Shots Fired! |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Topic: Shots Fired! Posted: March/25/2016 at 6:26pm |
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Admin Note: I agree this thread is headed South with no winners in this debate/discussion. Everyone has their own opinion and will not likely to change ... and ... at this point have clearly stated their position. ... The problems highlighted will have to be resolved by GLs & GMs involved.
So I am Locking this thread and warn everyone to Temper their posts and opinions on this subject. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 4:21pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 4:02pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well thank you for you concern Brother. I do appreciate it. Rest assured however that my hostility and disdain toward religion as a whole is based solely on my personal belief that it is detrimental to the advancement of civilized society, and the human race as a whole.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 3:52pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Yes, Freemasonry can be hurt by the toleration of homosexual members and the support of homosexual marriage. And here's why.
So I'll try to bring this thread back on focus. First I understand Masons to be circumspect when it comes to discussing Masonic issues with non-Masons, even fans such as myself. But if I were a Mason, then I could not be as candid as I am now. So I can afford to be blunt - sorry for that. Now what happens when an organization welcomes homosexuals or is infiltrated by them has a clear example to observe - the fate of the Catholic church. Because the Catholic church ignored its own rules against the ordination of homosexuals as Catholic priests, as clearly described in the Catholic catechism, and warnings about the reality of homosexuality as vividly described in the Holy Catholic Bible, the Vatican is now currently enjoying dozens of billion dollar law suits, tens of thousands of sexually abused children at the hands of homosexual priests, a declinage in Catholic membership, a critical shortage of priests, the massive sell-off of huge tracts of real estate, the closing of hundreds of Catholic churches & schools (including my own), and the forced consolidation of resources. Not to mention public scorn and international ridicule. And all this could easily happen to Freemasonry if Masons don't get their act together and openly disagree with absurd homosexual marriages and caustic homosexual lifestyle. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 3:47pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Any deep, lingering hostility and anger toward anything is self-destructive. Your hostility and anger comes through on your posts. I say that as a Brother wishing you to improve yourself in Masonry and not to excoriate you.
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 2:58pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hey, that's my line. LOL!
How so...??? Please elaborate.
Edited by Adept? - March/25/2016 at 2:59pm |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 2:46pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well, I tried to enlighten you a little bit but you are not seeing it. All I can say is I am very disappointed and disheartened by your outlook. I hope in your Masonic Journey you will find a way to see things differently. Your outlook is very destructive to yourself.
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 1:50pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't recall having made any "hostile" statements about any religion in particular. I have however made some factual statements about certain religions, and religion as a whole, that could certainly be viewed as hostile by those of that particular belief system. This back and forth that has taken place here above is the product of differing opinions, and that is all well and good, but when one individual, affiliated with our order or not, begins stating beliefs, and opinions as facts.. then we have a problem. As I have previously stated, and will state here again now. Beliefs and opinions are NOT facts. No matter how much you believe, or how hard you cling to them. No more than facts are any less factual simply because you make a conscious decision to ignore them because they are contrary to your beliefs.
I guess I will have to agree with you on that point Brother. I respect an individuals right to believe whatever they choose. All I can do is attempt to educate and enlighten. You can lead a person to the light, but you can not make them see it. I have no respect for religions at all. Rather I understand, and recognize them for what they are, or rather what they were. A tool. A means to an end. An allegory, never meant to be taken as literal, no different than our beloved, and sacred rituals. But they have been misinterpreted, and misunderstood by millions the world over since their inception. As have our very own rituals. I have heard many a Brother speak of our ritual stories as if they were actual accounts of historic events. They are not! They are allegorical stories, unfortunately misunderstood by so many. Here we are in the dark ages... I long for the awakening and enlightenment of our species....
Edited by Adept? - March/25/2016 at 2:01pm |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 12:41pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I agree with DeDarrah and rchadwic. This thread is unbecoming of Masons.
