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    Posted: January/15/2015 at 8:34pm
A MASONIC CREED

Freemasonry teaches the universal principle of unselfish friendship and promotes those moral precepts which are in keeping with all great faiths. In pursuing this doctrine, the following, though not exclusive, is considered to be basic:

MASONIC BELIEFS

Mankind was created by one God.

This one God is the author of all life.

God's existence is revealed to man through faith and the Book of Holy Scriptures.

The Book of Holy Scriptures is the Ultimate Authority or Great Light of Freemasonry.

The soul of man is immortal.

Man's commitment to Divine Providence determines his destiny.

Man's reverence for God is best exemplified by his actions toward his fellow man.

Considering the universality of Freemasonry, its teachings cannot be defined in any single statement or established profile. The following is considered to be representative of its fundamental precepts and constitutes basic:

MASONIC TEACHINGS

Man's first duty is to love and revere God, implore His aid in all laudable undertakings, and seek His guidance through prayer, embrace and practice the tenets of religion, extend charity and sympathy to all mankind, shield and support the widow and orphan, defend virtue, respect the aged, honor the bonds of friendship, protect the helpless, lift up the oppressed, comfort the downcast, restore dignity to the rejected, respect the laws of government, promote morality, and add to the common stock of knowledge and understanding.




Edited by 2B11044 - January/15/2015 at 8:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2015 at 9:52am
well said - is there a source for this?
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2015 at 10:33pm
Sorry, but those are not necessarily the beliefs of all Masons or Grand Lodges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 4:40am
Originally posted by 2B11044 2B11044 wrote:


 embrace and practice the tenets of religion

This is the only part I 100% disagree with.  Spirituality, and faith are not synonymous with religion.  I truly and firmly believe that spirituality brings people together, while religion separates them.  That is where the beauty in Freemasonry lies... not one religion, but one faith; is required for membership.  Simply a faith in a supreme being.  
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 12:55pm
But some GLs do require a specific profession of faith, I.e., Christian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CanadianPaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 4:14pm
In both of the Constitutions to which I belong the only 'religious' requirement stated in their 'Constitution and Laws' is a belief in a 'Supreme Being'. The only other requirements specifically listed are 'being of mature age, free and of good report'.
Paul Miller, Ass'nt. Gr. Sec. (Hon. Scot.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rchadwic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 4:44pm
I'd be interested to know which Grand Lodges you are referring to that require a specific profession of Christianity, Bro Cooksic.
Please provide us with more details.
Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by rchadwic rchadwic wrote:

I'd be interested to know which Grand Lodges you are referring to that require a specific profession of Christianity, Bro Cooksic.
Please provide us with more details.
Thank you.
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The Swedish Rite requires its members to be Christians
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Originally posted by 2B11044 2B11044 wrote:


 embrace and practice the tenets of religion

This is the only part I 100% disagree with.  Spirituality, and faith are not synonymous with religion.  I truly and firmly believe that spirituality brings people together, while religion separates them.  That is where the beauty in Freemasonry lies... not one religion, but one faith; is required for membership.  Simply a faith in a supreme being.  
I agree with this to a point. People seperate themselves, religion is just the vehicle or justfication for the seperation. People proceeded religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2015 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by BigBob BigBob wrote:

the Swedish Rite requires its members to be Christians

Then with all due respect; the Swedish Rite (which I've never heard of) is not Freemasonry... Not at all. Although, if it is an appendant body of some kind then that is different. The York rite requires you to swear an oath of allegiance to the Christian faith when you reach a certain degree. (Which is why I've never joined York rite.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kev146g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2015 at 6:07am
Not all lodges or grand lodges beleave in a supream being for exampl  the Grand Orient De France atheists  can join the GODF is the larges in France
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CanadianPaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2015 at 8:16am
The 'Swedish Rite' is the form that 'Regular' Freemasonry takes in Sweden, Norway and some other Scandinavian countries. In detail it can be quite different from what we are used to and there is a heavily Christian element involved. Neverthless most, if not all, 'Regular" Grand Lodges are in amity with it and Master Masons from Grand Lodges which are can attend meetings of their first three degrees while their Master Masons may attend ours. I have say in lodge with a visiting brother from a Norwegian lodge who later affiliated with a lodge here while still remaining also a member of his Morwegian lodge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2015 at 10:30pm
It is always parlous for an individual Mason to declare what is, or is not, Freemasonry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Merv S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2015 at 11:55pm
Not quite sure about about your last post. The thread has rather drifted from the OP. From what I have read thus far, nobody is expounding any declaration along the lines that you suggest. What is important is how each of us interpret the tenets of the Craft and utilize them to strive for personal growth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 7:58am
^^The declaration that the Swedish Rite is not Freemasonry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Cookslc Cookslc wrote:

It is always parlous for an individual Mason to declare what is, or is not, Freemasonry.


