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Perfection - How is it attained?

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    Posted: April/29/2016 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Ah! A "historic" critique is more of what you had in mind. Awesome! That would definitely help with fine-tuning future prints.

BTW - I truly wish you the best of luck in the direction you're alluding to. I've found that what usually qualifies as "Masonic History" is too often flights of fancy supported by documents that are further flights of fancy, etc.. The biggest challenge Freemasonic Historians face is knowing when what they are reading is actual history rather than fabrications designed to further support what was clearly intended to be taken as allegorical lore.

The book is a first wave effort to get through that mire to see what existed behind the smokescreen of 300 years of fabrications. I'm hoping it will lay a foundation for further research with what this book made effort to unmask. ;-)


Yes, an objective historical critique. So in order to perfect my ashlar even further, I will send my opinion to you via private mail for your personal perusal.

Also, I would like to ask a personal favor from you regarding the Life Coach position. Thanx!


Thank you for the courtesy.

I shall put a feeler out on your PM to see if I can find out any more info for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2016 at 11:28am


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Ah! A "historic" critique is more of what you had in mind. Awesome! That would definitely help with fine-tuning future prints.

BTW - I truly wish you the best of luck in the direction you're alluding to. I've found that what usually qualifies as "Masonic History" is too often flights of fancy supported by documents that are further flights of fancy, etc.. The biggest challenge Freemasonic Historians face is knowing when what they are reading is actual history rather than fabrications designed to further support what was clearly intended to be taken as allegorical lore.

The book is a first wave effort to get through that mire to see what existed behind the smokescreen of 300 years of fabrications. I'm hoping it will lay a foundation for further research with what this book made effort to unmask. ;-)


Yes, an objective historical critique. So in order to perfect my ashlar even further, I will send my opinion to you via private mail for your personal perusal.

Also, I would like to ask a personal favor from you regarding the Life Coach position. Thanx!
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2016 at 5:46am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Glad you are sticking to it. KUDOS!


Are you sure you want me to do a critique of The Craft Unmasked?


I said "I look forward to hearing your thoughts". If this includes a critique, so be it. The book has been received extremely well by both Brothers (scholar and not) and profane alike. The feedback from the profanes were all along the same line and can be summarized as:

This book was supposed to be about Freemasonry, but I found it applying to every organization I ever belonged to.

If you can add to this, awesome.


Thank you. I like your Work very well. But as a trained Historian (MA History '87 UMass) I am trained to critique everything I read, as all historians are supposed to do.


Ah! A "historic" critique is more of what you had in mind. Awesome! That would definitely help with fine-tuning future prints.

BTW - I truly wish you the best of luck in the direction you're alluding to. I've found that what usually qualifies as "Masonic History" is too often flights of fancy supported by documents that are further flights of fancy, etc.. The biggest challenge Freemasonic Historians face is knowing when what they are reading is actual history rather than fabrications designed to further support what was clearly intended to be taken as allegorical lore.

The book is a first wave effort to get through that mire to see what existed behind the smokescreen of 300 years of fabrications. I'm hoping it will lay a foundation for further research with what this book made effort to unmask. ;-)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2016 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Glad you are sticking to it. KUDOS!


Are you sure you want me to do a critique of The Craft Unmasked?


I said "I look forward to hearing your thoughts". If this includes a critique, so be it. The book has been received extremely well by both Brothers (scholar and not) and profane alike. The feedback from the profanes were all along the same line and can be summarized as:

This book was supposed to be about Freemasonry, but I found it applying to every organization I ever belonged to.

If you can add to this, awesome.


Thank you. I like your Work very well. But as a trained Historian (MA History '87 UMass) I am trained to critique everything I read, as all historians are supposed to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2016 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Glad you are sticking to it. KUDOS!


Are you sure you want me to do a critique of The Craft Unmasked?


I said "I look forward to hearing your thoughts". If this includes a critique, so be it. The book has been received extremely well by both Brothers (scholar and not) and profane alike. The feedback from the profanes were all along the same line and can be summarized as:

This book was supposed to be about Freemasonry, but I found it applying to every organization I ever belonged to.