However, there is one thing I cannot let go by. Adept, you have made it clear that you are against organized religion and have made some very hostile statements towards it, and about one major religion in particular. You are of course entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to it, however, you need to realize that while Freemasonry recognizes no one religion, deeply embedded in that philosophy is that Freemasonry has a deep respect for, and welcomes all religions, even religions that are not so welcoming of Freemasonry. This secular aspect of Freemasonry is not because Freemasonry is hostile to religion, it is because it is welcoming of religion. Time and again Freemasonry stresses the importance of religion in a man's life; it just leaves the way he practices it up to him. Our teachings attempt to inculcate that in all of our members, as well as respect for all religions. That seems to have escaped you.
Edited by droche - March/25/2016 at 12:46pm |
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rchadwic
Quarryman Joined: June/04/2011 Location: Palm Bay, FL Status: Offline Points: 254 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 11:38am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I vote along with De.......After the first recent exchange, the thread went from "interesting" to "tiresome. If you wish to continue this discourse, please do not clutter up my computer with it.
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Bob Chadwick
Palm Bay #397 Palm Bay, Fla |
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De Darrah
Matron Joined: November/10/2007 Location: Sacramento CA Status: Offline Points: 3419 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 10:33am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
"Gentlemen" It is time to stop this thread!
If you wish to continue ripping each other apart sentence by sentence and word by word, then please take it to private messaging. I have no desire to go back to what was going on a few years ago, it is not good for this forum and gives a bad impression to possible new members. |
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De
Past Matron New Hope Ch. #117 OES PWHP Palm Shrine No.32 now Alchor #27 WSOJ Y.B.Y.S.A.I.A. As Brother Ben F. said "In Wine there is Wisdom In Beer there is Freedom In Water there is Bacteria" < |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/25/2016 at 7:11am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You only think that you are. You are mistaken.
Based upon what you have presented herein, I no longer believe further education would help your situation. You appear to need something more therapeutic.
Your misinformed responses continually reveal a skewed understanding of how Freemasonry is set up.
Why indeed?
Not really; but continue to be an outsider dreaming your dream.
As with so many things, here too you appear to also misunderstand what the word actually means. |
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/24/2016 at 11:02pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Correction, your BELIEF. NOT a FACT. Personal beliefs do not become truth, nor fact, no matter how strongly you believe them.
Umm... This is just a very warped view on the multiple cases of pedophilia, NOT homosexuality (although I'm sure that many of the priests involved claim that they are "plagued" by homosexuality, to avoid persecution by their piers and congregation, and prosecution by the law.) Also, just in case you are not aware, there are many cases of young girls who have been sexually abused also, it's not just boys. Kinda pokes a great big gaping hole in your "homosexual infiltration" theory.
Did you seriously just go there...??? I mean REALLY!?!? Religion; not limited to Catholicism, is THE VERY DEFINITION of indoctrination, brain washing, and thought/belief control. It is quite literally the reason for, and designed purpose of religion. Make no mistake about it, religion was created by man.. more specifically groups of powerful men, throughout history who desired more power and more control. This in not my belief, it is an actual fact. Millions of religious parents teaching their children; from very very young and impressionable ages, about their archaic, superstitions, and fairy tails out of some "holy" book when they are still so young that the don't know that santa and the easter bunny aren't real. (sorry if I just burst anyone's bubble on santa and the easter bunny...lol!) How do you control a population? By controlling what they hear, think, and in turn believe, as truth. The very same way that the governments of the world use the 24 hour news media (and religion still) today to do the very same thing. Open your eyes.. do some research.. look at history.
No no no no no... you are NOT an objective follower of the craft. You are a Catholic (even if a "lapsed" one) observer of the Fraternity. Quite simply put.. you don't know what you're talking about. You're just another misinformed, mislead, and brainwashed catholic who is passing judgment on a group that doesn't conform to the churches "laws" and allows it's members to have a mind of their own and think for themselves. I could write another 3 paragraphs on the history of persecution of Freemasony (and other groups that stray from the beliefs and "laws" of Catholicism) By the Catholic church. How do you think Christianity became so diverse within itself with so many sectarian groups and individual denominations? Again.. history and fact.. NOT my belief.
