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What is Human Nature?

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GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
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    Posted: May/02/2016 at 10:15am
Any philosophical ponderers out there? Or even Masonic perpenders? What's your take on Human Nature? Thanx!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2016 at 10:26am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Any philosophical ponderers out there? Or even Masonic perpenders? What's your take on Human Nature? Thanx!

Just look around you.
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 Just look around you.



*Ahem*  -  And? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2016 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 Just look around you.




*Ahem*  -  And? Wink

and observe it all around you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2016 at 5:43pm
What is a perpender? I know I could look it up but may as well hear your definition so if I decide to discuss, we can both be on the same page.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2016 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What is a perpender? I know I could look it up but may as well hear your definition so if I decide to discuss, we can both be on the same page.

Perpender -- one who is driven by his proclivity to perpend.

Perpend - 1. To reflect on or consider carefully; ponder. 2. To be attentive; reflect. 3. An archaic word for ponder. 4. A large stone that passes through a wall from one side to the other.

(source: Building Perpends, page v) http://www.coach.net/BuildingPerpends.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2016 at 4:57am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 Just look around you.




*Ahem*  -  And? Wink

and observe it all around you.


O.K., I looked around and observed the trees starting to grow leaves; a harbor seal swimming up the Charles River following the herring; a hawk soaring over head; the bushes rustling in the wind; dogs chasing squirrels; in Boston Common a seagull eating some garbage; the down pouring rain washing the gutters clean; and at night the full 'Flower' moon flanked by a bright Jupiter & Mercury with the constellation Orion waning below the Boston skyline being slowly replaced by the summer constellations. So what's human nature?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2016 at 5:01am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What is a perpender? I know I could look it up but may as well hear your definition so if I decide to discuss, we can both be on the same page.


Philosophers ponder and Masons perpend. So I just assumed if there are ponderers there must be perpenders?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2016 at 5:29am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

 Just look around you.




*Ahem*  -  And? Wink

and observe it all around you.


O.K., I looked around and observed the trees starting to grow leaves; a harbor seal swimming up the Charles River following the herring; a hawk soaring over head; the bushes rustling in the wind; dogs chasing squirrels; in Boston Common a seagull eating some garbage; the down pouring rain washing the gutters clean; and at night the full 'Flower' moon flanked by a bright Jupiter & Mercury with the constellation Orion waning below the Boston skyline being slowly replaced by the summer constellations. So what's human nature?


To recognize beginnings.
To recognize movement toward goals.
To recognize lively movements.
To recognize consumption prolongs life.
To recognize natural movements and consequences that benefit.
To recognize things beyond ones grasp and do so as patterns that allude to the eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2016 at 6:39am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:


To recognize beginnings.
To recognize movement toward goals.
To recognize lively movements.
To recognize consumption prolongs life.
To recognize natural movements and consequences that benefit.
To recognize things beyond ones grasp and do so as patterns that allude to the eternal.


'Recognition' - excellent. That is a cognitive function.

So human nature rests on thinking. The mind is not just an abstraction as the Marxists would have us believe - that humans are mere automatons.

Thinking would imply Carl Jung's "Collective Unconscious", I think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2016 at 8:02am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:


To recognize beginnings.
To recognize movement toward goals.
To recognize lively movements.
To recognize consumption prolongs life.
To recognize natural movements and consequences that benefit.
To recognize things beyond ones grasp and do so as patterns that allude to the eternal.


'Recognition' - excellent. That is a cognitive function.

So human nature rests on thinking. The mind is not just an abstraction as the Marxists would have us believe - that humans are mere automatons.

Thinking would imply Carl Jung's "Collective Unconscious", I think?

He thinks therefore he is...
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   He thinks therefore he is...


Yes, let's cogitate over this.

Does thought determine reality or does reality determine thought?
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 Does thought determine reality or does reality determine thought?