I assume the word that you were trying to use is "perilous". If I am correct in that assumption then my response is this: BLUE LODGE FREEmasonry is an organisation composed of FREE men with FREE spirits that are capable of FREE thought, and FREEDOM of, and from, religion. For a fraternal organization to call itself freemasonry and initiate individuals to the 3 principal degrees of blue lodge, but with the stipulation that they must be of a specific religious belief or faith is contrary to what blue lodge freemasonry is all about. Freemasonry is such a widespread and wonderful organization specifically because it doesn't put up walls and boundaries of religious beliefs, it tears them down and allows anyone regardless of their specific religious denomination to join and be welcomed as, and be called a BROTHER. As I stated before, there are appendant bodies of Freemasonry such as the York Rite that do require an oath of allegiance to the Christian faith and that is fine for those brothers who are of the Christian faith and choose to join that appendant body, but for an organisation claiming to be Blue Lodge Freemasonry to require a specific belief in any faith or denomination is not blue lodge Freemasonry. I consider my statements herein to be factual. You are FREE to think whatever you wish.

Edited by Adept? - February/13/2015 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

...but for an organisation claiming to be Blue Lodge Freemasonry to require a specific belief in any faith or denomination is not blue lodge Freemasonry...

You may want to take this up with your Grand Lodge since they recognize the Grand Lodge of Sweden as does all of the other Grand Lodges in the US and Canada, the UGLE, the Grand Lodge of Scotland and the Grand Lodge of Ireland. (see links below). 



Edited by YES - February/13/2015 at 12:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

 I assume the word that you were trying to use is "perilous".

parlous

 adjective par·lous \ˈpär-ləs\

: full of danger or risk

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parlous

 

perilous

 adjective per·il·ous \ˈper-ə-ləs, ˈpe-rə-\

: full of danger

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perilous

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 1:25pm
thank you for the vocabulary lesson, as stated above I assumed it was a misspelling of perilous. don't I have egg on my face. but hey, I learned a new word. Granted one that has the exact same meaning as a word I already knew, but... whatever. as far as the recognition goes, I am aware that we have recognition...and that means absolutely nothing to me. I stand by my statement above if an organisation claiming to be blue lodge Freemasonry requires anything more than a belief in a Supreme Being ie. specific denominations such as Christianity Judaism Islam Hinduism Buddhism..etc. It is not blue lodge freemasonry, but a perverted adaptation of it. I suppose I should not have stated it was a fact. I guess it's just my firm belief and what I've been taught for the last 9 years that I've been a member...and therefore my... not so humble opinion. I'm all for brotherhood but perhaps we should not have recognition with an organization such as that. I don't know for sure but I would venture a guess that approximately 97 percent of the world's lodges have the exact same requirement that we do here in the united states. you must believe in a diety. whatever denomination you choose is private and is not to be spoken of in lodge, except maybe to determine the volume of Sacred Law that should be on the altar. religion and politics... two subjects off limits as topics of conversation in open lodge by our constitution here in Maine and if I'm not mistaken the United States as a whole.

Edited by Adept? - February/13/2015 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Originally posted by BigBob BigBob wrote:

the Swedish Rite requires its members to be Christians

Then with all due respect; the Swedish Rite (which I've never heard of) is not Freemasonry... Not at all. Although, if it is an appendant body of some kind then that is different. The York rite requires you to swear an oath of allegiance to the Christian faith when you reach a certain degree. (Which is why I've never joined York rite.)


If your didn't know anything about the 'Swedish Rite' then you should not have stated an opinion until doing a little research.  This topic of the Swedish Rite has been discussed several times in the past and easy to look up.