If you can add to this, awesome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2016 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Glad you are sticking to it. KUDOS!


Are you sure you want me to do a critique of The Craft Unmasked?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2016 at 9:16am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Moderator note
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">
GrimoireA3, 
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">   <span style="line-height: 16.8px;">It would seem I have offended you in some way in the editing of the "spoiler" section of your post.  I do apologize for any ill feelings my action may have created.  As Brother Coach stated, the section of your post that was edited was </span>basically equivalent to spoiling the ending of a fiction book, or a movie.  

<span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>I too am glad that you read, and enjoyed the book, and even more so that you decoded, and enjoyed the cipher text, (as I did myself) but in posting the "answers" to the cipher text here, you essentially robbed anyone who read them of the opportunity to have the same experience and enjoyment that we shared in the decoding of the messages.

    Again, my apologies for any ill feelings my action of editing your post may have created. 




Not being a Freemason obviously my ignorance shows regarding Masonic etiquette. Being circumspect is not yet reflexive within me as my puppy dog enthusiasm for books and, more recently, Masonic literature leads me into all sorts of petty violations annoying to experienced & practiced Masons. Proof that I'm not perfect. Apology accepted - thank you.

Glad you are sticking to it. KUDOS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2016 at 8:52am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Moderator note
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">
GrimoireA3, 
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">
<strong style="line-height: 16.8px;">   <span style="line-height: 16.8px;">It would seem I have offended you in some way in the editing of the "spoiler" section of your post.  I do apologize for any ill feelings my action may have created.  As Brother Coach stated, the section of your post that was edited was </span>basically equivalent to spoiling the ending of a fiction book, or a movie.  

<span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>I too am glad that you read, and enjoyed the book, and even more so that you decoded, and enjoyed the cipher text, (as I did myself) but in posting the "answers" to the cipher text here, you essentially robbed anyone who read them of the opportunity to have the same experience and enjoyment that we shared in the decoding of the messages.

    Again, my apologies for any ill feelings my action of editing your post may have created. 




Not being a Freemason obviously my ignorance shows regarding Masonic etiquette. Being circumspect is not yet reflexive within me as my puppy dog enthusiasm for books and, more recently, Masonic literature leads me into all sorts of petty violations annoying to experienced & practiced Masons. Proof that I'm not perfect. Apology accepted - thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2016 at 12:40am
I'm going to say it.  If you are half as smart as you claim to be then you would grasp what Coach was talking about and why your post was edited. 

So this leaves me with two thoughts about your behavior:

1.  You are not so smart as you think, or
2.  You are intentionally being a pain.

Either way I'm tired of reading your post and from now on will just ignore you.  You have went from a colorful laugh to being boring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 12:55pm
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GrimoireA3, 

   It would seem I have offended you in some way in the editing of the "spoiler" section of your post.  I do apologize for any ill feelings my action may have created.  As Brother Coach stated, the section of your post that was edited was basically equivalent to spoiling the ending of a fiction book, or a movie.  

I too am glad that you read, and enjoyed the book, and even more so that you decoded, and enjoyed the cipher text, (as I did myself) but in posting the "answers" to the cipher text here, you essentially robbed anyone who read them of the opportunity to have the same experience and enjoyment that we shared in the decoding of the messages.

    Again, my apologies for any ill feelings my action of editing your post may have created. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 9:26am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection is still ongoing?

It is for me. How about you?


Yes, which is why I purchase your books and participate on this forum (making good men better). I'm not afraid to work on my ashlar.

BUT IT APPEARS THERE ARE SOME OTHERS ON THIS FORUM WHO REALLY REALLY REALLY NEED TO POLISH THEIR ASHLARS! But I won't mention names.

Only SOME?! Are you sure that you don't want to re-examine your estimate?


... ...

"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 8:53am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection is still ongoing?

It is for me. How about you?


Yes, which is why I purchase your books and participate on this forum (making good men better). I'm not afraid to work on my ashlar.

BUT IT APPEARS THERE ARE SOME OTHERS ON THIS FORUM WHO REALLY REALLY REALLY NEED TO POLISH THEIR ASHLARS! But I won't mention names.

