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Perfection - How is it attained?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 11:59am
Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.


Thanks. Where are you located Brother Scout?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
Great answer! The 'nexus' - the connection. Could it be as brought out by droche that the definition of perfect is the nexus between spiritual and physical?

Wow, you Masons are smart.

I would think it would be closer to the union of the physical with the spiritual and not just the bridge between the two. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection: what is it? And can it be attained or is it an impossible abstraction to achieve? Thanx!

Aside from the definition you accept and apply toward both your question and your mission, you must also carefully deal with and establish a specific standard by which to measure or guide you.

If you do not, you'll chase the horizon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.

<snicker> You knew it was coming.

Let me know what is your interest BEFORE you purchase so that I can recommend one of the 11 that are available.


Dear Dr. Nagy,

I did not know you were a Phd.

Thank you for your recommendation.

Since I do not know enough about Freemasonry to have a specific interest, I had just planned to start at the beginning with volume 1. Amazon.com carries your works at $25.0 each, and when I finished with them I was going to donate them to the library at the Grand Lodge on Tremont Street here in Boston, (which I have walked past most of my life).

Thanx again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.

<snicker> You knew it was coming.

Let me know what is your interest BEFORE you purchase so that I can recommend one of the 11 that are available.


Dear Dr. Nagy,

I did not know you were a Phd.

Thank you for your recommendation.

Since I do not know enough about Freemasonry to have a specific interest, I had just planned to start at the beginning with volume 1. Amazon.com carries your works at $25.0 each, and when I finished with them I was going to donate them to the library at the Grand Lodge on Tremont Street here in Boston, (which I have walked past most of my life).

Thanx again.

GrimoireA3,

It's not a Phd. at all. It's a D. Min., but thanks for checking.

If you wish to save a few $s, you can obtain them directly from my website at http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilder.htm

Volume one is a great overview. The first four books are in catechism form and are designed to both inform and to train.

Your donation will benefit many members. KUDOS!

Coach
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/01/2016 at 9:13am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.


Thanks. Where are you located Brother Scout?


Dunedin Lodge #192
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/01/2016 at 9:39am
Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.

Thanks. Where are you located Brother Scout?

Dunedin Lodge #192

May 21, 2016 is going to be a BLAST! I love that is it local.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 11:10am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.


O.K., just ordered a used copy of Building Janus from amazon.com (because I have a account with them). Should arrive next week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 11:54am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.


O.K., just ordered a used copy of Building Janus from amazon.com (because I have a account with them). Should arrive next week.

MM level stuff. Brace yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 11:56am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

This discussion of perfection reminds me of calculus. You know, a function approaches "0" but never quite reaches it. I think it is the same with perfection. One case where the spiritual meets the physical in this universe.


Great answer! The 'nexus' - the connection. Could it be as brought out by droche that the definition of perfect is the nexus between spiritual and physical?

Wow, you Masons are smart.

Nah... Just a bunch of wise-guys.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 12:36pm
So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.

Yet, the creation itself is perfect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 2:37pm
How can we know that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?

Has it failed to exist so far?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Nah... Just a bunch of wise guys.


And wisdom comes with age. And Freemasonry is how old? Very old, and as far as my three years of readings and research - very wise, a different kind of wisdom than what I'm used to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.


droche,

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Nah... Just a bunch of wise guys.


And wisdom comes with age. And Freemasonry is how old?


Only about 300 years. Don't buy the stories about being older. That's all lore.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

[QUOTE=coach]Very old, and as far as my three years of readings and research - very wise, a different kind of wisdom than what I'm used to.


Don't confuse the illusion with the reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?


We can't. Humans must accept it 'a priori' on faith. And that is the basis on both Christianity and science. Scientists have a lot of 'faith' in their theories. So if God is just a 'theory' according to atheists, then what do atheists base their trust in theories? According to falsifiable thesis, they (atheists) haven't a perfect leg to stand on.

[quote] Only a fool doesn't believe in God. [unquote] -- The Sacred Book of Law
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Don't confuse the illusion with the reality.