I think maybe it's a bit of both.  I believe our view of reality is not reality at all, but merely our perception of it.  Reality is subjective to the observer.  Inevitably however, what you see, hear, and feel taking place around you will effect your thoughts and in some way create your personal perspective of your/our world reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRkDicwjRQs

I won't say I agree with everything in this short video, but it does pose some interesting theories.  If we as human beings did not exist in our conscious state as we do, would reality in the universe be as it is now, or does it only exist the way it does because we are able to consciously perceive it.  Is our conscious view of reality actually real, or merely an illusion created by our own minds?    

"All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves."
~ Bill Hicks~




Edited by Adept? - May/03/2016 at 10:00am
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:




Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 Does thought determine reality or does reality determine thought?


I think maybe it's a bit of both.  I believe our view of reality is not reality at all, but merely our perception of it.  Reality is subjective to the observer.  Inevitably however, what you see, hear, and feel taking place around you will effect your thoughts and in some way create your personal perspective of your/our world reality.

<h1 ="yt="" watch-title-container"="" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; display: table-cell; vertical-align: top; width: 824px; color: rgb34, 34, 34; line-height: normal; word-wrap: break-word; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; -: initial; -attachment: initial; -size: initial; -origin: initial; -clip: initial; -: initial; -repeat: initial;"><span id="eow-title" ="watch-title="" "="" dir="ltr" title="the Illusion of Reality ~ consciousness & quantum theory" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; border--source: initial; border--slice: initial; border--width: initial; border--outset: initial; border--repeat: initial; -: initial; -attachment: initial; : transparent; -size: initial; -origin: initial; -clip: initial; -: initial; -repeat: initial;"><span style="color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 1.4;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRkDicwjRQs

</span><div style="color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 16.8px;">I won't say I agree with everything in this short video, but it does pose some interesting theories.  If we as human beings did not exist in our conscious state as we do, would reality in the universe be as it is now, or does it only exist the way it does because we are able to consciously perceive it.  Is our conscious view of reality actually real, or merely an illusion created by our own minds?    <div style="color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 16.8px;">
<div style="color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 16.8px;"><span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17px;">"All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves."</span><br style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17px;"><span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17px;">~ Bill Hicks~</span></span></h1><h1 ="yt="" watch-title-container"="" style="font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; color: rgb34, 34, 34; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 13px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; display: table-cell; vertical-align: top; width: 824px; line-height: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -: initial; -attachment: initial; -size: initial; -origin: initial; -clip: initial; -: initial; -repeat: initial;">
</h1>



Hi Adept?,

Thanks. Your reply is food for thought.

Consider this verse from the Holy Book of Law - Romans 12:2

2"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Also, your choice of videos is good. I have seen 'The Illusion of Reality' before. But it is a subject that has been bandied about by hard core physicists since the 1927 Copenhagen Conference on quantum mechanics with the Bohr/Einstein debates.

In 1927 Neils Bohr told Albert Einstein that 'atoms are not things' - they are wavelengths, i.e. frequencies. Now professional physicist use the term 'wavelength' instead of the high school level 'atom'.

That video was good, but a misunderstanding of the subatomic world with its relation to the atomic world is the substance of new age spirituality or cults.

Nanotechnology is based on the manipulation of molecules, i.e two or more atoms/wave lengths joined together (matter). Molecules are measured in nanometers.
The subatomic level is measured in Fermi's. This is the nether world of frequencies and vibration found in quantum mechanics and discussed in that video: The Illusion of Reality.

Anything on the Fermi level is ephemeral and cannot, as yet, be manipulated. That manipulation must be done on the Nano meter level.

Reality as an illusion is accepted in Philosophy. Not that reality is fake but 'temporary' relative to our life span/perception. Death may not be real, but Entropy - the Second Law of Thermodynamics - happens. You and all matter have finite life spans and will eventually wind down and stop: cease to exist. That is a change that might not be death, but you will cease to exist because of Entropy - which gives each body of matter a finite time to exist (and that is the illusion talked about by philosophers, physicists, theologians, and possibly Masons?).
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@Adept?,

P.S.