Only SOME?! Are you sure that you don't want to re-examine your estimate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 8:49am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection is still ongoing?

It is for me. How about you?


Yes, which is why I purchase your books and participate on this forum (making good men better). I'm not afraid to work on my ashlar.

BUT IT APPEARS THERE ARE SOME OTHERS ON THIS FORUM WHO REALLY REALLY REALLY NEED TO POLISH THEIR ASHLARS! But I won't mention names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 8:46am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection is still ongoing?

It is for me. How about you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 8:41am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:



... it would be more respectful to the intent of the book to have shared these decoded messages in private so others would not have it ruined for them.



Took care of that for you Coach.  Smile

Thank you very much my good Brother.



Will my critique of THE CRAFT UNMASKED also get edited? Guess I will pass on that.


"Sometimes they would respond with abusive indignation. They took any opportunity they could to attack both the thoughts and the very person who shared these thoughts. They did so with a barrage of words and actions that made heads spin for those involved and even some of those who observed.

The fallout of their negative behavior degraded many opportunities for harmonious discourse. They employed dissention with every word they conveyed. Their mere presence would be a signal to shut discourse down. Many left who came together for intelligent exchange. They soon shut down any efforts to share Light contrary to what they dogmatically held to be true."1

1The Craft Unmasked page 18.


Perfection is still ongoing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 8:40am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:



... it would be more respectful to the intent of the book to have shared these decoded messages in private so others would not have it ruined for them.



Took care of that for you Coach.  Smile

Thank you very much my good Brother.



Will my critique of THE CRAFT UNMASKED also get edited? Guess I will pass on that.

Understood.

BTW - Reviews are always appreciated. Disclosing all the ciphered challenges that the entire book has to offer is akin to telling someone who might read a murder mystery that the butler did it. It ruins it for the potential reader.

The edit was not done to slap. It was done to not ruin it for others.

Reviews should share the experience without ruining the experience for those who may read the book based upon the reviewer's experience, not the reader's report of what is in it.

Did you NOT read and heed the warning placed squarely in the beginning of the book?

Edited by coach - April/26/2016 at 8:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 8:26am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:



... it would be more respectful to the intent of the book to have shared these decoded messages in private so others would not have it ruined for them.



Took care of that for you Coach.  Smile

Thank you very much my good Brother.



Will my critique of THE CRAFT UNMASKED also get edited? Guess I will pass on that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2016 at 5:18am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:



... it would be more respectful to the intent of the book to have shared these decoded messages in private so others would not have it ruined for them.



Took care of that for you Coach.  Smile

Thank you very much my good Brother.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2016 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:



... it would be more respectful to the intent of the book to have shared these decoded messages in private so others would not have it ruined for them.


Took care of that for you Coach.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2016 at 10:51am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.
KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.


YES, for me the 'CRAFT UNMASKED' has proven to be a very informative and entertaining read. Thank you!

In fact, when I saw the Cipher Key on page 163, I immediately began from front to back to decode all the ciphers within your 'Work' before reading. And a bit of Masonic magic occurred, by the time I decoded the last two ciphers, I was no longer referring to the key:


I'm delighted that you enjoyed the decoding. However, it would be more respectful to the intent of the book to have shared these decoded messages in private so others would not have it ruined for them.

Quote
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.


I am working on a critique at the moment.

Awesome!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2016 at 9:33am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.
KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.


YES, for me the 'CRAFT UNMASKED' has proven to be a very informative and entertaining read. Thank you!

In fact, when I saw the Cipher Key on page 163, I immediately began from front to back to decode all the ciphers within your 'Work' before reading. And a bit of Masonic magic occurred, by the time I decoded the last two ciphers, I was no longer referring to the key:

Edited

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.


I am working on a critique at the moment.




Edited by Adept? - April/25/2016 at 6:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2016 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.

LOL! Have you ever used fuzzy math? Studied Statistics? Used integration? Approximations ALL!



Actually yes. I am currently reading: THE SEVEN PILLARS OF STATISTICAL WISDOM (2016) by Professor Stephen M. Stigler, and apparently statistics has come into its own and is no longer a branch of Mathematics. Interesting. Same thing has happened with Genetics, it is so important that is has morphed off from Biology and become its own subject.