Oooohhh!   Interesting. But isn't all reality just an illusion???

And this is both taught and accepted at MIT's physics and philosophy departments (which I hang out and attend lectures - sorry to name drop but I'm over there all the time and had worked there for two years).

What did Neils Bohr tell Einstein at the Copenhagen conference? - that atoms are not 'things'! (pssst - they are 'wavelengths').

And coach, with your degrees in the advanced sciences, you know better!!

So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

MM level stuff. Brace yourself.


Pardon my ignorance -- MM level??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?

Has it failed to exist so far?

No, it hasn't if I am reading your post right. But how does that mean that creation was/is perfect? I am not denying it, just asking, how do we know for sure?


Edited by droche - April/02/2016 at 5:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.

OK, I'll look him up, but I'll take your word that Cantor proved mathematically that infinity exists. I can see that.

I am actually thinking outside the Masonic box. My thoughts on all this are my own and very little, if any comes from Masonic teachings. Remember, Masonic teachings all boil down to how we treat our brothers and the rest of humanity. They don't directly get into all this deep philosophical and mathematical stuff. There is an area of Masonic thought that some call "Esoteric Masonry" that gets into numbers, astrology and all that but anything I get out of that leads me to believe that it is all quite speculative. I am not denying that some or all of it might be true, but when we get into that stuff a lot of people miss the forest because of the individual trees, in my own opinion. The forest being that Freemasonry exists to make good men better. Period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?


We can't. Humans must accept it 'a priori' on faith. And that is the basis on both Christianity and science. Scientists have a lot of 'faith' in their theories. So if God is just a 'theory' according to atheists, then what do atheists base their trust in theories? According to falsifiable thesis, they (atheists) haven't a perfect leg to stand on.

[quote] Only a fool doesn't believe in God. [unquote] -- The Sacred Book of Law

I don't think God is a theory. I have a very deep belief that he exists. It would not surprise me if his creation was perfect, and I lean toward thinking it was. I'm just thinking, so what if it wasn't? It's irrelevant to me. It wouldn't lessen my estimation of God in any way, shape or form.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Don't confuse the illusion with the reality.


Oooohhh!   Interesting. But isn't all reality just an illusion???

And this is both taught and accepted at MIT's physics and philosophy departments (which I hang out and attend lectures - sorry to name drop but I'm over there all the time and had worked there for two years).

What did Neils Bohr tell Einstein at the Copenhagen conference? - that atoms are not 'things'! (pssst - they are 'wavelengths').

And coach, with your degrees in the advanced sciences, you know better!!

So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?


I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.

Edited by coach - April/02/2016 at 7:59pm
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?
Has it failed to exist so far?


No, it hasn't if I am reading your post right. But how does that mean that creation was/is perfect? I am not denying it, just asking, how do we know for sure?


Bro.,

It was designed and created to do exactly what it does.

Just because we humans don't like what it was designed and created to do and mistakenly believe that it could be better in some way, does not mean that it is not perfect.

It was designed to be what it is and do what it does.

And it is perfect in that respect in every way.

This include every single thing that we could possibly condemn as imperfect. <scoff> As if we knew God's intent in these little distracting misunderstood things.

Edited by coach - April/02/2016 at 6:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:52pm
That's right, we don't know God's intent. So, for all we know, it could have been his intent to make it imperfect, for whatever reason, we wouldn't know. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if it were perfect, and I do lean that way... but I don't think God will think any less of me for asking... If He does, then maybe I'll get a good slap when I come face to face with my Judge.

We're not that far off in our views. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

That's right, we don't know God's intent. So, for all we know, it could have been his intent to make it imperfect, for whatever reason, we wouldn't know. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if it were perfect, and I do lean that way... but I don't think God will think any less of me for asking... If He does, then maybe I'll get a good slap when I come face to face with my Judge.

We're not that far off in our views. 