A very good layman's explanation on quantum theory can be found in this book: The Dancing Wu Li Masters (1979) by Gary Zukav,

and

a book on quantum based spirituality:

BE HERE NOW (1971) by Ram Dass, aka Richard Alpert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2016 at 9:32am
Human nature: It is what it is and it will be what it will be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2016 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Human nature: It is what it is and it will be what it will be.



Which is what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2016 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.


As stated in 1927 by Neils Bohr during his debate with Albert Einstein regarding quantum physics.


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.


Sounds like the 'Collective Unconscious' of psychiatrist Dr. Carl Jung?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves.


Entropy, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, is in odds with this bit of metaphysical speculation?

P.S. I know these are not Adept? quotes, but from his excellent response.

SO? - what is Human Nature??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2016 at 11:13am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

SO? - what is Human Nature??

To seek and ask questions to get responses from other to further one's perpendings.
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

SO? - what is Human Nature??

To seek and ask questions to get responses from other to further one's perpendings.


Coach - that seems more like a purpose in life rather than human nature?

Though it is an excellent purpose in life. A 'Life of the Mind' is the scholar's purpose in life. But it seems to be a purpose without function (kind of like faith with out works?).

Also coach, thanks for your contributions - you seem to be the only one keeping this thread going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2016 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

SO? - what is Human Nature??

To seek and ask questions to get responses from other to further one's perpendings.


Coach - that seems more like a purpose in life rather than human nature?

They seem to not be mutually exclusive when it comes to humans.

Quote Though it is an excellent purpose in life. A 'Life of the Mind' is the scholar's purpose in life. But it seems to be a purpose without function (kind of like faith with out works?).

And yet it still seems to be the function of humans.
Quote Also coach, thanks for your contributions - you seem to be the only one keeping this thread going.

Yep. Must be my nature.

Edited by coach - May/06/2016 at 7:55pm
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Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinkingfeeling, and acting—which humans tend to have naturally, independently of the influence of culture. The questions of what these characteristics are, how fixed they are, and what causes them are amongst the oldest and most important questions in philosophy and science. These questions have particularly important implications in ethics,politics, and theology. This is partly because human nature can be regarded as both a source of norms of conduct or ways of life, as well as presenting obstacles or constraints on living a good life. The complex implications of such questions are also dealt with in art and literature, while the multiple branches of the humanities together form an important domain of inquiry into human nature and into the question of what it is to be human.

The branches of contemporary science associated with the study of human nature include anthropologysociologysociobiology, and psychology, particularly evolutionary psychology, which studies sexual selection in human evolution, as well as developmental psychology. The "nature versus nurture" debate is a broadly inclusive and well-known instance of a discussion about human nature in the natural sciences.


Bamo!  wikipedia!  LOL!  wish I'd thought of that earlier.  End of discussion.  Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2016 at 5:41am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Bamo!  wikipedia!  LOL!  wish I'd thought of that earlier.  End of discussion.


I wish it were as simple as that. 'Wikipedia' is not definitive. 'Wiki' is good for pop culture and solving barroom arguments and for a 'general' place to start one's research. But it is a specious source of information not taken seriously by the Historian (along with encyclopedias) and, according to Historiography, unworthy of citation.

Vague and nebulous definitions from anonymous and questionable public sources do not an end of discussion make.

So, Adept2 you possibly provided an outline of an individual's nature, but not human nature.

Your quote from a previous answer above was spot on.

So was is human nature? Coach seems to be combining human two attributes: purpose and curiosity. What is your definition of human nature?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2016 at 9:25am
So, is human nature achievement oriented??
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So, is human nature achievement oriented??

It is when that achievement will allow you to continue to swim in the gene pool, otherwise you will qualify for the Darwin Awards.
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So, is human nature achievement oriented??

It is when that achievement will allow you to continue to swim in the gene pool, otherwise you will qualify for the Darwin Awards.


Hi coach,

Sorry for appearing dense but I do not grasp your meaning. I respectfully request clarification.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 5:12am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

So, is human nature achievement oriented??

