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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Shots Fired!
    Posted: March/08/2016 at 11:52am
https://masonictao.com/2016/03/08/shots-fired/

Edited by coach - March/08/2016 at 11:53am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 2:28pm
Wow!  Let's hope it gets resolved quickly and amicably.  This could damage the Craft in the US for a long time....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 2:41pm
I say good for California!  More Grand lodges should do the same; if only to show that bigotry will not be tolerated within our organization.  That is not what we are about.  Live and let, live.  To each their own.  If you feel otherwise...  maybe you're in the wrong organization, or you have greatly misunderstood it's teachings.  No one has the right to tell another how to live their life simply because they don't like it, or don't agree with it.

Thanks for sharing Coach!


Edited by Adept? - March/08/2016 at 2:43pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 4:32pm
I would argue that if you have a problem with what GA and TN did, then maybe you should encourage your Grand Lodge to reconsider having the Holy Bible on the Altar, obligating candidates upon it, or speaking of it in the ritual.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

I say good for California!  More Grand lodges should do the same; if only to show that bigotry will not be tolerated within our organization.  That is not what we are about.  Live and let, live.  To each their own.  If you feel otherwise...  maybe you're in the wrong organization, or you have greatly misunderstood it's teachings.  No one has the right to tell another how to live their life simply because they don't like it, or don't agree with it.

Thanks for sharing Coach!

No one is trying to tell anyone how to live their life. Private organizations are allowed to establish rules on who can join the organization. By your logic, Masonry should allow females and atheists because who are we to exclude women and require belief in a God?


Edited by Hyksos - March/08/2016 at 4:34pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 7:53pm
You're right, private organizations do have the right to have membership requirements.  These Brothers met the requirements, and were members in good standing, but were dismissed from the order due to this new "rule" that it would seem was put in place just for the purpose of expelling these two Brothers, and then keeping any other homosexual men from joining.  These Brothers should have, at the very least, been grandfathered since they were members before the rule was made.  Any way you slice it... it's bigotry, it's discrimination, and those brothers have been wronged by their grand lodge, and the order itself.  It's bigotry and discrimination, plain and simple.  Women are allowed to join the Eastern star, and other female specific orders within the Masonic family, and as far as the atheists go... I don't see any of them knocking down the doors to join any faith based organizations.. do you?  The people being shut out are not women, and they are not atheists.  I think it is piss poor for any grand lodge to turn away an otherwise qualified, and possibly quality candidate, who could bring a lot to their lodge, and in turn to the order, merely because of their personal sexual preferences.  Quite frankly, throughout history, and in nature, homosexuality is present.  It's a natural thing, it occurs in nature, not just with humans, and it isn't going to go away because some people don't agree with it, don't like it, don't understand it, or are just outright afraid of it.  

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

I say good for California!  More Grand lodges should do the same; if only to show that bigotry will not be tolerated within our organization.  That is not what we are about.  Live and let, live.  To each their own.  If you feel otherwise...  maybe you're in the wrong organization, or you have greatly misunderstood it's teachings.  No one has the right to tell another how to live their life simply because they don't like it, or don't agree with it.

Thanks for sharing Coach!

The statement I highlighted bothers me a little bit. I'm not really comfortable having someone tell me if I feel a certain way then maybe I don't belong in this organization. I'm not saying how I feel about the issue one way or another. We have members who hold a wide variety of opinions on various hot-button issues and there should not be a litmus test for membership based on these opinions as your statement strongly implies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

You're right, private organizations do have the right to have membership requirements.  These Brothers met the requirements, and were members in good standing, but were dismissed from the order due to this new "rule" that it would seem was put in place just for the purpose of expelling these two Brothers, and then keeping any other homosexual men from joining.  These Brothers should have, at the very least, been grandfathered since they were members before the rule was made.  Any way you slice it... it's bigotry, it's discrimination, and those brothers have been wronged by their grand lodge, and the order itself.  It's bigotry and discrimination, plain and simple.  Women are allowed to join the Eastern star, and other female specific orders within the Masonic family, and as far as the atheists go... I don't see any of them knocking down the doors to join any faith based organizations.. do you?  The people being shut out are not women, and they are not atheists.  I think it is piss poor for any grand lodge to turn away an otherwise qualified, and possibly quality candidate, who could bring a lot to their lodge, and in turn to the order, merely because of their personal sexual preferences.  Quite frankly, throughout history, and in nature, homosexuality is present.  It's a natural thing, it occurs in nature, not just with humans, and it isn't going to go away because some people don't agree with it, don't like it, don't understand it, or are just outright afraid of it.  

 


My understanding is that the rules were always there. Violation of the moral law has always been unlawful in those jurisdictions. Now I could be wrong, but from my reading of the situation they didn't just go pass a new law with the intent of expelling members. The members knew the whole time what the rules were but decided that the Supreme Court gay marriage ruling trumped the rules of the private organization to which they belonged.

That said I think there is a bigger conversation to be had about the meaning of sovereignty. What good is sovereignty if you don't respect it unless other sovereign entities agree with you? IMO the GL of California is being the intolerant one here. It is throwing sovereignty out the window because it is not tolerant of the views of others. TN and GA did not pull recognition for California allowing homosexuals. California pulled recognition for them not allowing homosexuality. It's militant political correctness in an organization that claims to not be political.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2016 at 11:35pm
If you feel otherwise...  maybe you're in the wrong organization, or you have greatly misunderstood it's teachings.  Is what I wrote.  Maybe means exactly that... 

Freemasonry; at it's very core, is about tolerance, and acceptance.  It's purpose is to bring people together, not separate them.  I remember reading somewhere recently on this forum that the G.L. of GA. is also attempting to make their state/jurisdiction exclusively christian... should that also be allowed and accepted by all other G.L.'s with recognition and fraternal relations?  I think not!  It is precisely the opposite of what our beloved brotherhood is about, and completely contrary to its purpose and goals.  

As for the statement that TN. and GA. did not pull recognition from CA... of course they didn't.  If they did, they would have to suspend recognition with the majority of the country as well.  

Really, when you think about it for half a second, this entire issue is moot.  If a man desires to join the fraternity, and is also a homosexual... he could just lie about it(something he should never have to do)... assuming that it is even a question on the application in those states that forbid it.  Suppose it never comes up at all... how would you know the difference?  If you're against homosexuality, but you never have the knowledge that one of your brothers is a homosexual until after having developed a fraternal relationship with him, and you change your outlook on that brother based solely on that information... you're a bigot.  Period.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

If you feel otherwise...  maybe you're in the wrong organization, or you have greatly misunderstood it's teachings.  Is what I wrote.  Maybe means exactly that...

Let's start here .....your argument, or statement, if you prefer, comes across as pretty self-righteous.  "If you feel otherwise ..."? Sounds like you - and Hoddap and a few others, have set yourselves up as arbiters of what is and is not intended by our Obligations and Constitutions. Not a tenable position, Brother. Your opinions do not mean any more or any less than thousands of other men in Freemasonry. You are welcome to them and welcome to express them, but de"my brother"ting others for holding differing views is a bit untoward.