Agreed on all accounts. Although I suspect all is perfectly in motion and as it was intended.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 7:38pm
Just a quick thought: I do not believe that even God has what we humans believe to be this bogus concept of perfection. Creation is on going and even God, in his perfect effort, creates "not good" conditions that require further perfecting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 8:12pm
Yes, I agree. If God did create an imperfect world, then that was his intent, and in that sense he was being perfect. I'm just wondering if God created something and let it go, so to speak, to see where it led. But these are just ramblings and musings on my part. One has to admit though, this thread makes one think...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2016 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, I agree. If God did create an imperfect world, then that was his intent, and in that sense he was being perfect. I'm just wondering if God created something and let it go, so to speak, to see where it led. But these are just ramblings and musings on my part. One has to admit though, this thread makes one think...


There was one "not good" condition that He created and then made effort to remedy. He failed until He knocked his focus out to remedy the condition.

Edited by coach - April/03/2016 at 9:16am
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
 But isn't all reality just an illusion???

Perhaps it is in the final analysis, but Freemasonry doesn't get into such high level physics and philosophy. I think this is where people who are not Masons (and some who are) that study Freemasonry get lost in the forest because of the trees. Freemasonry is a practical morality system with which we can deal with life as it exists on this Earth. That is reality for the here and now. For example, if a branch falls and hits one on the head, one can't say that is an illusion and walk away as if nothing happened.

Quote So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?

Coach gave an answer to this but I'll add my own take. Freemasonry doesn't distinguish reality from illusion in the sense you are speaking of, i.e. all reality is just an illusion. Freemasonry deals with only reality as we know it. This is just based on my experience.


Edited by droche - April/03/2016 at 8:53am
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Coach gave an answer to this but I'll add my own take.



Thank you droche. I realized to late that I interpreted coach's use of 'illusion' out of context so I owe coach an apology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.


droche,

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.


The name is Georg[sic] Cantor. No 'e' after George.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.


Sorry coach I wasn't trying to misguide you. I misinterpreted your good explanation using 'illusion' to make a point. My apologies.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.


Now I understand your use of 'illusion' which I initially took out of context. Again, sorry about that!


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.


Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2016 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.


Sorry coach I wasn't trying to misguide you. I misinterpreted your good explanation using 'illusion' to make a point. My apologies.


Unnecessary, but received in the spirit of intent. Thank you.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.


Now I understand your use of 'illusion' which I initially took out of context. Again, sorry about that!

Unnecessary as well, and thank you anyway.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.


Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.

KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2016 at 2:09pm

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.


I ordered THE CRAFT UNMASKED today, its on its way. Thanks again.
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't think God is a theory. I have a very deep belief that he exists. It would not surprise me if his creation was perfect, and I lean toward thinking it was. I'm just thinking, so what if it wasn't? It's irrelevant to me. It wouldn't lessen my estimation of God in any way, shape or form.


I don't think God is just a theory either. But the atheists do think God is just a theory. And it is the atheists that I give constant debate.

"There are no atheists in foxholes".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2016 at 9:18am
I seem to have reinvented the wheel with this post.

coach's prior post: Perfect in Sanity, already addressed this issue.

The Fit Foil Foul Fits Fitly

Every academic discipline has its own 'jargon' - similar words that are given a different meaning according to the discipline. So the word 'culture' is used differently by the biologist and the anthropologist. The astronomer speaks of 'space' differently than the architect speaks of 'space'. And each discipline develops its own jargon (or nomenclature).

As for Masonic jargon, the meaning of 'perfect' from coach: "Research shows that the multitude of words [4] most commonly and generically translated to the word 'perfect' reflect more accurately a general meaning of Complete, Mature, Healthy, Sound, and Sane rather than the very often specific and misguided claim of Flawless."

And thanks to coach, I now see the light of the meaning of perfection in Masonry.

In my copy of Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia (1961) under 'perfect' it says, see Ashlar, perfect. And coach gave a further clear and rigorous explanation of the rough and perfect ashlar. So cool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2016 at 10:35am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I seem to have reinvented the wheel with this post.

coach's prior post: Perfect in Sanity, already addressed this issue.