The Swedish Rite is Freemasonry and recognized by the UGLE and most other regular GLs of the US & world.    The Swedish Rite is a 'York Rite' based system where the 'Craft Lodges' were never separated from the higher degrees.   When a Mason advances (he is required/expected to advance) in this system, he only pays dues to the highest Lodge/Chapter/Emcampment to which he belongs.     ... (Sorry ... but this also bust the most Mason's contention that no degree is higher than the 3rd degree of the Craft Lodge.)

The requirement to be Christian was because citizens of Sweden were required to be of the national religion. Which up until 1954 (???) was Lutheran.  The requirement for all citizens to be of the national Religion has long since been repealed or abandon. But, the majority of the Swedish population is Christain and mainly of the Lutheran faith.

Any Mason can visit Lodges of the Swedish Rite to which they can prove themselves.  However, Candidates petitioning for the degrees in the Swedish Rites must be Christain because they are expected to advance in the Higher degrees of the Swedish Rites (York Rites).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by YES YES wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

 I assume the word that you were trying to use is "perilous".

parlous

 adjective par·lous \ˈpär-ləs\

: full of danger or risk

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parlous

 

perilous

 adjective per·il·ous \ˈper-ə-ləs, ˈpe-rə-\

: full of danger

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perilous



Two different spellings of the same word.  Parlous is a middle English 'altered' spelling of perilous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 8:15pm
 
Originally posted by kev146g kev146g wrote:

Not all lodges or grand lodges beleave in a supream being for exampl  the Grand Orient De France atheists  can join the GODF is the larges in France


This is why they are Clandestine.  They do not maintain the Landmark requirements of Freemasonry:  ref: UGLE Book of Constitutions; PRINCIPLES FOR GRAND LODGE RECOGNITION
http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/book-of-constitutions

Originally posted by </b><b>Book of Constitutions Book of Constitutions wrote:


2. That a belief in the G.A.O.T.U. and His revealed will shall be an essential qualification for membership.

3. That all Initiates shall take their Obligation on or in full view of the open Volume of the Sacred Law, by which is meant the revelation from above which is binding on the conscience of the
particular individual who is being initiated.

....
6. That the three Great Lights of Freemasonry (namely, the Volume of the Sacred Law, the Square, and the Compasses) shall always be exhibited when the Grand Lodge or its subordinate Lodges are at work, the chief of these being the Volume of the Sacred Law.  



Edited by edwmax - February/13/2015 at 8:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2015 at 9:46pm
Re: parlous, Middle English. Yeah, I'm that old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kev146g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 4:25am
Edwmax I think you will  find that the GODF are not clandestine just not recognised by most grand lodges. In fact GODF and the other French GL (cant remember the name) are have a big meeting in a few months which may lead to them been recognised. Also GODF is recognised by a few other European and south American grand lodges. Any way it does not matter if they are clandestine, irregular or bogus they are still masons just a different type of mason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eagle-751 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 6:30am
Originally posted by kev146g kev146g wrote:

...  Any way it does not matter if they are clandestine, irregular or bogus they are still masons just a different type of mason.


Sorry Mr. kev146g, I disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 7:22am
Originally posted by kev146g kev146g wrote:

Edwmax I think you will  find that the GODF are not clandestine just not recognised by most grand lodges. In fact GODF and the other French GL (cant remember the name) are have a big meeting in a few months which may lead to them been recognised. Also GODF is recognised by a few other European and south American grand lodges. Any way it does not matter if they are clandestine, irregular or bogus they are still masons just a different type of mason.


Obviously, you are being inventive to the definition of the word Clandestine.

From my GL Code:

Quote ...
Clandestine—Regular Masons.—Only members in good standing in
the Subordinate Lodges of the Grand Lodge of ____________. Free and Accepted
Masons, and members in good standing in the Subordinate Lodges of the
Grand Lodges of other Masonic jurisdictions with whom this Grand Lodge
enjoys full fraternal relationship and comity, are regular and entitled to be recognized
as such. All other purported Masonic Grand Lodges and members of
Subordinate Lodges thereof are irregular and clandestine.
   


From the UGLE Book of Constitutions:
Quote
....
8. The Grand Lodge is aware that there do exist Bodies, styling
themselves Freemasons, which do not adhere to these principles,
and while that attitude exists the Grand Lodge of England refuses
absolutely to have any relations with such Bodies, or to regard them
as Freemasons.
 