Again, YOUR catholic bias opinion. NOT a fact. Stop doing that...
Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. You are not alienated by Freemasonry. It is NOT Freemasonry that disqualifies catholics, it is Catholicism that disqualifies you from joining Freemasonry. Read and learn your papal bulls please. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry) Catholics who join our order are to be excommunicated by the church. We do not have anything stating that catholics are not allowed to join. Our only spiritual requirement is that you profess a belief in some supreme being, power, or force, greater than man kind, commonly referred to as "god". Finally, by alienating men who are in all aspects well qualified candidates simply because they are homosexual, is the very definition of "purposely widening the gulf" and alienating potentially qualified candidates.
You're not being factual about a damn thing sir.. you are stating your opinion. You seem to be confused about the difference.
I believe you are unaware of the definition of the word... and it is certainly escaping you. ob·jec·tiv·i·ty ˌäbjekˈtivədē/ noun
Edited by Adept? - March/25/2016 at 9:57am |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: March/24/2016 at 6:42pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Objectivity seems to escape you. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/23/2016 at 9:12pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
VERY well said as usual Bro. Coach! I must say though.. when I read the following...
... I quite literally laughed out loud, and almost fell out of my chair!
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/23/2016 at 6:02pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I am truly relieved to read this.
Then don't marry someone who is your gender.
Yes
If you don't know, no explanation will suffice.
Correct
It was once classified this way. Research has shown this to be incorrect.
You appear to be convinced about this. You also appear to have a lot of energy bound up in this. Interesting.
If you were to be what you would claim, and your Brothers trained you well in Craft tenets and principles, you would not be posting what you have posted.
What can I do to push you over the edge?
And you're not even a member. Interesting!
You could do with some further education. Freemasonry is condoning nothing. Certain officers in different jurisdictions are. But, rest assured. They are not condoning anything absurd. As far as opening itself up to further criticism and further schisms, welcome to our world! BTW - I don't believe members truly care about non-masonic admirers. It's not our focus.
You are afraid; I'm ecstatic!
And if you were to find such a lodge who had your views, I'm certain that you would fit in well.
You have a strange idea as to what is factual and what we deserve. Edited by coach - March/23/2016 at 6:04pm |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: March/23/2016 at 4:29pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Shots were fired all right. Point: I am not a Mason. Point: I am dead set against homosexual marriage for any reason whatsoever.
Bigotry? Against what??? Homosexuality is not a race, religion, ethnicity, nor is it the third sex. Homosexuality is a mental health disorder, emotionally damaged behavior. You cannot be bigoted against mental illness,and that is all homosexuality is, a mental illness - 'intrinsically disordered' behavior. If I were a loyal Freemason in good standing, this ruling would give me cause for concern about the efficacy of the Craft. I am a lapse Roman Catholic and I am thisclose to renouncing Catholicism wholesale. Now I must consider Freemasonry. By condoning absurd homosexual marriage Freemasonry is leaving itself wide open to further criticism, further schisms, and marginalizing itself from non-Masonic admirers. At this moment in time I'm afraid I'm glad not to be a Mason, because I couldn't stand for any Lodge supporting homosexuality or homosexual marriage. I'm being factual because Masons deserve the truth. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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jdwalker519
Quarryman Joined: October/12/2013 Location: Washington, DC Status: Offline Points: 226 |
Posted: March/18/2016 at 3:19pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That was me. It took place in the CSRA area of Georgia, near Augusta.
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J.D. Walker
Free and Accepted Masons of the District of Columbia Royal Arch of the District of Columbia Order of the Eastern Star, Grand Chapter of Virginia |
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/18/2016 at 2:47pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://forum.mastermason.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12271
found the incident I referenced in the above post. It took place in Georgia....