So probability, fuzzy math (which is actually Logic) is under the aegis of Statistics, no longer mathematics. Integration (i.e. the calculus)is still part of the Mathematics discipline.

So Mathematics still demands PROOF. Not statistics.   


PROOF governed by rules fabricated and used by the application of syllogisms, which are premised upon agreement that may provide false positives and negatives.

And, obviously, if we can label something as not falling in line with a classification of math, then logically we can dismiss it as not applicable, even though its very core is math.

Oh the web we weave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2016 at 11:02am


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.

LOL! Have you ever used fuzzy math? Studied Statistics? Used integration? Approximations ALL!



Actually yes. I am currently reading: THE SEVEN PILLARS OF STATISTICAL WISDOM (2016) by Professor Stephen M. Stigler, and apparently statistics has come into its own and is no longer a branch of Mathematics. Interesting. Same thing has happened with Genetics, it is so important that is has morphed off from Biology and become its own subject.

So probability, fuzzy math (which is actually Logic) is under the aegis of Statistics, no longer mathematics. Integration (i.e. the calculus)is still part of the Mathematics discipline.

So Mathematics still demands PROOF. Not statistics.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2016 at 10:40am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

..Not perfection, but TRUTH can be found in Mathematics since Math requires 'PROOF'.


Sure. But is only called "true" only because it matches with what is expected based upon a bunch of fabricated rules that are agreed upon.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

YES,that is the problem with physics, engineering, architecture - but not with Mathematics. The mathematician will disregard any equation that doesn't have a PROOF. The Physicist is not so fussy.

You're assuming it is a problem. It is not, at least for engineers. Engineers make things work. They do this by understanding the principles and then applying them accordingly; that is to say, apply theory to practice where theory is not always practical.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.


LOL! Have you ever used fuzzy math? Studied Statistics? Used integration? Approximations ALL!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2016 at 10:24am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.

Thank you coach. I would appreciate a list of those logical fallacies I made since I take logic quite seriously any mistake I make can be a learning experience for me (to keep working on my ashlar).


Sure. Let's start with your premises. Syllogisms are premises surrounded by arguments. Your premises are where the fallacies have rooted.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

1) "There are no atheists in foxholes".

A subjective generalization; not factual.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

2) "You've never met a combat veteran I take it?"

This asks a question assuming that the response will support the original premise. It has nothing truly to do with supporting your initial premise.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

3) "No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes."

Also begs to gain support through subjective realization without factual evidence supporting a fabricated aphorism based upon such generalizations.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

4) "...the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Not all S.H.s believe in God.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

5) "... you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.

A reasonable assumption of a possibility, but totally reliant upon knowing the person who would subject himself to such efforts.

There are flaws contained in every one of your premises.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2016 at 8:54am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.


Not perfection, but TRUTH can be found in Mathematics since Math requires 'PROOF'.

PHYSICS is not math, but uses mathematics to 'measure', and Physics doesn't care about 'proof' but results. [Please see the Feynman Lectures: The relation of Mathematics to Physics.]

That is an important distinction between Math & Physics, because Mathematics is a search for TRUTH by way of PROOFS, which is why Math is so important to Philosophy.

So Math and Physics (and Engineering) are not the same thing and have different goals to achieve. One is truth, the second might be perfection, but not the perfection define by coach or applied to the ashlar.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.


YES,that is the problem with physics, engineering, architecture - but not with Mathematics. The mathematician will disregard any equation that doesn't have a PROOF. The Physicist is not so fussy.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.


And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.


Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


Seems to happen a lot on this forum?
My reply concerning mathematics was going from paper to ground and not concerning Proof as you put it.

I can calculate a Geodesic or whatever line you wish me to calculate on the surface of the earth in a CAD program but you can never match the true measured distance in the computer on the ground. Nor can you never actually measure the distance on the ground and be 100 percent certain it is correct.

Our sketch may be perfect, but implementing it never will be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

As to the atheist in a foxhole to prove it right you need every single veteran of every single military from every single time. To prove it wrong you need one example.