    

Apparently, you do not support the very Constitutions to which you Obligate yourself to uphold. If you think you can visit & sit in a GOOF Lodge, then do so and brag about it in your Lodge when you return.


Edited by edwmax - February/14/2015 at 7:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 7:31am
Originally posted by Cookslc Cookslc wrote:

Re: parlous, Middle English. Yeah, I'm that old.


Your forgiven  .... i believe that I'm actually older than you. You bio doesn't give your yob.  But, your University date puts you about 10 years after me.

Welcome back to the forums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 8:05am
Grand Orient of France is considered clandestine by the Home GLs and CGMNA GLs. As noted at the Phoenix Freemasonry site: 

      The main objection to the Grand Orient is that they do NOT require a belief in a “Supreme Being” and they do not require that a “Volume of Sacred Law” is to be on the Alter [sic].    They do allow individual lodges to have those requirements, but that is left up to the local lodge.

Thus, they would not be considered regular under UGLE and CGMNA standards. It may be that you are confusing GOdF with GLdF, the latter of which is considered by some to be regular in practice. Remember, however, the response when MN recognized GLdF.

I suspect the meeting to which you refer was the proposed Alliance. However, I recollect that UGLE was quite clear that inclusion of irregular groups, such as GOdF, would result in any confederation being considered irregular as well.   I have not gone back through my correspondence to review the letter and you are certainly free to review your copy and correct me.



Edited by Cookslc - February/14/2015 at 9:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

...I stand by my statement above if an organisation claiming to be blue lodge Freemasonry requires anything more than a belief in a Supreme Being ie. specific denominations such as Christianity Judaism Islam Hinduism Buddhism..etc. It is not blue lodge freemasonry, but a perverted adaptation of it...

While only a belief in a Supreme Being is now almost universally considered a requirement for “Regularity”, to deny the influence of Christianity on the origins of Freemasonry is to deny its history.

The following statement is often quoted as the origin of that requirement:

…”tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves…”
Anderson’s Constitution of 1723

However, this statement is open to interpretation and met with some resistance at the time:

“Another cause of trouble in the early years of the first Grand Lodge was the adoption of the "Paragraph Concerning God and Religion" in Anderson's Constitutions. Prior to 1717 the rank and file of Craftsmen had been of the Christian persuasion and the Craft itself, to judge by its own Constitutions, had been frankly Trinitarian Christian. The new Constitutions, now associated with the name of Anderson, changed all this; according to its somewhat ambiguous wording a Mason was required to be only of that religion "in which all good men agree". This did not please those who wished to see Freemasonry remain specifically Christian; consequently they made trouble about it.”

In fact some interpreted it as follows:

“Anderson made it possible, and this was his whole and complete aim, for fellow Christians to sit together in Lodge, without hassles and arguments… so the Lodge became the only sanctuary in England where a Scottish Presbyterian and an English Anglican could sit side by side, and together, without any hesitation, say they believed in the Great Architect of the Universe… Anderson, far from taking Christianity out of the Lodge, gave us a wonderful and far-reaching vision of the true essence of Christianity.”

So, keeping in mind that “The first regular lodge in Sweden was started in 1735…” (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/swedish_faq.html), the restriction of membership to Christians was not considered remarkable.

Further, part of the Master Mason degree is distinctly Christian.



Edited by YES - February/14/2015 at 9:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 1:05pm
Considering Christianity and its teachings are not original,and have all been borrowed and adapted from much much older ancient society's religions to fit it's own needs and agenda, I would refer to it as nothing more than another tooth on the gear of freemasonry. I would love to know more about the part of the MM degree that you say is "distinctly Christian" although that may be something for a private message or maybe a new thread on the tyled forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 2:13pm
@ YES

I disagree with H L Haywood's implication that the GLofE became non-Christian when it formed in 1717.    The fact is the Lodges were still Christian and worked under the various Old Constitutional MS which required Masons to be Christian.   Due to other conflicts of the different MS, Rev. & Dr. James Anderson was asked to write the Book of Constitution published in 1723.  ... There may have been some discord as described by Haywood due to Christian theology.  I'll have to research that.