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/18/2016 at 2:34pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Absolutely! You hit the nail on the head Brother! I have never been present in any situation when a potential candidate has been turned away, or told to seek elsewhere (PHA) based on race. Unfortunately I am aware, (from posts on here, stories I've heard, and just from paying attention to the sad state of our nation) that race is still a major issue for some, and that things like that, (and worse) do happen. I recall one such incident in a post on this forum (If I recall correctly) that a visiting Brother, not a candidate, was asked to leave the lodge because a member of the lodge that he was visiting objected to his presents there solely because of the color of his skin. How sad is that?!?! I don't recall the state but I do recall that it was in the south. Not to imply that race issues do not exist in other areas of the nation, but these discrimination issues, whether based on race or not, seem to originate in, or at the very least be more prevalent in; the southern states.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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BroScubaSteve
Quarryman Joined: February/25/2013 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 375 |
Posted: March/18/2016 at 1:23pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I wonder how our Black Brethren that have been flat out told to join PHA feel about this.
I guess CA, DC and Belgium never had an issue with that since racism isn't actually legislated in Georgia's constitution. I know I'm being a snarky with this reply. It is however intended to get the reader to recognize discrimination is discrimination no matter which way you slice it. Edited by BroScubaSteve - March/18/2016 at 1:50pm |
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Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/17/2016 at 11:23am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LMAO!
That's pretty good Coach! Very creative, well done!
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/17/2016 at 9:27am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/14/2016 at 1:44pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brethren, Many of you certainly have heard about the recent events
involving the Grand Lodges of Georgia and Tennessee. For the benefit of those
who have not, in short, they have decided to exclude men from being masons in
their jurisdictions based on their sexual orientation. As a result, some Grand
Jurisdictions have taken the action of withdrawing recognition of Georgia and
Tennessee. I believe that discrimination runs contrary to our beliefs
as Masons, that Masons unite men of every country sect and opinion. I have
recently read the opinion of the Grand Master of Washington, D.C., an ordained
minister, who feels as I do that this action, imposes one set of religious
values on the entire Craft. Masonry has always been a place where a man’s faith
does not matter, so long as he believes in one ‘Supreme Architect of the
Universe’. We need to remain an inclusive society and not an exclusive one. Brethren this is my position on this subject. I am not, at
this time going to unilaterally issue a judgement that the Grand Lodge of Maine
remove recognition. We have a Grand Lodge session coming up in a few weeks,
where the Committee on Fraternal Relations will offer a report which will cover
this topic, along with their recommendation. We will have the opportunity to
discuss this issue at that time and then vote as a body. In the meantime, I pray that we remain the society of
tolerant men that we have always espoused to be and that the actions of these
two Grand Lodges do not set up a rift that threatens all that we have professed
for generations. Your Friend and Brother, Dave David A. Walker Grand Master Grand Lodge of Maine, A.F. & A.M. Edited by Adept? - March/14/2016 at 1:45pm |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: March/12/2016 at 8:24pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bro. Ellis,
I have only been acquainted with two Masons I knew to be gay. Both were respectable men from what I could see and made significant contributions to Masonry. Another gay man who is a close friend is one I would have no problem recommending as a Mason, were he to ask. He is a professional, very unassuming and a compassionate individual, among other desirable traits. On the other hand, I witnessed a gay pride parade and one of the things I remember that stuck out at me was a young man on a float wearing nothing but leather briefs and a chain around his neck dancing suggestively on the float. There were also cross-dressers dressed in gawdy outfits, flamboyant hairstyles and make-up. I could not in good conscience recommend men like these to be Masons. However, in the current atmosphere, were I to tell a man like the latter I described that I would not recommend him to be a Mason, I risk being labeled as a "homophobe" and that is not right. So, you have somewhat an idea of what I consider to be the boundary of our moral conscription. What is yours?
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/12/2016 at 3:57pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Likes this ^
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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c.m.ellis
Quarryman Joined: March/04/2010 Location: Queens, NY Status: Offline Points: 51 |
Posted: March/12/2016 at 11:09am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brothers,
I appreciate how passionate some Brothers are about their faith. However, there are some facts about broader and historical Freemasonry that must be considered. I’ve tried to organize this a way that, if you get so fuming mad that you can’t read the whole thing, you can simply skim the bold points. A couple of disclosures before I start: (1) I am Christian and (2) I am a gay Mason.