The Fit Foil Foul Fits Fitly

Every academic discipline has its own 'jargon' - similar words that are given a different meaning according to the discipline. So the word 'culture' is used differently by the biologist and the anthropologist. The astronomer speaks of 'space' differently than the architect speaks of 'space'. And each discipline develops its own jargon (or nomenclature).

As for Masonic jargon, the meaning of 'perfect' from coach: "Research shows that the multitude of words [4] most commonly and generically translated to the word 'perfect' reflect more accurately a general meaning of Complete, Mature, Healthy, Sound, and Sane rather than the very often specific and misguided claim of Flawless."

And thanks to coach, I now see the light of the meaning of perfection in Masonry.

In my copy of Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia (1961) under 'perfect' it says, see Ashlar, perfect. And coach gave a further clear and rigorous explanation of the rough and perfect ashlar. So cool.


Thanks. It is most unfortunate that ignorant members assign a subjective and highly biased meaning upon the term "Perfect Ashlar".

If they had taken the time to explore Operative Masonic literature, they would quickly come to grasp and understand that a perfect ashlar is not a flawless ashlar; it's just a suitable ashlar for the builder's use and very likely contains flaws that would not interfere with the end use.

Equally unfortunate are how their ignorance impacts each generation of men coming through.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2016 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".

   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that? It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one. Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 8:29am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".


   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that?


You've never met a combat veteran I take it?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one.


No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.


As I explained to droche in an above thread, the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Adept? - take this objectively but you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 9:27am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".


   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that?


You've never met a combat veteran I take it?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one.


No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.


As I explained to droche in an above thread, the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Adept? - take this objectively but you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.

You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.
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GrimoireA3, 

First of all, I am a Veteran.  I think that settles that...LOL!

You said,
"No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes."

ok, so.. proven, and accepted can not be used in this manner.  It's either proven and factual, or it is accepted and believed.  It can not be both.  There is absolutely NO way to PROVE the quote/statement is factual.  To do so would require you to have been in every "foxhole", in every war, with every front line soldier throughout history, up to and including right now as you are reading this.  Impossible.  Period.  You can BELIEVE whatever you wish.

The origin of the quote is said to be as follows...

Origin[edit]

The origin of the quotation is uncertain.[2] U. S. Military Chaplain William Thomas Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942,[3] though scholars have been unable to find a firsthand witness to the sermon.[4] Other sources credit Lieutenant Colonel Warren J. Clear (or the anonymous sergeant he spoke with there), who was also at Bataan and published the usage in 1942;[5] or Lieutenant Colonel William Casey. The phrase is often attributed to war correspondent Ernie Pyle;[6][7][8][9]however, no such source published prior to Pyle's death is known. It was also quoted by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954, American Legion Program. With slightly different wording, the statement appears much earlier in press reports dating from the end of the First World War, while a similar concept has been sought in Plato's Laws.[2]  

... but again, NO proof, so who knows.

Notable counterexamples[edit]

During the news coverage of his death and subsequent cryonic suspension, Hall of Fame baseball player and fighter pilot Ted Williams was said to be an atheist, by his former teammate Johnny Pesky.[16][17] Richard Tillman, in giving the eulogy for his brother, former NFL player and soldier Pat Tillman, stated: "he's not religious."[18] Tillman's atheism is discussed in a documentary about his life.[19][20] Philip Paulson, plaintiff in several of the lawsuits in the Mount Soledad cross controversy, was an atheist Vietnam combat veteran.[21]

Joe Simpson, author of Touching the Void, addresses the issue in the film adaptation of his nearly fatal climb up the Siula Grande mountain. Referring to the moment when he lay at the bottom of a deep crevasse, dehydrated, alone, and with a broken leg, he states: '"I was totally convinced I was on my own, that no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout Catholic. I'd long since stopped believing in God. I always wondered if things really hit the fan, whether I would, under pressure, turn round and say a few Hail Marys and say 'Get me out of here'. It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and I really do think that when you die, you die, that's it, there's no afterlife."[22]

