.  This includes deists.





Edited by Ozzie - October/10/2014 at 3:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

   ...

The point I was making was that while Anderson objects to "stupid atheists", he does not necessarily take the same view of atheists generally.  ...
 

How do you derive that meaning from Anderson's written statement, you've talked to him?    He was referring to ALL atheists as being stupid and did not use any words to indicate 'some' or 'part of' as a way to divide the group.  'Atheists' is All inclusive.

Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

   ... I presume there is no misunderstanding that the word "atheist" is constructed as "a" meaning "not" and "theist".  Thus any one who is not a theist is necessarily an a-theist.  This includes deists. 


You presume wrong.   Atheist has NO BELIEF of a supreme  being.  They can still have a theology (theist) and most do.  ... Deist DO Believe in Supreme Being as Creator of ALL things; but generally do not subscribe to  all the rules or theology of the Church.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

... you've talked to him?    He was referring to ALL atheists as being stupid ...


It seems that you are better acquainted with Anderson than I am.   

If "stupid atheist" means that all atheists are stupid, would "amoral Mason" mean that all Masons are amoral?





Edited by Ozzie - October/10/2014 at 6:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

The term "stupid atheist" appears in an early Masonic writing:
 Thus any one who is not a theist is necessarily an a-theist.  This includes deists.
 
Maybe your style of writing is throwing me off.  Are you trying to say Deist's and athiests are the same? or are you saying that they are not?  In terms of an earlier point, I'd argue that the only bar to entry into the fraternity would be either the athiest or the anti-theist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:13pm
My view is that being a-theist is not a disqualification in itself.  Deists are perfectly acceptable to me even if they reject the idea of a specific god.

May the Force be with them!


Theism is a distinctly cultural approach to spirituality.  It is not so common in Buddhist countries.  How can Masonry be universal if it is culturally biased?








Edited by Ozzie - October/10/2014 at 6:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Ozzie Ozzie wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

... you've talked to him?    He was referring to ALL atheists as being stupid ...


It seems that you are better acquainted with Anderson than I am.   

If "stupid atheist" means that all atheists are stupid, would "amoral Mason" mean that all Masons are amoral?



  ... Then why are you trying to give interpretations to his words? You are only stating your own opinion.       ... As far as 'amoral mason'   ... i don't know you wrote it with no context of usage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rchadwic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2014 at 8:35pm
Hey, guys... Is it my imagination or has this thread been hijacked?

I thought the subject was Steve Wozniak...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2014 at 7:35am
Well ... the opening did give an opening for Atheist & Deist   ... But I agree it is drifting to the more general discussion than that of Steve Wozniak.

Oh by the way ... He is scheduled to be a guest speaker in Tallahassee, Fl.  Tickets are $45.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2014 at 11:41am
What is he going to be speaking about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2014 at 2:09pm
One of the web site is http://www.tallahasseedowntown.com/events/power-forward-speaker-series-steve-wozniak

I think it is a motivational speech.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2014 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Anthony660 Anthony660 wrote:

@ Droche-What evidence do you have that an exception was made?


The evidence I have is the statement in the article I cited that an exception was made. As I later noted, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, was that journalists were not always accurate. One of the things I was hoping might come from this thread was whether or not an exception was in fact made and whether the article was accurate.

I agree, this thread has drifted off my original intent. I read the article. It seemed strange; we do not make exceptions for atheists, my ritual says no atheist can be made a Mason. I was not sure how agnostics would be handled. The article said we made an exception- that did not make sense to me. The article stated that he was atheist or agnostic. That made no sense to me. In my view one cannot be an atheist or agnostic; he is either one or another.

So I was hoping someone might know what was really going on here.


Edited by droche - October/12/2014 at 10:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2014 at 11:59am
The comment comes from this web site and appears to be an email answer by Steve.
http://archive.woz.org/letters/general/72.html

Also, Wikipedia credits the comment to an interview by Brian Riley (2012). "Interview with Steve Wozniak".    In that article I do not find any such statement.  But there is these questions and his answers.

Quote ...

RILEY: So would you say that you’re not religious in the conventional sense?

WOZ: Exactly. However, I’m kind of spiritual inside. I have a lot of philosophies of how to be a good person, how to treat people, and I’ve worked them out, thinking over and over, reflecting inside my mind the way shy people do, and I was very shy, and coming up with my own little keys and rules for life, and they stayed with me, very, very deep core — [recording stops]

RILEY: Can we have morality without religion?

WOZ: I was never in a church. Actually, I’d never go to church. It actually came to play a great deal in my life, because I was in college and the Viet Nam War was going on and you had to prove you were a college student, so instead of filing form number 1049, or whatever, I filed my report cards. San Jose draft board votes 5 to 3 to make me “1A,” eligible for the draft for one year. Oh God, and to fight it, you know, I don’t mind being shot at, but I would never shoot at someone else. So I was a conscientious objector, but you weren’t allowed off unless you were in an official church. Well, to me going to an official church means saying the same words, singing the same song, saying everything the same time as everyone else. That’s following, that’s not leading. I wasn’t going to just go and be one more follower, you know, I want to be a thinker. So I didn’t have a church, and eventually the draft lottery came out and I got number 325 out of 365, so I was going to be safe for my year. The next week the draft board sends me a notice saying they’re granting my student deferment, and that meant they could make me “1A” in a later year. So I just lost all faith in the government being for the people at that point.  ...


In my opinion Steve is a Deist.   He has a belief and makes reference to God several times in that interview.   ... The Lodge he joined would not have to make any exception for him.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSawyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2014 at 2:27pm
Ed seems to confirm that Steve is likely a Diest, Agnostic, or perhaps even a secular Christian.  Without denying the exitence of God, I think that at least ends any question of whether or not his membership in the Fraternity is fraudulent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2014 at 3:44pm
He's not an agnostic.   ... An Agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves.   He must be shown proof.   Agnostic says nothing in this world proves nor disproves the existence of a God.

Steve Wozniak used the words 'atheist & agnostic' and then stated he didn't know the difference between them.    So he missed used the to words because in the quoted interview above he clearly states that he is spiritual.  This is neither an atheist nor an agnostic.


Edited by edwmax - October/12/2014 at 3:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2014 at 4:29pm
Sounds good to me. Someone PM'd me and suggested I go to his lodge's website and ask them. I could have done that, but I thought it was a good topic to generate some discussion here as well as ferreting out the facts.
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