Edited by c.m.ellis - March/12/2016 at 11:11am |
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Chris Ellis
facebook.com/xphrellis |
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goomba
Quarryman Joined: February/08/2012 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 408 |
Posted: March/11/2016 at 3:53pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This was a great read and a much needed one. |
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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF
Living in the DC area. |
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MarkMaster
Quarryman Joined: February/14/2008 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 744 |
Posted: March/11/2016 at 9:21am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
https://masonictao.com/2016/03/11/the-pot-calling-the-kettle-black-part-1/ Interesting article on current issues. There are two other parts to come. |
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"Si apis, sis apis."
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 9:06pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Idk how we got from homosexuals in Freemasonry to marriage, but what the hell, we're down the rabbit hole now.. might as well look around a bit.
Opinion only, not a fact, and an opinion based on an archaic allegorical story written by man, not god. (That's an entirely different rabbit hole...jump on down it... if you believe your faith is strong enough.) Let me just simply state that it is possible to believe in a force, power, or being, that is the creator of the universe, and all that it contains without subscribing to the dogma of religion. That is a FACT. That we would all be better off for it.. is merely my opinion.
This is a modifier only used, and made necessary because of the anti-gay community. If Chad, and Thomas decide to get married, I can assure you that their wedding invitations will not say "you are invited to our gay-wedding" It will just say "please attend our wedding" or something to that effect. Just like if you were planning to attend, and were telling someone else about it, you would not say "i'm going to a gay wedding" (or at least I hope you would not) you would just say "I have a wedding to go to." I'll apologize now just in case any of my comments or statements herein are inflammatory, or offensive to some. I seem to have a knack for that...
Edited by Adept? - March/12/2016 at 3:58pm |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 7:48pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No. We cannot splice words all day. That is a waste of time and serves no good purpose. Your definition is a personal as to what constitutes a marriage and is one that is not held by all. I shan't throw anything out the window. I shall speak my truth. If you don't agree with it, that is your right, as is how others understand what is actually being communicated by that holy book. Edited by coach - March/10/2016 at 7:48pm |
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Hyksos
Quarryman Joined: February/28/2010 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 827 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 6:57pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
We can splice words all day, but marriage is one man and one woman. If the SCOTUS suddenly announced tomorrow that potatoes were considered livestock from a legal standpoint, it wouldn't mean the definition of the word livestock changed just because they said so. The word gay is necessary in front of marriage because it is a modifier. Unless you want to throw 2000 years of linguistic history out the window, marriage is between a man and a woman. Now, obviously, I don't disagree that the SCOTUS held that gay marriage is protected under the equal protection clause, but that really has nothing to do with a private fraternity that quite blatantly has reverence for the Holy Bible in its lodge room.
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Gainesville Lodge #41
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 4:34pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't know what you think that I wrote, but let me try to write it different: The Supreme Court said it was unconstitutional to discriminate based upon sexual orientation in matters of obtaining marriage licenses. Marriage is legal and you can't ban people from getting marriage based upon sexual orientation. Marriage is legal. This is the law of the land. Banning people from it, based on the aforementioned reasons is unconstitutional. This is different from "Gay Marriage is legal". Marriage is marriage. Is that clearer? Edited by coach - March/10/2016 at 4:37pm |
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Hyksos
Quarryman Joined: February/28/2010 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 827 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 3:55pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This is completely untrue. No federal law currently protects sexual orientation from discrimination. The EEOC, less than a year ago for the first time ever, declared sexual orientation to be protected. This is not in the statute and is presently being tested in the Courts. It is nothing but an agency statement from a radical left-wing government at this point. http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/otherprotections.cfm ("The Commission has also held that discrimination against an individual because of that person's sexual orientation is discrimination because of sex and therefore prohibited under Title VII. See David Baldwin v. Dep't of Transportation, EEOC Appeal No. 120133080 (July 15, 2015), http://www.eeoc.gov/decisions/0120133080.pdf."). http://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-files-first-suits-against-businesses-alleging-sexual-orientation-discrimination
I'd also add that any private organization can exclude anyone for any reason. The KKK can exclude people based on race and the Black Panthers can exclude anyone based on race as well. There does not need to be a religious aspect. The only time you can't discriminate is when you are involved in business because it affects interstate commerce and therefore the commerce clause grants congress the power to regulate it. The notion that it is illegal to discriminate against homosexuals in private organizations is absurd. |
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Gainesville Lodge #41
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 2:59pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No. The law of the land says that marriage is legal and that it is unconstitutional to ban anyone from being regulated by the state, based upon sexual preference.