Originally posted by adept? adept? wrote:

Freemasonry; at it's very core, is about tolerance, and acceptance.  It's purpose is to bring people together, not separate them.  I remember reading somewhere recently on this forum that the G.L. of GA. is also attempting to make their state/jurisdiction exclusively christian... should that also be allowed and accepted by all other G.L.'s with recognition and fraternal relations?  I think not!  It is precisely the opposite of what our beloved brotherhood is about, and completely contrary to its purpose and goals.  

I had this conversation elsewhere, but it has yet to be effectively rebutted: Freemasonry is NOT about bringing people together indiscriminately -- in fact, it is all about discriminating on the grounds stated in your Obligation and Lessons. There is a reason we are supposed to guard the Gates, and the tyler's sword is a symbol of the seriousness with which we are supposed to approach that duty. "Tolerance" and "acceptance" are nice buzzwords, but there is little general agreement on their meaning. An example: I can tolerate my neighbor's drug use without accepting it, or him, into my home; I can accept that people approach living and loving in different ways without tolerating deviance from those standards which my community has set as our guideline. In short, Freemasonry is more about exclusion than about inclusion .... which is one of the reasons it has survived so many years of social change as an intact institution.

Originally posted by adept? adept? wrote:

As for the statement that TN. and GA. did not pull recognition from CA... of course they didn't.  If they did, they would have to suspend recognition with the majority of the country as well.  

Opinions differ.... the majority of the country will not, IMHO, line up for an internal civil war. PHA didn't impact us this way (although there was a period of unpleasantness), and this issue won't either.

Originally posted by adept? adept? wrote:

Really, when you think about it for half a second, this entire issue is moot.  If a man desires to join the fraternity, and is also a homosexual... he could just lie about it(something he should never have to do)... assuming that it is even a question on the application in those states that forbid it.  Suppose it never comes up at all... how would you know the difference?  If you're against homosexuality, but you never have the knowledge that one of your brothers is a homosexual until after having developed a fraternal relationship with him, and you change your outlook on that brother based solely on that information... you're a bigot.  Period.

Are you sure you need to be so general in condemning Brothers as "bigots" because they don't agree with your point of view? Such accusations are often more reflective of the character of the accuser than of the accused. More: are you suggesting that someone should lie on their application? If so, that is certainly enough reason to reject them without any other issue being raised; I did understand the drift of your argument, but that supporting idea is not constructive. As to the second point: if I discover that a man who, although perfectly charming and cheerful in other ways, is discovered to be an atheist -- am I not allowed to change my opinion of that person? So to with homosexuality, which some perceive as deviant and immoral. You cannot seriously be suggesting that morality is relative? If so, then what is the point of building our work on the moral foundations of this craft?


Interesting situation, though .... I wonder how it will all work out?

Edited to properly display quotes.  Not a word altered.  :-)


Edited by Adept? - March/09/2016 at 8:18pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 5:45pm
People throw the word bigot around pretty frequently these days. The irony is that the definition of bigotry is "intolerance toward those who hold a different view than you." By labeling people who disagree with you as "bigots" you are being a bigot by the very definition of the word.

As for the exclusively Christian argument, I assume you are not familiar with Scandinavian countries and the "Swedish Rite" of Freemasonry that they practice? In those nations you must be a Christian to be a Mason. Nobody is cutting ties with them over it. The only reason people are cutting ties with GA and TN is because there is a militant political correctness movement that desires to stamp out anything that runs counter to the beliefs of the PC crowd. It is this militant mentality that everyone must agree with you that is the true problem. Sovereignty means nothing if it is not respected.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

People throw the word bigot around pretty frequently these days. The irony is that the definition of bigotry is "intolerance toward those who hold a different view than you." By labeling people who disagree with you as "bigots" you are being a bigot by the very definition of the word.

As for the exclusively Christian argument, I assume you are not familiar with Scandinavian countries and the "Swedish Rite" of Freemasonry that they practice? In those nations you must be a Christian to be a Mason. Nobody is cutting ties with them over it. The only reason people are cutting ties with GA and TN is because there is a militant political correctness movement that desires to stamp out anything that runs counter to the beliefs of the PC crowd. It is this militant mentality that everyone must agree with you that is the true problem. Sovereignty means nothing if it is not respected.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 6:59pm
The Grand Lodges of CA, GA (USA), TN, DC and (insert any name) have each exercised their sovereignty.  I fully support each of these grand lodges in taking sovereign action as is their right.  Currently these grand lodges are at odds with one another over an issue.  This is of no surprise to me as people are at odds with one another over various issues.

Part of the Masonic ritual I went through as an Entered Apprentice told me it is the internal not the external.  What this boils down to is different understandings of this concept.  What we need to keep in mind is WE the Master Masons are the grand lodge.  True we might not each get a vote at grand lodge sessions but we still have a voice.  We as gentlemen and brothers can and should work together peacefully and at times agree to disagree.  If the matter is so momentous that common ground cannot be reached then maybe suspending fraternal relations is the correct answer.  Or maybe the answer is some concept totally different.

Wisdom, strength, and beauty I hope the GAOTU guides each and every mason to a peaceful resolution.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 8:03pm
Well... where to begin.  
Originally posted by hyskos hyskos wrote:

  By labeling people who disagree with you as "bigots" you are being a bigot by the very definition of the word.
 
You are absolutely correct my Brother, and I am wrong for that, and I apologize. 

Originally posted by markmaster markmaster wrote:

 Such accusations are often more reflective of the character of the accuser than of the accused.

again, correct.  I am as bias as they come when it comes to religions and their dogma and propaganda.  I am against any, and all organized religions.  Having said that, I understand them for what they are... a necessary tool.  Unfortunate as that is.  I'll leave it at that, because anything further would most likely be inflammatory to some, and I don't wish to continue that... It seems I've done enough of it already.

Originally posted by markmaster markmaster wrote:

 So to with homosexuality, which some perceive as deviant and immoral. You cannot seriously be suggesting that morality is relative? 

Indeed, it is subjective to be sure.  As you yourself stated above.  

Lets call this issue what it really is.  It is Brothers in certain areas attempting to, and in some cases succeeding in, imposing their particular individual religious views, and beliefs, and version of morality on others, and on the organization in their respective jurisdictions.  Which I believe is detrimental to the organization, and society as a whole.

Originally posted by markmaster markmaster wrote:

 If so, then what is the point of building our work on the moral foundations of this craft?

What are the "moral foundations" of the our "craft", and where do they come from?  Again, subjective.

Originally posted by hyskos hyskos wrote:

 I assume you are not familiar with Scandinavian countries and the "Swedish Rite" of Freemasonry that they practice?

 Actually, I am familiar.  There was a discussion in another thread about it a while back.  I don't agree with it.. but it is what it is.  I feel it is very unfortunate for those jurisdictions to exclude otherwise potentially great candidates based on their religious preference, or lack there of.