Originally posted by YES YES wrote:

   ....
…”tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves…”
Anderson’s Constitution of 1723
However, this statement is open to interpretation and met with some resistance at the time: 
.....


Masons of the time did not understand the full implication of that statement.   ... However, the Rituals in use were Christian.   It was about 1730 the Rituals were revised to removed the Christian aspects.   The first non-Christian (a Jew) as admitted & initiated into Freemasonry in 1732.

It has been a while since I researched this topic. I have to locate my notes & references.  This is what I have wrote:

The  Rituals were revised by Dr. James Anderson.  He was an ordained a minister in the Church of Scotland in 1707 and after moving to London, a Presbyterian Minister.  It was Rev. James Anderson (under guidance & at the request of Desaquliers) that removed the obvious Christian references from our Rituals in the early 1730's so that men of all faiths could join Freemasonry.


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

@ YES

I disagree with H L Haywood's implication that the GLofE became non-Christian when it formed in 1717.    The fact is the Lodges were still Christian and worked under the various Old Constitutional MS which required Masons to be Christian.   Due to other conflicts of the different MS, Rev. & Dr. James Anderson was asked to write the Book of Constitution published in 1723.  ... There may have been some discord as described by Haywood due to Christian theology.  I'll have to research that.

Originally posted by YES YES wrote:

   ....
…”tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves…”
Anderson’s Constitution of 1723
However, this statement is open to interpretation and met with some resistance at the time: 
.....


Masons of the time did not understand the full implication of that statement.   ... However, the Rituals in use were Christian.   It was about 1730 the Rituals were revised to removed the Christian aspects.   The first non-Christian (a Jew) as admitted & initiated into Freemasonry in 1732.

It has been a while since I researched this topic. I have to locate my notes & references.  This is what I have wrote:

The  Rituals were revised by Dr. James Anderson.  He was an ordained a minister in the Church of Scotland in 1707 and after moving to London, a Presbyterian Minister.  It was Rev. James Anderson (under guidance & at the request of Desaquliers) that removed the obvious Christian references from our Rituals in the early 1730's so that men of all faiths could join Freemasonry.


 

I do not disagree with you that the GL of E did not become non-Christian at it formation in 1717 or about the timing of removing the obvious Christian references.  I was just pointing out to Adept? that "Christian Freemasonry" is not "a perverted adaptation of it" as he stated and that it was actually the early form of Freemasonry at least until 1717 and later, and that at the time of the formation of the first masonic Lodge in Sweden in 1735, a requirement of the belief in Christianity certainly would not have been considered "irregular".

Your post has added additional support for that point.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 2:54pm
Just to clarify, I am not saying that the current requirement of a belief in a Supreme Being should be changed, but historical fact is historical fact.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

   Although, if it is an appendant body of some kind then that is different. The York rite requires you to swear an oath of allegiance to the Christian faith when you reach a certain degree. (Which is why I've never joined York rite.)


Originally posted by EDWMAX EDWMAX wrote:

The Swedish Rite is a 'York Rite' based system where the 'Craft Lodges' were never separated from the higher degrees.


So basically what I said... The Swedish Rite first 3 degrees would be considered part of the York rite system (an appendant body) just like the Scottish rite has its own set of the first 3 degrees. Blue lodge Freemasonry admits all, and the Scottish rite admits all... The York rite, and York rite based rites such as the Swedish Rite are (what I will label) "Christian freemasonry" which as I stated before, that I believe to be in contradiction with traditional blue lodge Freemasonry for the majority of the world, and taking away from the beauty and harmony that it can create when the boundaries of specific religion are erased. Thanks to edwmax for the clarification

Edited by Adept? - February/14/2015 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

   Although, if it is an appendant body of some kind then that is different. The York rite requires you to swear an oath of allegiance to the Christian faith when you reach a certain degree. (Which is why I've never joined York rite.)


Originally posted by EDWMAX EDWMAX wrote:

The Swedish Rite is a 'York Rite' based system where the 'Craft Lodges' were never separated from the higher degrees.