Several atheist organizations object to the phrase. The Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers has adopted the catch-phrase "Atheists in Foxholes" to emphasize that the original statement is just anaphorismus and not a fact. The over 200 members of this organization publicly display their military service in order to show that there are atheists in foxholes, and on ships, and in planes.[23] The religious convictions of current U.S. military personnel are similar to those of the general American population, though studies suggest that members of the military are slightly less religious.[24] Department of Defense demographics show that "Atheist" is selected as a religious preference (0.55% or less than 1 percent of the total DoD force) more than non-Christian options such as Agnostic (0.12%), Hindu (0.07%), Buddhist (0.38%), Muslim (0.24%), and Jewish (0.33%).[25] James Morrow has been quoted as saying "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes," as the mental state, or decisions, of an extremely frightened and desperate person can hardly be imagined to be more rational than those of a person in a calm state.[26] Due to its opposition to the phrase, the Freedom From Religion Foundation has erected a monument to "Atheists in Foxholes".[27]


Finally, I don't need any further education in order to point out bull when I see it.

 I'm not rationalizing anything.  I do not need to rationalize your belief, or anyone else's for that matter.  You are the one who is attempting (and failing) to rationalize the quote and state it as a fact, when it is not.  You can attend all the MIT lectures you like, but until you remove all of your preconceived notions about things, set your religious beliefs aside, and enter the lecture with a mind that is open to further education, and enlightenment... then I'm afraid that it is MY BELIEF that you are utterly wasting your time.

    Thank you.




Edited by Adept? - April/08/2016 at 10:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 1:21pm
Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.

It is not possible. The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


Edited by BroScubaSteve - April/08/2016 at 1:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2016 at 1:21pm
I don't think the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," like so many other sayings, was meant to be taken so literally. Of course it cannot be proven that every atheist who has experienced combat found God. Being a veteran too, I can see though what is intended by the saying and I never was in combat, but I became more religious as a result of my experiences in the service.

This thread about perfection has produced a lot of thought provoking and meaningful discussions and I don't want to see it degenerate to a point where it will have to be closed because of an argument over a frivolous point, but I can see it heading that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:10am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.


Thank you coach. I would appreciate a list of those logical fallacies I made since I take logic quite seriously any mistake I make can be a learning experience for me (to keep working on my ashlar).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:15am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't think the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," like so many other sayings, was meant to be taken so literally. Of course it cannot be proven that every atheist who has experienced combat found God. Being a veteran too, I can see though what is intended by the saying and I never was in combat, but I became more religious as a result of my experiences in the service.

This thread about perfection has produced a lot of thought provoking and meaningful discussions and I don't want to see it degenerate to a point where it will have to be closed because of an argument over a frivolous point, but I can see it heading that way.


Agreed.

Can a non-Mason have an ashlar to perfect?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:37am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.


Not perfection, but TRUTH can be found in Mathematics since Math requires 'PROOF'.

PHYSICS is not math, but uses mathematics to 'measure', and Physics doesn't care about 'proof' but results. [Please see the Feynman Lectures: The relation of Mathematics to Physics.]

That is an important distinction between Math & Physics, because Mathematics is a search for TRUTH by way of PROOFS, which is why Math is so important to Philosophy.

So Math and Physics (and Engineering) are not the same thing and have different goals to achieve. One is truth, the second might be perfection, but not the perfection define by coach or applied to the ashlar.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.


YES,that is the problem with physics, engineering, architecture - but not with Mathematics. The mathematician will disregard any equation that doesn't have a PROOF. The Physicist is not so fussy.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.


And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.


Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


Seems to happen a lot on this forum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2016 at 5:15pm
Math does not demand nor require 100%. It to is a system of "being close". Take the example of pi. We use 3.14 as a general rule but this is not pi. Being that pi does not end every calculation no matter how far out you go with pi is an approximation and not 100% accurate.
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