 
Originally posted by markmaster markmaster wrote:

More: are you suggesting that someone should lie on their application? If so, that is certainly enough reason to reject them without any other issue being raised; I did understand the drift of your argument, but that supporting idea is not constructive.

certainly not!  I'm merely stating that should a homosexual man desire to become a candidate in a jurisdiction that prohibits homosexuals from joining, that the individual could lie when/if asked, if only to avoid being discriminated against as such.  Something that they have (unfortunately, but most likely) become accustom to.


I apologize if I have offended anyone with any of my statements here, or above.  It was not my intention to cause any disharmony.  These are my opinions and beliefs only.  To each their own.


Edited by Adept? - March/09/2016 at 8:15pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The Grand Lodges of CA, GA (USA), TN, DC and (insert any name) have each exercised their sovereignty.  I fully support each of these grand lodges in taking sovereign action as is their right.  Currently these grand lodges are at odds with one another over an issue.  This is of no surprise to me as people are at odds with one another over various issues.

Part of the Masonic ritual I went through as an Entered Apprentice told me it is the internal not the external.  What this boils down to is different understandings of this concept.  What we need to keep in mind is WE the Master Masons are the grand lodge.  True we might not each get a vote at grand lodge sessions but we still have a voice.  We as gentlemen and brothers can and should work together peacefully and at times agree to disagree.  If the matter is so momentous that common ground cannot be reached then maybe suspending fraternal relations is the correct answer.  Or maybe the answer is some concept totally different.

Wisdom, strength, and beauty I hope the GAOTU guides each and every mason to a peaceful resolution.

Well put.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2016 at 8:35pm
What bothers me about the LGBT controversy in this country, and in Canada too, is that there is a demand, an insistence, that all people subscribe to all of the views of even the most extreme elements of that movement. There is no wiggle room, subscribe to our views, 100%- or else... The term "homophobe" was invented, and this term is loosely bandied about and applied to anyone who might disagree even to the slightest extent with someone who holds a more liberal view. It reminds me of people in the 1950's who were called Communists if they even held a slightly liberal view. I remember that. Yet, nowadays, people who don't subscribe to the politically correct view are demonized, even destroyed in some cases. 

Masonry should be above that. A Mason's good standing should not be called into question, nor should his interpretation of Masonic teachings be called into question if he sincerely holds views he believes to be moral and ethical. Some ritual states that our purpose is, in so many words, to unite men of every country, sect and opinion. That includes opinions that may not be popular in the mainstream.

Why the Grand Lodges of Georgia and Tennessee chose their actions, I don't know. In my experience, there is usually more going on than what we know. Perhaps they overreacted, but perhaps California overreacted too. This issue is a perfect example of why we teach subduing one's passions. 




Edited by droche - March/09/2016 at 8:41pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 4:07am
I believe it is very telling that those Grand Lodges and/or Masons who are up in arms over the actions of TN and GA seem to have no problem whatsoever with other forms of discrimination so long as they agree with it. There is a very small and very loud percentage of the population that is vehemently pro homosexual. Enough so that they go to great lengths to ruin the careers of people who even speak out on the topic. They seem to have been able to hijack some portions of masonry as well.

If other Grand Lodges want to allow homosexuals then that is their right. As far as I know my Grand Lodge has no such rule against homosexuals. However I find it very telling that GA and TN have maintained recognition. For example, theoretically, they have maintained ties with the GL of CA knowing full well that a visiting brother from there could be homosexual and not subject to the disciplinary laws. This person would still be able to visit the lodges and be fully recognized as a regular master Mason provided of course that a member of a lodge did not object to the visitor's presence. This is a great example of a respect of sovereignty by respecting another GL's rules that you may not agree with, and not placing a blanket punishment on the members of that GL by de-recognizing every single Mason from that state.

On the other hand, California has decided to exclude every single master Mason from Georgia regardless of whether or not they actually believe in the rule against homosexuals. They are punishing the entire state membership because they don't agree with one of the rules of that GL.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

... They are punishing the entire state membership because they don't agree with one of the rules of that GL.


How is this "punishment"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 6:36am
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

... The only reason people are cutting ties with GA and TN is because there is a militant political correctness movement that desires to stamp out anything that runs counter to the beliefs of the PC crowd. ...


There exist "other" reasons, the law of the land first and foremost, of which I believe we are to adhere to based upon what I recall from Ritual.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 10:20am
My apologies, Brothers, for sounding off in such an arrogant and belligerent manner earlier. I would offer a defense, but there really is none. We each have differing opinions and positions on issues .... and that in itself is, perhaps, Masonry: many different building blocks fitted together, rubbing off a rough edge here, chipping a linking edge there .....
"Si apis, sis apis."


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 11:57am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

... They are punishing the entire state membership because they don't agree with one of the rules of that GL.


How is this "punishment"?


It is punishment by excluding every single person who is solely a member of the Grand Lodge of Georgia from visiting any California or DC lodge, regardless of their personal beliefs on this issue.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

... The only reason people are cutting ties with GA and TN is because there is a militant political correctness movement that desires to stamp out anything that runs counter to the beliefs of the PC crowd. ...


There exist "other" reasons, the law of the land first and foremost, of which I believe we are to adhere to based upon what I recall from Ritual.


The law of the land says gay marriage is legal. It doesn't say that all private organizations must accept homosexuality. Isn't a common adage that masonry is not a religion, but it is religious in nature? The law of the land (US Constitution) protects the religious rights of people to practice their faith. It also provides that private organizations based on sincerely held religious beliefs cannot be forced by government to violate those beliefs. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that an organization that requires the Bible on the altar, and the manner in which our candidates become Masons (will not be discussed for obvious reasons), somehow excludes us from the protection of religious liberty.

There is no tension between complying with US law and holding sincere religious beliefs that homosexuality is immoral. Quite frankly I don't care either way. If a Grand Lodge wants to ban it, I understand. If they don't want to ban it, that's fine too. That is what sovereignty is all about!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 12:34pm
Except we have brethren of ALL religions in our fraternity, and some of those religions do not view homosexuality in and of itself as immoral.

Oh, and for the record California and the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium have suspended recognition.  DC has only suspended Fraternal Relations...which means no official delegations, but individual brothers from GA or TN who don't have 'Grand' in their titles are still free to visit our Lodges....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

... They are punishing the entire state membership because they don't agree with one of the rules of that GL.


How is this "punishment"?


It is punishment by excluding every single person who is solely a member of the Grand Lodge of Georgia from visiting any California or DC lodge, regardless of their personal beliefs on this issue.


That is only a dramatic opinion.

CA allowed the TN and GA membership to suffer the natural consequence for supporting their GL actions. If they don't like the consequence, they know how to fix it so the consequence goes away.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

... The only reason people are cutting ties with GA and TN is because there is a militant political correctness movement that desires to stamp out anything that runs counter to the beliefs of the PC crowd. ...