Yes. But members of said organizations may still have to tolerate them even if they don't accept them.
Yup. And being so, it cannot afford any one person or groups of persons to make it their religious bastion at the expense of other members.
Yup. Just as long as they do so within their own religion based organization.
Yes. It can however force them not to violate the laws of the land in their practice.
Red hearing. We have within our ceremonies something like this: "In the State you are to be a quiet and peaceable citizen, true to your government and just to your country. You are not to countenance disloyalty and rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live." Our country allows for it. We are to conform to it.
Yes. But the moment you start discriminating within an "non-religion based" organization, regardless of how religious it may claim to be, based upon your religious beliefs, you're going to get push-back.
Yup! And likewise, if another GL wants to suspend recognition. They are free to do just that too. |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 2:44pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That is only a dramatic opinion. CA allowed the TN and GA membership to suffer the natural consequence for supporting their GL actions. If they don't like the consequence, they know how to fix it so the consequence goes away. |
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jdwalker519
Quarryman Joined: October/12/2013 Location: Washington, DC Status: Offline Points: 226 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 12:34pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Except we have brethren of ALL religions in our fraternity, and some of those religions do not view homosexuality in and of itself as immoral.
Oh, and for the record California and the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium have suspended recognition. DC has only suspended Fraternal Relations...which means no official delegations, but individual brothers from GA or TN who don't have 'Grand' in their titles are still free to visit our Lodges.... |
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J.D. Walker
Free and Accepted Masons of the District of Columbia Royal Arch of the District of Columbia Order of the Eastern Star, Grand Chapter of Virginia |
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Hyksos
Quarryman Joined: February/28/2010 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 827 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 12:05pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The law of the land says gay marriage is legal. It doesn't say that all private organizations must accept homosexuality. Isn't a common adage that masonry is not a religion, but it is religious in nature? The law of the land (US Constitution) protects the religious rights of people to practice their faith. It also provides that private organizations based on sincerely held religious beliefs cannot be forced by government to violate those beliefs. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that an organization that requires the Bible on the altar, and the manner in which our candidates become Masons (will not be discussed for obvious reasons), somehow excludes us from the protection of religious liberty. There is no tension between complying with US law and holding sincere religious beliefs that homosexuality is immoral. Quite frankly I don't care either way. If a Grand Lodge wants to ban it, I understand. If they don't want to ban it, that's fine too. That is what sovereignty is all about! |
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Gainesville Lodge #41
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Hyksos
Quarryman Joined: February/28/2010 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 827 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 11:57am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It is punishment by excluding every single person who is solely a member of the Grand Lodge of Georgia from visiting any California or DC lodge, regardless of their personal beliefs on this issue. |
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Gainesville Lodge #41
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MarkMaster
Quarryman Joined: February/14/2008 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 744 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 10:20am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
My apologies, Brothers, for sounding off in such an arrogant and belligerent manner earlier. I would offer a defense, but there really is none. We each have differing opinions and positions on issues .... and that in itself is, perhaps, Masonry: many different building blocks fitted together, rubbing off a rough edge here, chipping a linking edge there .....
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"Si apis, sis apis."