I know one atheist by name who I was stationed at Ft. Gordon with. Ergo with this one example the idea of no atheist in a foxhole has been proven wrong. We should now move forward from this as it is a false idea.

Exaaaaactly!  THANK YOU!  ClapThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 5:19pm
As to the atheist in a foxhole to prove it right you need every single veteran of every single military from every single time. To prove it wrong you need one example.

I know one atheist by name who I was stationed at Ft. Gordon with. Ergo with this one example the idea of no atheist in a foxhole has been proven wrong. We should now move forward from this as it is a false idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 5:15pm
Math does not demand nor require 100%. It to is a system of "being close". Take the example of pi. We use 3.14 as a general rule but this is not pi. Being that pi does not end every calculation no matter how far out you go with pi is an approximation and not 100% accurate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:37am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.


Not perfection, but TRUTH can be found in Mathematics since Math requires 'PROOF'.

PHYSICS is not math, but uses mathematics to 'measure', and Physics doesn't care about 'proof' but results. [Please see the Feynman Lectures: The relation of Mathematics to Physics.]

That is an important distinction between Math & Physics, because Mathematics is a search for TRUTH by way of PROOFS, which is why Math is so important to Philosophy.

So Math and Physics (and Engineering) are not the same thing and have different goals to achieve. One is truth, the second might be perfection, but not the perfection define by coach or applied to the ashlar.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.


YES,that is the problem with physics, engineering, architecture - but not with Mathematics. The mathematician will disregard any equation that doesn't have a PROOF. The Physicist is not so fussy.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.


And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.


Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


Seems to happen a lot on this forum?
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't think the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," like so many other sayings, was meant to be taken so literally. Of course it cannot be proven that every atheist who has experienced combat found God. Being a veteran too, I can see though what is intended by the saying and I never was in combat, but I became more religious as a result of my experiences in the service.

This thread about perfection has produced a lot of thought provoking and meaningful discussions and I don't want to see it degenerate to a point where it will have to be closed because of an argument over a frivolous point, but I can see it heading that way.


Agreed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:10am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.


Thank you coach. I would appreciate a list of those logical fallacies I made since I take logic quite seriously any mistake I make can be a learning experience for me (to keep working on my ashlar).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 1:21pm
I don't think the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," like so many other sayings, was meant to be taken so literally. Of course it cannot be proven that every atheist who has experienced combat found God. Being a veteran too, I can see though what is intended by the saying and I never was in combat, but I became more religious as a result of my experiences in the service.

This thread about perfection has produced a lot of thought provoking and meaningful discussions and I don't want to see it degenerate to a point where it will have to be closed because of an argument over a frivolous point, but I can see it heading that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 1:21pm
Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.

It is not possible. The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


Edited by BroScubaSteve - April/08/2016 at 1:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 10:27am
GrimoireA3, 

First of all, I am a Veteran.  I think that settles that...LOL!

You said,
"No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes."

ok, so.. proven, and accepted can not be used in this manner.  It's either proven and factual, or it is accepted and believed.  It can not be both.  There is absolutely NO way to PROVE the quote/statement is factual.  To do so would require you to have been in every "foxhole", in every war, with every front line soldier throughout history, up to and including right now as you are reading this.  Impossible.  Period.  You can BELIEVE whatever you wish.

The origin of the quote is said to be as follows...

Origin[edit]

The origin of the quotation is uncertain.[2] U. S. Military Chaplain William Thomas Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942,[3] though scholars have been unable to find a firsthand witness to the sermon.[4] Other sources credit Lieutenant Colonel Warren J. Clear (or the anonymous sergeant he spoke with there), who was also at Bataan and published the usage in 1942;[5] or Lieutenant Colonel William Casey. The phrase is often attributed to war correspondent Ernie Pyle;[6][7][8][9]however, no such source published prior to Pyle's death is known. It was also quoted by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954, American Legion Program. With slightly different wording, the statement appears much earlier in press reports dating from the end of the First World War, while a similar concept has been sought in Plato's Laws.[2]  

... but again, NO proof, so who knows.