There exist "other" reasons, the law of the land first and foremost, of which I believe we are to adhere to based upon what I recall from Ritual.


The law of the land says gay marriage is legal.


No. The law of the land says that marriage is legal and that it is unconstitutional to ban anyone from being regulated by the state, based upon sexual preference.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

It doesn't say that all private organizations must accept homosexuality.


Yes. But members of said organizations may still have to tolerate them even if they don't accept them.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

Isn't a common adage that masonry is not a religion, but it is religious in nature?


Yup. And being so, it cannot afford any one person or groups of persons to make it their religious bastion at the expense of other members.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

The law of the land (US Constitution) protects the religious rights of people to practice their faith.


Yup. Just as long as they do so within their own religion based organization.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

It also provides that private organizations based on sincerely held religious beliefs cannot be forced by government to violate those beliefs.


Yes. It can however force them not to violate the laws of the land in their practice.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

I think you would be hard pressed to argue that an organization that requires the Bible on the altar, and the manner in which our candidates become Masons (will not be discussed for obvious reasons), somehow excludes us from the protection of religious liberty.


Red hearing. We have within our ceremonies something like this:

"In the State you are to be a quiet and peaceable citizen, true to your government and just to your country. You are not to countenance disloyalty and rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live."

Our country allows for it. We are to conform to it.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

There is no tension between complying with US law and holding sincere religious beliefs that homosexuality is immoral.


Yes. But the moment you start discriminating within an "non-religion based" organization, regardless of how religious it may claim to be, based upon your religious beliefs, you're going to get push-back.

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:

Quite frankly I don't care either way. If a Grand Lodge wants to ban it, I understand. If they don't want to ban it, that's fine too. That is what sovereignty is all about!


Yup! And likewise, if another GL wants to suspend recognition. They are free to do just that too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 

No. The law of the land says that marriage is legal and that it is unconstitutional to ban anyone from being regulated by the state, based upon sexual preference.


This is completely untrue. No federal law currently protects sexual orientation from discrimination. The EEOC, less than a year ago for the first time ever, declared sexual orientation to be protected. This is not in the statute and is presently being tested in the Courts. It is nothing but an agency statement from a radical left-wing government at this point.

http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/otherprotections.cfm ("The Commission has also held that discrimination against an individual because of that person's sexual orientation is discrimination because of sex and therefore prohibited under Title VII. See David Baldwin v. Dep't of Transportation, EEOC Appeal No. 120133080 (July 15, 2015), http://www.eeoc.gov/decisions/0120133080.pdf.").

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-files-first-suits-against-businesses-alleging-sexual-orientation-discrimination 

Quote Previously, federal courts, for the most part, held that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination based upon race, color, national origin, religion and sex, does not provide a basis for challenging discrimination based upon sexual orientation.

In 2012, in a case involving a federal employee, the EEOC hinted at its evolving position, holding that discrimination based upon gender identity, in other words transgender status, is an unlawful form of sex discrimination under Title VII.

Consistent with its comprehensive enforcement agenda, in the summer of 2015, the agency went further, still in the context of federal employment, and took the position that discrimination based on sexual orientation constitutes an unlawful form of sex discrimination under Title VII, determining that sexual orientation discrimination is, by its very nature, discrimination because of sex.

Now, on March 1, 2016, the EEOC, for the first time, filed suit against private-sector employers alleging that discrimination based on sexual orientation violated Title VII.

I'd also add that any private organization can exclude anyone for any reason. The KKK can exclude people based on race and the Black Panthers can exclude anyone based on race as well. There does not need to be a religious aspect. The only time you can't discriminate is when you are involved in business because it affects interstate commerce and therefore the commerce clause grants congress the power to regulate it. The notion that it is illegal to discriminate against homosexuals in private organizations is absurd. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 

No. The law of the land says that marriage is legal and that it is unconstitutional to ban anyone from being regulated by the state, based upon sexual preference.



This is completely untrue. No federal law currently protects sexual orientation from discrimination. The EEOC, less than a year ago for the first time ever, declared sexual orientation to be protected. This is not in the statute and is presently being tested in the Courts. It is nothing but an agency statement from a radical left-wing government at this point.


I don't know what you think that I wrote, but let me try to write it different:

The Supreme Court said it was unconstitutional to discriminate based upon sexual orientation in matters of obtaining marriage licenses. Marriage is legal and you can't ban people from getting marriage based upon sexual orientation.

Marriage is legal. This is the law of the land. Banning people from it, based on the aforementioned reasons is unconstitutional.

This is different from "Gay Marriage is legal". Marriage is marriage.

Is that clearer?

Edited by coach - March/10/2016 at 4:37pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 

No. The law of the land says that marriage is legal and that it is unconstitutional to ban anyone from being regulated by the state, based upon sexual preference.



This is completely untrue. No federal law currently protects sexual orientation from discrimination. The EEOC, less than a year ago for the first time ever, declared sexual orientation to be protected. This is not in the statute and is presently being tested in the Courts. It is nothing but an agency statement from a radical left-wing government at this point.


I don't know what you think that I wrote, but let me try to write it different:

The Supreme Court said it was unconstitutional to discriminate based upon sexual orientation in matters of obtaining marriage licenses. Marriage is legal and you can't ban people from getting marriage based upon sexual orientation.

Marriage is legal. This is the law of the land. Banning people from it, based on the aforementioned reasons is unconstitutional.

This is different from "Gay Marriage is legal". Marriage is marriage.

Is that clearer?

We can splice words all day, but marriage is one man and one woman. If the SCOTUS suddenly announced tomorrow that potatoes were considered livestock from a legal standpoint, it wouldn't mean the definition of the word livestock changed just because they said so. The word gay is necessary in front of marriage because it is a modifier. Unless you want to throw 2000 years of linguistic history out the window, marriage is between a man and a woman. Now, obviously, I don't disagree that the SCOTUS held that gay marriage is protected under the equal protection clause, but that really has nothing to do with a private fraternity that quite blatantly has reverence for the Holy Bible in its lodge room.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Hyksos Hyksos wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 

No. The law of the land says that marriage is legal and that it is unconstitutional to ban anyone from being regulated by the state, based upon sexual preference.



This is completely untrue. No federal law currently protects sexual orientation from discrimination. The EEOC, less than a year ago for the first time ever, declared sexual orientation to be protected. This is not in the statute and is presently being tested in the Courts. It is nothing but an agency statement from a radical left-wing government at this point.


I don't know what you think that I wrote, but let me try to write it different:

The Supreme Court said it was unconstitutional to discriminate based upon sexual orientation in matters of obtaining marriage licenses. Marriage is legal and you can't ban people from getting marriage based upon sexual orientation.

Marriage is legal. This is the law of the land. Banning people from it, based on the aforementioned reasons is unconstitutional.

This is different from "Gay Marriage is legal". Marriage is marriage.

Is that clearer?