So basically what I said... The Swedish Rite first 3 degrees would be considered part of the York rite system (an appendant body) just like the Scottish rite has its own set of the first 3 degrees. Blue lodge Freemasonry admits all, and the Scottish rite admits all... The York rite, and York rite based rites such as the Swedish Rite are (what I will label) "Christian freemasonry" which as I stated before, that I believe to be in contradiction with traditional blue lodge Freemasonry for the majority of the world, and taking away from the beauty and harmony that it can create when the boundaries of specific religion are erased. Thanks to edwmax for the clarification

If you are a member of the Grand Lodge of Maine, I think you will find that with the exception of the Lodges in the 16th Masonic District in Louisiana and a few other possible exceptions that work in the Scottish Rite, you along with all other Blue/Symbolic/Craft Lodges in the U S work in the York Rite, however in the U S the requirement of being a Christian is only to join a Commandery of Knights Templar.


"As a member of a Symbolic Lodge, you have already started through the York Rite which consists of a Lodge, a Chapter, a Council and a Commandery of Knights Templar..."

http://www.yorkriteofmaine.org/Information/pageYorkRiteInfo.php


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 4:14pm
Yes, that is the case, but all blue lodges are independent of either system. The York and Scottish rites are completely separate appendant bodies. Unless you petition and join one or the other,you are considered a blue lodge mason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 6:27pm
It could be argued, if not a fact, that the original requirememnt to be a Christian had more to do with English Law than it did with Masonic Law.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 7:00pm
And just as point of clarification, in many jurisdictions the Chapter and Council are decidely non-Christian and to my knowledge no YR body requires membership in the KT. I'm in the Chapter and Council, but I am not a member of the KT, although this is due to my inability to make it to the meetings rather than having an issue with the Christian belief requirement.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by BigBob BigBob wrote:

It could be argued, if not a fact, that the original requirememnt to be a Christian had more to do with English Law than it did with Masonic Law.


This is true as the Christian requirement has much more to do with the spread for Masonry by the Romans, Comacine Masters, and Catholicism.   And historically Masonry has a much longer history of requiring its Members to be Christian than the current non-Christian requirement of 'modern specultive' Freemasonry of the last 250 years.   Traditional Masonry of the opertive Guilds was Christian due to the fact the 'owners' (Church or King/Government) required all workers to be so. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 12:33am
No, the first three degrees (the Symbolic Degrees) of the Swedish Rite are not York Rite. They are Swedish Rite, thus the name. It is a single rite of (essentially) 10 degrees. You will find a similar structure in the Rectified Scottish Rite, which is also Christian and in some countries works the Symbolic Degrees as well as the Haute Grades as the Swedish Rite does.   Note, both of these Christian Rites conferring the Symbolic Degrees were in existence before the GL of Maine. One might argue that the "De-Christianizing" of Masonry in England and the lack of Christianity in the junior GL of Maine were innovations in the Body of Freemasonry :)

Just a clarification: there are a number Christian Masonic orders in the US other than KT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kev146g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 7:34am
Edwmax where have i said this


Apparently, you do not support the very Constitutions to which you Obligate yourself to uphold. If you think you can visit & sit in a GOOF Lodge, then do so and brag about it in your Lodge when you return.

all I said was that they are mason just not the same as most of us and tbh i would talk to them as masons but being careful what was said ( even if they already know )
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"...and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 8:42am
Originally posted by kev146g kev146g wrote:

Edwmax where have i said this


Apparently, you do not support the very Constitutions to which you Obligate yourself to uphold. If you think you can visit & sit in a GOOF Lodge, then do so and brag about it in your Lodge when you return.

all I said was that they are mason just not the same as most of us and tbh i would talk to them as masons but being careful what was said ( even if they already know )


OK ...
Originally posted by kev146g kev146g wrote:

Edwmax I think you will  find that the GODF are not clandestine just not recognised by most grand lodges. In fact GODF and the other French GL (cant remember the name) are have a big meeting in a few months which may lead to them been recognised. Also GODF is recognised by a few other European and south American grand lodges. Any way it does not matter if they are clandestine, irregular or bogus they are still masons just a different type of mason.


Your statement as you wrote it.

Originally posted by UGLE Constitution UGLE Constitution wrote:



....
8. The Grand Lodge is aware that there do exist Bodies, styling
themselves Freemasons, which do not adhere to these principles,
and while that attitude exists the Grand Lodge of England refuses
absolutely to have any relations with such Bodies,
or to regard them
as Freemasons.
   ...