Notable counterexamples[edit]

During the news coverage of his death and subsequent cryonic suspension, Hall of Fame baseball player and fighter pilot Ted Williams was said to be an atheist, by his former teammate Johnny Pesky.[16][17] Richard Tillman, in giving the eulogy for his brother, former NFL player and soldier Pat Tillman, stated: "he's not religious."[18] Tillman's atheism is discussed in a documentary about his life.[19][20] Philip Paulson, plaintiff in several of the lawsuits in the Mount Soledad cross controversy, was an atheist Vietnam combat veteran.[21]

Joe Simpson, author of Touching the Void, addresses the issue in the film adaptation of his nearly fatal climb up the Siula Grande mountain. Referring to the moment when he lay at the bottom of a deep crevasse, dehydrated, alone, and with a broken leg, he states: '"I was totally convinced I was on my own, that no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout Catholic. I'd long since stopped believing in God. I always wondered if things really hit the fan, whether I would, under pressure, turn round and say a few Hail Marys and say 'Get me out of here'. It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and I really do think that when you die, you die, that's it, there's no afterlife."[22]

Several atheist organizations object to the phrase. The Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers has adopted the catch-phrase "Atheists in Foxholes" to emphasize that the original statement is just anaphorismus and not a fact. The over 200 members of this organization publicly display their military service in order to show that there are atheists in foxholes, and on ships, and in planes.[23] The religious convictions of current U.S. military personnel are similar to those of the general American population, though studies suggest that members of the military are slightly less religious.[24] Department of Defense demographics show that "Atheist" is selected as a religious preference (0.55% or less than 1 percent of the total DoD force) more than non-Christian options such as Agnostic (0.12%), Hindu (0.07%), Buddhist (0.38%), Muslim (0.24%), and Jewish (0.33%).[25] James Morrow has been quoted as saying "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes," as the mental state, or decisions, of an extremely frightened and desperate person can hardly be imagined to be more rational than those of a person in a calm state.[26] Due to its opposition to the phrase, the Freedom From Religion Foundation has erected a monument to "Atheists in Foxholes".[27]


Finally, I don't need any further education in order to point out bull when I see it.

 I'm not rationalizing anything.  I do not need to rationalize your belief, or anyone else's for that matter.  You are the one who is attempting (and failing) to rationalize the quote and state it as a fact, when it is not.  You can attend all the MIT lectures you like, but until you remove all of your preconceived notions about things, set your religious beliefs aside, and enter the lecture with a mind that is open to further education, and enlightenment... then I'm afraid that it is MY BELIEF that you are utterly wasting your time.

    Thank you.




Edited by Adept? - April/08/2016 at 10:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 9:27am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".


   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that?


You've never met a combat veteran I take it?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one.


No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.


As I explained to droche in an above thread, the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Adept? - take this objectively but you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.

You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 8:29am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".


   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that?


You've never met a combat veteran I take it?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one.


No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.


As I explained to droche in an above thread, the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Adept? - take this objectively but you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2016 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".

   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that? It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one. Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2016 at 10:35am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I seem to have reinvented the wheel with this post.

coach's prior post: Perfect in Sanity, already addressed this issue.

The Fit Foil Foul Fits Fitly

Every academic discipline has its own 'jargon' - similar words that are given a different meaning according to the discipline. So the word 'culture' is used differently by the biologist and the anthropologist. The astronomer speaks of 'space' differently than the architect speaks of 'space'. And each discipline develops its own jargon (or nomenclature).

As for Masonic jargon, the meaning of 'perfect' from coach: "Research shows that the multitude of words [4] most commonly and generically translated to the word 'perfect' reflect more accurately a general meaning of Complete, Mature, Healthy, Sound, and Sane rather than the very often specific and misguided claim of Flawless."

And thanks to coach, I now see the light of the meaning of perfection in Masonry.

In my copy of Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia (1961) under 'perfect' it says, see Ashlar, perfect. And coach gave a further clear and rigorous explanation of the rough and perfect ashlar. So cool.


Thanks. It is most unfortunate that ignorant members assign a subjective and highly biased meaning upon the term "Perfect Ashlar".