We can splice words all day, but marriage is one man and one woman. If the SCOTUS suddenly announced tomorrow that potatoes were considered livestock from a legal standpoint, it wouldn't mean the definition of the word livestock changed just because they said so. The word gay is necessary in front of marriage because it is a modifier. Unless you want to throw 2000 years of linguistic history out the window, marriage is between a man and a woman. Now, obviously, I don't disagree that the SCOTUS held that gay marriage is protected under the equal protection clause, but that really has nothing to do with a private fraternity that quite blatantly has reverence for the Holy Bible in its lodge room.


No. We cannot splice words all day. That is a waste of time and serves no good purpose.

Your definition is a personal as to what constitutes a marriage and is one that is not held by all. I shan't throw anything out the window. I shall speak my truth. If you don't agree with it, that is your right, as is how others understand what is actually being communicated by that holy book.

Edited by coach - March/10/2016 at 7:48pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2016 at 9:06pm
Idk how we got from homosexuals in Freemasonry to marriage, but what the hell, we're down the rabbit hole now.. might as well look around a bit.  

Originally posted by hyskos hyskos wrote:

 We can splice words all day, but marriage is one man and one woman.
 

Opinion only, not a fact, and an opinion based on an archaic allegorical story written by man, not god.  (That's an entirely different rabbit hole...jump on down it... if you believe your faith is strong enough.)  Let me just simply state that it is possible to believe in a force, power, or being, that is the creator of the universe, and all that it contains without subscribing to the dogma of religion.  That is a FACT.  That we would all be better off for it.. is merely my opinion.

Originally posted by hyskos hyskos wrote:

 The word gay is necessary in front of marriage because it is a modifier.

This is a modifier only used, and made necessary because of the anti-gay community.  If Chad, and Thomas decide to get married, I can assure you that their wedding invitations will not say "you are invited to our gay-wedding"  It will just say "please attend our wedding" or something to that effect.  
Just like if you were planning to attend, and were telling someone else about it, you would not say "i'm going to a gay wedding" (or at least I hope you would not) you would just say "I have a wedding to go to."  

I'll apologize now just in case any of my comments or statements herein are inflammatory, or offensive to some.  I seem to have a knack for that...    


Edited by Adept? - March/12/2016 at 3:58pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/11/2016 at 9:21am

https://masonictao.com/2016/03/11/the-pot-calling-the-kettle-black-part-1/

Interesting article on current issues. There are two other parts to come.

"Si apis, sis apis."


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/11/2016 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by MarkMaster MarkMaster wrote:

https://masonictao.com/2016/03/11/the-pot-calling-the-kettle-black-part-1/

Interesting article on current issues. There are two other parts to come.



This was a great read and a much needed one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2016 at 11:09am
Brothers,
 
I appreciate how passionate some Brothers are about their faith. However, there are some facts about broader and historical Freemasonry that must be considered. I’ve tried to organize this a way that, if you get so fuming mad that you can’t read the whole thing, you can simply skim the bold points. A couple of disclosures before I start: (1) I am Christian and (2) I am a gay Mason.
  1. Freemasonry is nonsectarian (as prescribed by the non-descript Volume of the Sacred Law). Do you agree with this? Do you know what it means? The Bible cannot be the only boundary for what a Lodge considers “moral” conduct. I am not challenging any Brother’s particular faith or governance of himself – that is purely and unquestionably his own business. However, if we abide the Landmarks and shed our sectarian divisions when we cross the Tiler’s threshold, what do we consider to be the boundary of our moral circumscription?
  2. Homosexual culture is not the drug- and sex-crazed cacophony that insulated people think it is. While some of that does exist (as it also does in heterosexual culture), a large portion of gay men (and Brothers!) live in monogamous and happy relationships, do not use illegal drugs, and are not prowling outside elementary schools and shopping malls for children. Reading into the way that most people respond to homosexuality, they simply do not know what goes on in homosexual culture and are thereby afraid of it. A gay man could be an equally moral and upstanding citizen and Brother as any heterosexual man. If you disagree with this point, how would you deconstruct my argument within the framework of non-sectarian Freemasonry?
  3. Freemasonry must be a function of society. As society changes, so changes Freemasonry. I doubt that anyone would argue this concept. We have seen these changes in last 300 years as slavery was abolished and Prince Hall Lodges were developed, as almost all Grand Lodges have now recognized the Prince Hall jurisdictions that are interwoven within their own. Likewise, it must change itself to be compatible with the society of tomorrow and beyond if it is to survive. Most would draw lines on what should change in Masonry (e.g., the current situation), and rightly so. I would argue that the moral boundary must be a carefully crafted and maintained amalgamation of regional culture, civil law, and religious law. So, if we have a nonsectarian moral code that embraces all of the desirable elements of contemporary society, what logic can we apply to block these men? What do you think of the guidelines for a moral code I outlined? Do you agree? If not, why?
  4. What about all of the existing important and honorable men and Masons that would be disowned on account of this? What about that young Brother that joined last year and hasn’t been back since this conversation flared up? What about that Past Master that never got married? What about our Illustrious Brother J. Edgar Hoover? What happens to them? This argument is not target practice – there are real people and real lives affected by this. These men and Brothers have faces, and names, and families, and self-esteem; when we spew this vitriol, this is intentional and willful friendly fire and FRATRICIDE.
  5. Should we change the Landmarks of Freemasonry? Maybe some of our Brothers will have aneurysms as their eyes cross that question. Before I get into my commentary, I will my answer for now is no. However, we should never be opposed to having the discussion of where our Landmarks come from, what they mean, and whether they are still relevant today. Maybe this Landmark is outdated. Maybe we change it or remove it altogether. Maybe we need to redefine what it means to us. What do you think?
With all of this in mind, I will say this. Whether any particular brother agrees with it or not, the truth is: We will change our stance on homosexuality, or we will cease to be relevant in the future. That is not a reflection of my opinion on the matter; it is simple fact. We will be perceived as backward and bigoted, and men of the future will lose interest. Period. If you do not agree, simply imagine what would have happened if we had chosen to stand up in support of slavery (these are certainly not the same issue; I only pick race relations as the quintessential divisive issue). Even today, the young men joining our lodges are actively interested in the dynamics of social equity. Are you willing to accept that this Fraternity will die on the backs of men that misunderstand the most basic tenets of our Institution?

Edited by c.m.ellis - March/12/2016 at 11:11am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2016 at 3:57pm
Likes this  ^
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2016 at 8:24pm
Bro. Ellis,

I have only been acquainted with two Masons I knew to be gay. Both were respectable men from what I could see and made significant contributions to Masonry. Another gay man who is a close friend is one I would have no problem recommending as a Mason, were he to ask. He is a professional, very unassuming and a compassionate individual, among other desirable traits.