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 6:36am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There exist "other" reasons, the law of the land first and foremost, of which I believe we are to adhere to based upon what I recall from Ritual. |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 6:34am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
How is this "punishment"? |
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Hyksos
Quarryman Joined: February/28/2010 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 827 |
Posted: March/10/2016 at 4:07am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I believe it is very telling that those Grand Lodges and/or Masons who are up in arms over the actions of TN and GA seem to have no problem whatsoever with other forms of discrimination so long as they agree with it. There is a very small and very loud percentage of the population that is vehemently pro homosexual. Enough so that they go to great lengths to ruin the careers of people who even speak out on the topic. They seem to have been able to hijack some portions of masonry as well.
If other Grand Lodges want to allow homosexuals then that is their right. As far as I know my Grand Lodge has no such rule against homosexuals. However I find it very telling that GA and TN have maintained recognition. For example, theoretically, they have maintained ties with the GL of CA knowing full well that a visiting brother from there could be homosexual and not subject to the disciplinary laws. This person would still be able to visit the lodges and be fully recognized as a regular master Mason provided of course that a member of a lodge did not object to the visitor's presence. This is a great example of a respect of sovereignty by respecting another GL's rules that you may not agree with, and not placing a blanket punishment on the members of that GL by de-recognizing every single Mason from that state. On the other hand, California has decided to exclude every single master Mason from Georgia regardless of whether or not they actually believe in the rule against homosexuals. They are punishing the entire state membership because they don't agree with one of the rules of that GL. |
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Gainesville Lodge #41
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 8:35pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What bothers me about the LGBT controversy in this country, and in Canada too, is that there is a demand, an insistence, that all people subscribe to all of the views of even the most extreme elements of that movement. There is no wiggle room, subscribe to our views, 100%- or else... The term "homophobe" was invented, and this term is loosely bandied about and applied to anyone who might disagree even to the slightest extent with someone who holds a more liberal view. It reminds me of people in the 1950's who were called Communists if they even held a slightly liberal view. I remember that. Yet, nowadays, people who don't subscribe to the politically correct view are demonized, even destroyed in some cases.
Masonry should be above that. A Mason's good standing should not be called into question, nor should his interpretation of Masonic teachings be called into question if he sincerely holds views he believes to be moral and ethical. Some ritual states that our purpose is, in so many words, to unite men of every country, sect and opinion. That includes opinions that may not be popular in the mainstream. Why the Grand Lodges of Georgia and Tennessee chose their actions, I don't know. In my experience, there is usually more going on than what we know. Perhaps they overreacted, but perhaps California overreacted too. This issue is a perfect example of why we teach subduing one's passions. Edited by droche - March/09/2016 at 8:41pm |
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 8:05pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well put.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 8:03pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well... where to begin.
You are absolutely correct my Brother, and I am wrong for that, and I apologize.
again, correct. I am as bias as they come when it comes to religions and their dogma and propaganda. I am against any, and all organized religions. Having said that, I understand them for what they are... a necessary tool. Unfortunate as that is. I'll leave it at that, because anything further would most likely be inflammatory to some, and I don't wish to continue that... It seems I've done enough of it already.
Indeed, it is subjective to be sure. As you yourself stated above. Lets call this issue what it really is. It is Brothers in certain areas attempting to, and in some cases succeeding in, imposing their particular individual religious views, and beliefs, and version of morality on others, and on the organization in their respective jurisdictions. Which I believe is detrimental to the organization, and society as a whole.
What are the "moral foundations" of the our "craft", and where do they come from? Again, subjective.
Actually, I am familiar. There was a discussion in another thread about it a while back. I don't agree with it.. but it is what it is. I feel it is very unfortunate for those jurisdictions to exclude otherwise potentially great candidates based on their religious preference, or lack there of.
certainly not! I'm merely stating that should a homosexual man desire to become a candidate in a jurisdiction that prohibits homosexuals from joining, that the individual could lie when/if asked, if only to avoid being discriminated against as such. Something that they have (unfortunately, but most likely) become accustom to. I apologize if I have offended anyone with any of my statements here, or above. It was not my intention to cause any disharmony. These are my opinions and beliefs only. To each their own.