If they had taken the time to explore Operative Masonic literature, they would quickly come to grasp and understand that a perfect ashlar is not a flawless ashlar; it's just a suitable ashlar for the builder's use and very likely contains flaws that would not interfere with the end use.

Equally unfortunate are how their ignorance impacts each generation of men coming through.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2016 at 9:18am
I seem to have reinvented the wheel with this post.

coach's prior post: Perfect in Sanity, already addressed this issue.

The Fit Foil Foul Fits Fitly

Every academic discipline has its own 'jargon' - similar words that are given a different meaning according to the discipline. So the word 'culture' is used differently by the biologist and the anthropologist. The astronomer speaks of 'space' differently than the architect speaks of 'space'. And each discipline develops its own jargon (or nomenclature).

As for Masonic jargon, the meaning of 'perfect' from coach: "Research shows that the multitude of words [4] most commonly and generically translated to the word 'perfect' reflect more accurately a general meaning of Complete, Mature, Healthy, Sound, and Sane rather than the very often specific and misguided claim of Flawless."

And thanks to coach, I now see the light of the meaning of perfection in Masonry.

In my copy of Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia (1961) under 'perfect' it says, see Ashlar, perfect. And coach gave a further clear and rigorous explanation of the rough and perfect ashlar. So cool.
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't think God is a theory. I have a very deep belief that he exists. It would not surprise me if his creation was perfect, and I lean toward thinking it was. I'm just thinking, so what if it wasn't? It's irrelevant to me. It wouldn't lessen my estimation of God in any way, shape or form.


I don't think God is just a theory either. But the atheists do think God is just a theory. And it is the atheists that I give constant debate.

"There are no atheists in foxholes".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2016 at 2:09pm

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.


I ordered THE CRAFT UNMASKED today, its on its way. Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.


Sorry coach I wasn't trying to misguide you. I misinterpreted your good explanation using 'illusion' to make a point. My apologies.


Unnecessary, but received in the spirit of intent. Thank you.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.


Now I understand your use of 'illusion' which I initially took out of context. Again, sorry about that!

Unnecessary as well, and thank you anyway.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.


Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.

KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.


Sorry coach I wasn't trying to misguide you. I misinterpreted your good explanation using 'illusion' to make a point. My apologies.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.


Now I understand your use of 'illusion' which I initially took out of context. Again, sorry about that!


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.


Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.


droche,

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.


The name is Georg[sic] Cantor. No 'e' after George.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 10:15am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Coach gave an answer to this but I'll add my own take.



Thank you droche. I realized to late that I interpreted coach's use of 'illusion' out of context so I owe coach an apology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 8:51am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
 But isn't all reality just an illusion???

Perhaps it is in the final analysis, but Freemasonry doesn't get into such high level physics and philosophy. I think this is where people who are not Masons (and some who are) that study Freemasonry get lost in the forest because of the trees. Freemasonry is a practical morality system with which we can deal with life as it exists on this Earth. That is reality for the here and now. For example, if a branch falls and hits one on the head, one can't say that is an illusion and walk away as if nothing happened.

Quote So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?

Coach gave an answer to this but I'll add my own take. Freemasonry doesn't distinguish reality from illusion in the sense you are speaking of, i.e. all reality is just an illusion. Freemasonry deals with only reality as we know it. This is just based on my experience.


Edited by droche - April/03/2016 at 8:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, I agree. If God did create an imperfect world, then that was his intent, and in that sense he was being perfect. I'm just wondering if God created something and let it go, so to speak, to see where it led. But these are just ramblings and musings on my part. One has to admit though, this thread makes one think...


There was one "not good" condition that He created and then made effort to remedy. He failed until He knocked his focus out to remedy the condition.

Edited by coach - April/03/2016 at 9:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 8:12pm
Yes, I agree. If God did create an imperfect world, then that was his intent, and in that sense he was being perfect. I'm just wondering if God created something and let it go, so to speak, to see where it led. But these are just ramblings and musings on my part. One has to admit though, this thread makes one think...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 7:38pm
Just a quick thought: I do not believe that even God has what we humans believe to be this bogus concept of perfection. Creation is on going and even God, in his perfect effort, creates "not good" conditions that require further perfecting.
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