On the other hand, I witnessed a gay pride parade and one of the things I remember that stuck out at me was a young man on a float wearing nothing but leather briefs and a chain around his neck dancing suggestively on the float. There were also cross-dressers dressed in gawdy outfits, flamboyant hairstyles and make-up. I could not in good conscience recommend men like these to be Masons. However, in the current atmosphere, were I to tell a man like the latter I described that I would not recommend him to be a Mason, I risk being labeled as a "homophobe" and that is not right.

So, you have somewhat an idea of what I consider to be the boundary of our moral conscription. What is yours?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2016 at 1:44pm

Office of the Grand Master

                                   David A. Walker

 

Grand Lodge of Maine, A.F.&A.M.

1007 Main Road / PO Box 430, Holden, ME 04429-0430

Tel: (207) 843-1086  /  Fax: (207) 843-1088

www.MaineMason.org


Brethren,

 

Many of you certainly have heard about the recent events involving the Grand Lodges of Georgia and Tennessee. For the benefit of those who have not, in short, they have decided to exclude men from being masons in their jurisdictions based on their sexual orientation. As a result, some Grand Jurisdictions have taken the action of withdrawing recognition of Georgia and Tennessee.

I believe that discrimination runs contrary to our beliefs as Masons, that Masons unite men of every country sect and opinion. I have recently read the opinion of the Grand Master of Washington, D.C., an ordained minister, who feels as I do that this action, imposes one set of religious values on the entire Craft. Masonry has always been a place where a man’s faith does not matter, so long as he believes in one ‘Supreme Architect of the Universe’. We need to remain an inclusive society and not an exclusive one.

Brethren this is my position on this subject. I am not, at this time going to unilaterally issue a judgement that the Grand Lodge of Maine remove recognition. We have a Grand Lodge session coming up in a few weeks, where the Committee on Fraternal Relations will offer a report which will cover this topic, along with their recommendation. We will have the opportunity to discuss this issue at that time and then vote as a body.

In the meantime, I pray that we remain the society of tolerant men that we have always espoused to be and that the actions of these two Grand Lodges do not set up a rift that threatens all that we have professed for generations.

 

Your Friend and Brother,

Dave

David A. Walker

Grand Master

Grand Lodge of Maine, A.F. & A.M.



Edited by Adept? - March/14/2016 at 1:45pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/17/2016 at 9:27am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/17/2016 at 11:23am
LMAO! ROTFL

That's pretty good Coach!  Very creative, well done!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/18/2016 at 1:23pm
I wonder how our Black Brethren that have been flat out told to join PHA feel about this.

I guess CA, DC and Belgium never had an issue with that since racism isn't actually legislated in Georgia's constitution.

I know I'm being a snarky with this reply. It is however intended to get the reader to recognize discrimination is discrimination no matter which way you slice it.




Edited by BroScubaSteve - March/18/2016 at 1:50pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/18/2016 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

I wonder how our Black Brethren that have been flat out told to join PHA feel about this.

I guess CA, DC and Belgium never had an issue with that since racism isn't actually legislated in Georgia's constitution.

I know I'm being a snarky with this reply. It is however intended to get the reader to recognize discrimination is discrimination no matter which way you slice it.



Absolutely!  You hit the nail on the head Brother!  I have never been present in any situation when a potential candidate has been turned away, or told to seek elsewhere (PHA) based on race.  Unfortunately I am aware, (from posts on here, stories I've heard, and just from paying attention to the sad state of our nation) that race is still a major issue for some, and that things like that, (and worse) do happen.  I recall one such incident in a post on this forum (If I recall correctly) that a visiting Brother, not a candidate, was asked to leave the lodge because a member of the lodge that he was visiting objected to his presents there solely because of the color of his skin.  How sad is that?!?!  I don't recall the state but I do recall that it was in the south.  Not to imply that race issues do not exist in other areas of the nation, but these discrimination issues, whether based on race or not, seem to originate in, or at the very least be more prevalent in; the southern states.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/18/2016 at 2:47pm
http://forum.mastermason.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12271

found the incident I referenced in the above post.  It took place in Georgia....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/18/2016 at 3:19pm
That was me.  It took place in the CSRA area of Georgia, near Augusta.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2016 at 4:29pm
Shots were fired all right. Point: I am not a Mason. Point: I am dead set against homosexual marriage for any reason whatsoever.

Bigotry? Against what??? Homosexuality is not a race, religion, ethnicity, nor is it the third sex. Homosexuality is a mental health disorder, emotionally damaged behavior. You cannot be bigoted against mental illness,and that is all homosexuality is, a mental illness - 'intrinsically disordered' behavior.

If I were a loyal Freemason in good standing, this ruling would give me cause for concern about the efficacy of the Craft. I am a lapse Roman Catholic and I am thisclose to renouncing Catholicism wholesale. Now I must consider Freemasonry.

By condoning absurd homosexual marriage Freemasonry is leaving itself wide open to further criticism, further schisms, and marginalizing itself from non-Masonic admirers.

At this moment in time I'm afraid I'm glad not to be a Mason, because I couldn't stand for any Lodge supporting homosexuality or homosexual marriage.

I'm being factual because Masons deserve the truth.

Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2016 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Shots were fired all right. Point: I am not a Mason.


I am truly relieved to read this.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Point: I am dead set against homosexual marriage for any reason whatsoever.


Then don't marry someone who is your gender.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Bigotry?


Yes

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Against what???


If you don't know, no explanation will suffice.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Homosexuality is not a race, religion, ethnicity, nor is it the third sex.


Correct

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Homosexuality is a mental health disorder, emotionally damaged behavior.


It was once classified this way. Research has shown this to be incorrect.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

You cannot be bigoted against mental illness,and that is all homosexuality is, a mental illness - 'intrinsically disordered' behavior.


You appear to be convinced about this. You also appear to have a lot of energy bound up in this. Interesting.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

If I were a loyal Freemason in good standing, this ruling would give me cause for concern about the efficacy of the Craft.


If you were to be what you would claim, and your Brothers trained you well in Craft tenets and principles, you would not be posting what you have posted.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am a lapse Roman Catholic and I am thisclose to renouncing Catholicism wholesale.


What can I do to push you over the edge?

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Now I must consider Freemasonry.


And you're not even a member. Interesting!

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

By condoning absurd homosexual marriage Freemasonry is leaving itself wide open to further criticism, further schisms, and marginalizing itself from non-Masonic admirers.


You could do with some further education. Freemasonry is condoning nothing. Certain officers in different jurisdictions are.

But, rest assured. They are not condoning anything absurd.

As far as opening itself up to further criticism and further schisms, welcome to our world!

BTW - I don't believe members truly care about non-masonic admirers. It's not our focus.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

At this moment in time I'm afraid I'm glad not to be a Mason, ...


You are afraid; I'm ecstatic!

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...because I couldn't stand for any Lodge supporting homosexuality or homosexual marriage.


And if you were to find such a lodge who had your views, I'm certain that you would fit in well.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I'm being factual because Masons deserve the truth.



You have a strange idea as to what is factual and what we deserve.