Edited by Adept? - March/09/2016 at 8:15pm |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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goomba
Quarryman Joined: February/08/2012 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 408 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 6:59pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The Grand Lodges of CA, GA (USA), TN, DC and (insert any name) have each exercised their sovereignty. I fully support each of these grand lodges in taking sovereign action as is their right. Currently these grand lodges are at odds with one another over an issue. This is of no surprise to me as people are at odds with one another over various issues.
Part of the Masonic ritual I went through as an Entered Apprentice told me it is the internal not the external. What this boils down to is different understandings of this concept. What we need to keep in mind is WE the Master Masons are the grand lodge. True we might not each get a vote at grand lodge sessions but we still have a voice. We as gentlemen and brothers can and should work together peacefully and at times agree to disagree. If the matter is so momentous that common ground cannot be reached then maybe suspending fraternal relations is the correct answer. Or maybe the answer is some concept totally different. Wisdom, strength, and beauty I hope the GAOTU guides each and every mason to a peaceful resolution. |
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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF
Living in the DC area. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 6:23pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
..... ..... |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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Hyksos
Quarryman Joined: February/28/2010 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 827 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 5:45pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
People throw the word bigot around pretty frequently these days. The irony is that the definition of bigotry is "intolerance toward those who hold a different view than you." By labeling people who disagree with you as "bigots" you are being a bigot by the very definition of the word.
As for the exclusively Christian argument, I assume you are not familiar with Scandinavian countries and the "Swedish Rite" of Freemasonry that they practice? In those nations you must be a Christian to be a Mason. Nobody is cutting ties with them over it. The only reason people are cutting ties with GA and TN is because there is a militant political correctness movement that desires to stamp out anything that runs counter to the beliefs of the PC crowd. It is this militant mentality that everyone must agree with you that is the true problem. Sovereignty means nothing if it is not respected. |
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Gainesville Lodge #41
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MarkMaster
Quarryman Joined: February/14/2008 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 744 |
Posted: March/09/2016 at 12:06pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Let's start here .....your argument, or statement, if you prefer, comes across as pretty self-righteous. "If you feel otherwise ..."? Sounds like you - and Hoddap and a few others, have set yourselves up as arbiters of what is and is not intended by our Obligations and Constitutions. Not a tenable position, Brother. Your opinions do not mean any more or any less than thousands of other men in Freemasonry. You are welcome to them and welcome to express them, but de"my brother"ting others for holding differing views is a bit untoward.
I had this conversation elsewhere, but it has yet to be effectively rebutted: Freemasonry is NOT about bringing people together indiscriminately -- in fact, it is all about discriminating on the grounds stated in your Obligation and Lessons. There is a reason we are supposed to guard the Gates, and the tyler's sword is a symbol of the seriousness with which we are supposed to approach that duty. "Tolerance" and "acceptance" are nice buzzwords, but there is little general agreement on their meaning. An example: I can tolerate my neighbor's drug use without accepting it, or him, into my home; I can accept that people approach living and loving in different ways without tolerating deviance from those standards which my community has set as our guideline. In short, Freemasonry is more about exclusion than about inclusion .... which is one of the reasons it has survived so many years of social change as an intact institution.
Opinions differ.... the majority of the country will not, IMHO, line up for an internal civil war. PHA didn't impact us this way (although there was a period of unpleasantness), and this issue won't either.
Are you sure you need to be so general in condemning Brothers as "bigots" because they don't agree with your point of view? Such accusations are often more reflective of the character of the accuser than of the accused. More: are you suggesting that someone should lie on their application? If so, that is certainly enough reason to reject them without any other issue being raised; I did understand the drift of your argument, but that supporting idea is not constructive. As to the second point: if I discover that a man who, although perfectly charming and cheerful in other ways, is discovered to be an atheist -- am I not allowed to change my opinion of that person? So to with homosexuality, which some perceive as deviant and immoral. You cannot seriously be suggesting that morality is relative? If so, then what is the point of building our work on the moral foundations of this craft? Interesting situation, though .... I wonder how it will all work out? Edited to properly display quotes. Not a word altered. :-)
Edited by Adept? - March/09/2016 at 8:18pm |
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"Si apis, sis apis."
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