Your GL states they are NOT Masons, but you say they are.   Therefore, your opinion conflicts with the Constitution to which you obligated yourself to uphold.

Unrecognized masons are clandestine.  They are not masons and should not be treated as such.   But I'm not saying they should be treated any different or given respect then you would a non-mason neighbor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 9:24am
Originally posted by Cookslc Cookslc wrote:

No, the first three degrees (the Symbolic Degrees) of the Swedish Rite are not York Rite. They are Swedish Rite, thus the name. It is a single rite of (essentially) 10 degrees. You will find a similar structure in the Rectified Scottish Rite, which is also Christian and in some countries works the Symbolic Degrees as well as the Haute Grades as the Swedish Rite does.   Note, both of these Christian Rites conferring the Symbolic Degrees were in existence before the GL of Maine. One might argue that the "De-Christianizing" of Masonry in England and the lack of Christianity in the junior GL of Maine were innovations in the Body of Freemasonry :)

Just a clarification: there are a number Christian Masonic orders in the US other than KT


Thanks for the additional info.    When i was doing a little research a couple of years ago on this Rite, I found it hard to determine where the degree were derived from (York Rites or Rite of Perfection, aka Scottish Rite)  Both rites has degrees which are similar in nature.   Because of the Christian nature of the Swedish Rite, I assumed the Rite had more influence from the York systems.   I didn't know about the Rectified Scottish Rite.     But I also realized that the Swedish Rite developed along side & at the same time as the York Rite & Rite of Perfection/Scottish Rite, each likely borrowing from the other.    Thus the Swedish Rite is an autonomous system unto itself.   I used 'York' in my above post as a general description for the nature of the Swedish Rite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 10:04am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

"...Because of the Christian nature of the Swedish Rite, I assumed the Rite had more influence from the York systems..."

The development of the Swedish Rite was undoubtedly influenced by various systems, but I believe that you are correct.

“’The Swedish Rite "is a mixture of the pure Rite of York, the high degrees of the French, the Templarism of the former Strict Observance, and the Rosicrucianism system.’ ‘The Swedes and Danes deny any derivation from the Strict Observance.’”


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 10:11am
A Good refference for the Swedish Rite:    http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/swedish_constitution.html

Also, checking I found the Rectified Scottish Rite developed some 20 years after the Swedish Rite.  The Rectified Scottish Rite derived from German influences with which may have been a heavily modified version of the Swedish Rite (???).


Edited by edwmax - February/15/2015 at 12:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 10:20am
I am unfamiliar with the inner workings of the Swedish Rite, but certainly the degree structure bars a resemblance to the Rectified, of which I am a member. It would be my suggestion they were both influenced by the Strict Observance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookslc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 10:22am
And, without disputing it, I am not clear what the "pure Rite of the York" would be.

Edited by Cookslc - February/15/2015 at 10:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Cookslc Cookslc wrote:

And, without disputing it, I am not clear what the "pure Rite of the York" would be.

Since the quote that includes the term "pure rite of York" comes from Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry , this may be what is meant:

"The York Rite was that Rite which was most probably organized or modified at the Revival in 1717, and practiced for fifty years by the Constitutional Grand Lodge of England. It consisted of only the three Symbolic Degrees, the last one, or the Master's, containing within itself the secrets now transferred to the Royal Arch. This Rite was carried in its purity to France in 1725, and into America at a later period. About the middle of the eighteenth century the Continental Freemasons, and about the end of it the Americans, began to superimpose upon it those high Degrees which, with the necessary mutilation of the Third, have given rise to numerous other Rites. But the Ancient York Rite though no longer cultivated, must remain on the records of history as the oldest and purest of all the Rites."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2015 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

..."The York and Scottish rites are completely separate appendant bodies..."

That is correct, however unless your Blue/Symbolic/Craft Lodge works in the Scottish Rite such as some Lodges in Louisiana, the degrees you received are York Rite.

"The first three degrees of Masonry, those earned in Masonic Lodges, are actually York Rite degrees. About two hundred years ago, to avoid confusion and infighting, the Scottish Rite in the US agreed to accept those first three York Rite Degrees in place of their own, hence, men start the Scottish Rite in their Fourth Degree."


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