Edited by coach - March/23/2016 at 6:04pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2016 at 9:12pm
VERY well said as usual Bro. Coach!  I must say though.. when I read the following... 


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am a lapse Roman Catholic and I am thisclose to renouncing Catholicism wholesale.


What can I do to push you over the edge?.

... I quite literally laughed out loud, and almost fell out of my chair!  ClapLOLThumbs UpROTFL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2016 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Shots were fired all right. Point: I am not a Mason.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I am truly relieved to read this.


Much to your loss.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Point: I am dead set against homosexual marriage for any reason whatsoever.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Then don't marry someone who is your gender.


Which would still not validate homosexual marriage.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Bigotry?


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Yes


No.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Against what???


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you don't know, no explanation will suffice.


But I do know, which is why I am telling you the truth.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Homosexuality is not a race, religion, ethnicity, nor is it the third sex.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Correct


You agree, but you don't understand. You hear, but you do not listen. You look, but you do not see. - Holy Book of Law

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Homosexuality is a mental health disorder, emotionally damaged behavior.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

It was once classified this way. Research has shown this to be incorrect.


Not entirely true. Politically correct definitions of homosexuality are being reconsidered, especially in light of the D.S.M. V being rejected by the psychiatric community. And ex-homosexuals speaking out against the homosexual life style.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

You cannot be bigoted against mental illness,and that is all homosexuality is, a mental illness - 'intrinsically disordered' behavior.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You appear to be convinced about this. You also appear to have a lot of energy bound up in this. Interesting.


Of course, the homosexual infiltration of my Church has clearly demonstrated what happens to any organization that tolerates homosexuality in its midsts - and what the homosexuals did to the Catholic Church will happen to Freemasonry if the Craft doesn't stop it. The Catholic church is currently enjoying billion dollar lawsuits and hundreds of thousands of sexually abused children at the hands of homosexuals because the Catholic church did not enforce its catechism banning homosexuals from being ordained, and the warnings against homosexuality as clearly defined in the Catholic Bible -- as well as in the Holy Book of Law. Abomination?

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

If I were a loyal Freemason in good standing, this ruling would give me cause for concern about the efficacy of the Craft.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you were to be what you would claim, and your Brothers trained you well in Craft tenets and principles, you would not be posting what you have posted.


Coach - that smacks of indoctrination, brain washing, and mind control.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am a lapse Roman Catholic and I am thisclose to renouncing Catholicism wholesale.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

What can I do to push you over the edge?


You and Freemasonry could publically renounce homosexual marriage?😁

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Now I must consider Freemasonry.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

And you're not even a member. Interesting!


No, I am an objective follower of the Craft.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

By condoning absurd homosexual marriage Freemasonry is leaving itself wide open to further criticism, further schisms, and marginalizing itself from non-Masonic admirers.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You could do with some further education. Freemasonry is condoning nothing. Certain officers in different jurisdictions are.


Yes I can do with a whole lot more education - and as a Freemason so can you!!

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

But, rest assured. They are not condoning anything absurd.


Then they are in denial.

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

As far as opening itself up to further criticism and further schisms, welcome to our world!


Then why purposely widen the gulf and alienate potential qualified members?

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

BTW - I don't believe members truly care about non-masonic admirers. It's not our focus.


And that's to the deficit of Freemasonry!

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

At this moment in time I'm afraid I'm glad not to be a Mason, ...


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You are afraid; I'm ecstatic![/coach]

Again, not a healthy attitude for any fraternity member to have - lacks charity.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...because I couldn't stand for any Lodge supporting homosexuality or homosexual marriage.


And if you were to find such a lodge who had your views, I'm certain that you would fit in well.

[QUOTE=GrimoireA3] I'm being factual because Masons deserve the truth.



[QUOTE=coach]You have a strange idea as to what is factual and what we deserve.


Objectivity seems to escape you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2016 at 11:02pm


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Against what???

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you don't know, no explanation will suffice.


But I do know, which is why I am telling you the truth.
 

Correction, your BELIEF.  NOT a FACT.  Personal beliefs do not become truth, nor fact, no matter how strongly you believe them.



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 

 ...the homosexual infiltration of my Church has clearly demonstrated what happens to any organization that tolerates homosexuality in its midsts - and what the homosexuals did to the Catholic Church will happen to Freemasonry if the Craft doesn't stop it. The Catholic church is currently enjoying billion dollar lawsuits and hundreds of thousands of sexually abused children at the hands of homosexuals because the Catholic church did not enforce its catechism banning homosexuals from being ordained...

Umm... This is just a very warped view on the multiple cases of pedophilia, NOT homosexuality (although I'm sure that many of the priests involved claim that they are "plagued" by homosexuality, to avoid persecution by their piers and congregation, and prosecution by the law.)  Also, just in case you are not aware, there are many cases of young girls who have been sexually abused also, it's not just boys.  Kinda pokes a great big gaping hole in your "homosexual infiltration" theory.  

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

If I were a loyal Freemason in good standing, this ruling would give me cause for concern about the efficacy of the Craft.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you were to be what you would claim, and your Brothers trained you well in Craft tenets and principles, you would not be posting what you have posted.


Coach - that smacks of indoctrination, brain washing, and mind control.

Did you seriously just go there...???  I mean REALLY!?!?  Religion; not limited to Catholicism, is THE VERY DEFINITION of indoctrination, brain washing, and thought/belief control.  It is quite literally the reason for, and designed purpose of religion.  Make no mistake about it, religion was created by man.. more specifically groups of powerful men, throughout history who desired more power and more control.  This in not my belief, it is an actual fact.  Millions of religious parents teaching their children; from very very young and impressionable ages, about their archaic, superstitions, and fairy tails out of some "holy" book when they are still so young that the don't know that santa and the easter bunny aren't real.  (sorry if I just burst anyone's bubble on santa and the easter bunny...lol!)    How do you control a population?  By controlling what they hear, think, and in turn believe, as truth.   The very same way that the governments of the world use the 24 hour news media (and religion still) today to do the very same thing.  Open your eyes.. do some research.. look at history. 

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



No, I am an objective follower of the Craft.

No no no no no... you are NOT an objective follower of the craft.  You are a Catholic (even if a "lapsed" one) observer of the Fraternity.  Quite simply put.. you don't know what you're talking about.  You're just another misinformed, mislead, and brainwashed catholic who is passing judgment on a group that  doesn't conform to the churches "laws" and allows it's members to have a mind of their own and think for themselves.   I could write another 3 paragraphs on the history of persecution of Freemasony (and other groups that stray from the beliefs and "laws" of Catholicism) By the Catholic church.  How do you think Christianity became so diverse within itself with so many sectarian groups and individual denominations?  Again.. history and fact.. NOT my belief.  

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

But, rest assured. They are not condoning anything absurd.


Then they are in denial.

Again, YOUR catholic bias opinion.  NOT a fact.  Stop doing that...

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 Then why purposely widen the gulf and alienate potential qualified members?


Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.  You are not alienated by Freemasonry.  It is NOT Freemasonry that disqualifies catholics, it is Catholicism that disqualifies you from joining Freemasonry.  Read and learn your papal bulls please. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry) Catholics who join our order are to be excommunicated by the church.  We do not have anything stating that catholics are not allowed to join.  Our only spiritual requirement is that you profess a belief in some supreme being, power, or force, greater than man kind, commonly referred to as "god".  

Finally, by alienating men who are in all aspects well qualified candidates simply because they are homosexual, is the very definition of "purposely widening the gulf" and alienating potentially qualified candidates.  

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I'm being factual because Masons deserve the truth.


You're not being factual about a damn thing sir.. you are stating your opinion.  You seem to be confused about the difference.
 
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You have a strange idea as to what is factual and what we deserve.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Objectivity seems to escape you.

I believe you are unaware of the definition of the word... and it is certainly escaping you.

ob·jec·tiv·i·ty
ˌäbjekˈtivədē/
noun
  1. the quality of being objective.
    "the piece lacked any objectivity"
    synonyms:impartialityabsence/lack of bias, absence/lack of prejudice, fairness,fair-mindedness, neutrality, evenhandedness, justice, open-mindedness,disinterestdetachment, dispassion, neutrality



  2. edited to include link to papal bulls


Edited by Adept? - March/25/2016 at 9:57am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 7:11am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Shots were fired all right. Point: I am not a Mason.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I am truly relieved to read this.
Much to your loss.

You assume based upon your subjective biases.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Point: I am dead set against homosexual marriage for any reason whatsoever.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Then don't marry someone who is your gender.
Which would still not validate homosexual marriage.

The solution doesn't have to. It only prevents some poor man from having to deal with you and your attitude.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Bigotry?
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Yes
No.

Careful, your bias is showing.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Against what???
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you don't know, no explanation will suffice.
But I do know, which is why I am telling you the truth.

Through your posts you continual demonstrate an example of an inability to grasp the difference between truth and opinion.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Homosexuality is not a race, religion, ethnicity, nor is it the third sex.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Correct
You agree, but you don't understand. You hear, but you do not listen. You look, but you do not see. - Holy Book of Law

You assume so much and continually demonstrate misunderstanding.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Homosexuality is a mental health disorder, emotionally damaged behavior.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

It was once classified this way. Research has shown this to be incorrect.
Not entirely true. Politically correct definitions of homosexuality are being reconsidered, especially in light of the D.S.M. V being rejected by the psychiatric community. And ex-homosexuals speaking out against the homosexual life style.

Ex-homosexuals? Your response shows that you are once again misinformed and clearly biased by misinformation.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

You cannot be bigoted against mental illness,and that is all homosexuality is, a mental illness - 'intrinsically disordered' behavior.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You appear to be convinced about this. You also appear to have a lot of energy bound up in this. Interesting.
Of course, the homosexual infiltration of my Church has clearly demonstrated what happens to any organization that tolerates homosexuality in its midsts - and what the homosexuals did to the Catholic Church will happen to Freemasonry if the Craft doesn't stop it. The Catholic church is currently enjoying billion dollar lawsuits and hundreds of thousands of sexually abused children at the hands of homosexuals because the Catholic church did not enforce its catechism banning homosexuals from being ordained, and the warnings against homosexuality as clearly defined in the Catholic Bible -- as well as in the Holy Book of Law. Abomination?

Ah! The smoking gun. Clearly you have been biased by all this. Thanks for revealing the source. Your linking pedaphilia to this issue helps clarify why you have the distorted stance you do.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

If I were a loyal Freemason in good standing, this ruling would give me cause for concern about the efficacy of the Craft.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you were to be what you would claim, and your Brothers trained you well in Craft tenets and principles, you would not be posting what you have posted.
Coach - that smacks of indoctrination, brain washing, and mind control.

Only to someone who is suffering from indoctrination, brainwashing and mind control.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am a lapse Roman Catholic and I am thisclose to renouncing Catholicism wholesale.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

What can I do to push you over the edge?
You and Freemasonry could publically renounce homosexual marriage?😁
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Now I must consider Freemasonry.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

And you're not even a member. Interesting!
No, I am an objective follower of the Craft.

You only think that you are. You are mistaken.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

By condoning absurd homosexual marriage Freemasonry is leaving itself wide open to further criticism, further schisms, and marginalizing itself from non-Masonic admirers.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You could do with some further education. Freemasonry is condoning nothing. Certain officers in different jurisdictions are.
Yes I can do with a whole lot more education - and as a Freemason so can you!!

Based upon what you have presented herein, I no longer believe further education would help your situation. You appear to need something more therapeutic.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

But, rest assured. They are not condoning anything absurd.
Then they are in denial.

Your misinformed responses continually reveal a skewed understanding of how Freemasonry is set up.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

As far as opening itself up to further criticism and further schisms, welcome to our world!
Then why purposely widen the gulf and alienate potential qualified members?

Why indeed?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

BTW - I don't believe members truly care about non-masonic admirers. It's not our focus.
And that's to the deficit of Freemasonry!

Not really; but continue to be an outsider dreaming your dream.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

At this moment in time I'm afraid I'm glad not to be a Mason, ...
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You are afraid; I'm ecstatic![/coach]Again, not a healthy attitude for any fraternity member to have - lacks charity.

Doctor, heal thyself.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...because I couldn't stand for any Lodge supporting homosexuality or homosexual marriage.
And if you were to find such a lodge who had your views, I'm certain that you would fit in well.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I'm being factual because Masons deserve the truth.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You have a strange idea as to what is factual and what we deserve.
Objectivity seems to escape you.

As with so many things, here too you appear to also misunderstand what the word actually means.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 10:33am
"Gentlemen"  It is time to stop this thread! 
If you wish to continue ripping each other apart sentence by sentence and word by word, then please take it to private messaging.  I have no desire to go back to what was going on a few years ago, it is not good for this forum and gives a bad impression to possible new members.   Disapprove
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 11:38am
I vote along with De.......After the first recent exchange, the thread went from "interesting" to "tiresome.  If you wish to continue this discourse, please do not clutter up my computer with it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 12:41pm
I agree with DeDarrah and rchadwic. This thread is unbecoming of Masons. 

However, there is one thing I cannot let go by.

Adept, you have made it clear that you are against organized religion and have made some very hostile statements towards it, and about one major religion in particular. You are of course entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to it, however, you need to realize that while Freemasonry recognizes no one religion, deeply embedded in that philosophy is that Freemasonry has a deep respect for, and welcomes all religions, even religions that are not so welcoming of Freemasonry. This secular aspect of Freemasonry is not because Freemasonry is hostile to religion, it is because it is welcoming of religion. Time and again Freemasonry stresses the importance of religion in a man's life; it just leaves the way he practices it up to him. Our teachings attempt to inculcate that in all of our members, as well as respect for all religions. That seems to have escaped you. 


Edited by droche - March/25/2016 at 12:46pm
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