It is when that achievement will allow you to continue to swim in the gene pool, otherwise you will qualify for the Darwin Awards.


Hi coach,

Sorry for appearing dense but I do not grasp your meaning. I respectfully request clarification.

You must breed and do so successfully enough for your offspring to do the same or you and your lineage go away. That's quite an achievement.


Quote P.S. I am rereading The Craft Unmasked, and just sent away for Building Freemen #8.

Awesome! Another head spinner!

Edited by coach - May/10/2016 at 5:15am
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You must breed and do so successfully enough for your offspring to do the same or you and your lineage go away. That's quite an achievement.


O.K. gotcha. In Genetics, Biology, & Physical Anthropology we call that being 'successful'.



Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Awesome! Another head spinner!


I do plan on purchasing your entire set of building better men series. I found THE CRAFT UNMASKED is in the Library of Congress. Good for You!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 10:04am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You must breed and do so successfully enough for your offspring to do the same or you and your lineage go away. That's quite an achievement.


O.K. gotcha. In Genetics, Biology, & Physical Anthropology we call that being 'successful'.



Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Awesome! Another head spinner!


I do plan on purchasing your entire set of building better men series. I found THE CRAFT UNMASKED is in the Library of Congress. Good for You!

Interesting... Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You must breed and do so successfully enough for your offspring to do the same or you and your lineage go away. That's quite an achievement.


O.K. gotcha. In Genetics, Biology, & Physical Anthropology we call that being 'successful'.



Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Awesome! Another head spinner!


I do plan on purchasing your entire set of building better men series. I found THE CRAFT UNMASKED is in the Library of Congress. Good for You!

Interesting... Thanks!


CORRECTION! Building Boaz is in the Library of Congress. Sorry for that glaring error.

Go to Google Books, John S. Nagy, click on Building Boaz, click on Libraries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2016 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

CORRECTION! Building Boaz is in the Library of Congress. Sorry for that glaring error.

Go to Google Books, John S. Nagy, click on Building Boaz, click on Libraries.


Okay, that makes more sense.
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Human nature?  I heard once that every person, deep down inside, is waiting for the end of the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 5:16am
Originally posted by TyleBrutus TyleBrutus wrote:

Human nature?  I heard once that every person, deep down inside, is waiting for the end of the world.


Hi TyleBrutus,

Thank you for that interesting view. I am unfamiliar with any psychologist or Cultural Anthropologist espousing an 'apocalyptic' view of human nature, and you might have come across something unique.

The closest, I think, would be psychiatrist Carl Jung and his 'Collective Unconscious'. But that theory does not entail any innate apocalyptic behavior pattern within human nature.

"Waiting for the end of the world" psyche, if it exists, might explain the rise of religion or of certain religions.

Nice answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 6:44am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
Hi TyleBrutus,

 I am unfamiliar with any psychologist or Cultural Anthropologist espousing an 'apocalyptic' view of human nature, and you might have come across something unique.

"Waiting for the end of the world" psyche, if it exists, might explain the rise of religion or of certain religions.

Nice answer.

You can't be serious...  Ok, here is a link to many examples of apocalyptic philosophies.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypticism  You will please take notice that they are mostly religious philosophies and theories.  Fortunately for us, religion as a whole, is on a steady decline, as it has been for many years.  ClapBig smileThumbs Up


Edited by Adept? - May/12/2016 at 8:01am
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2016 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:



You can't be serious...  Ok, here is a link to many examples of apocalyptic philosophies.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypticism


Hi Adept?,

Thanks for that link. Yet I am aware that Apocalypticism has been frequently discussed amongst theologians and philosophers, since time immemorial.

Please note that I specifically mentioned psychology/psychiatry and Cultural Anthropology: these two disciplines make a specialty of scientifically analyzing 'human nature'. As scientific as possible that is.



 
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

You will please take notice that they are mostly religious philosophies and theories.


Yes, exactly. Good for you. Philosophy & theology don't really specialize in 'human nature'. I think you called it yourself.


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Fortunately for us, religion as a whole, is on a steady decline, as it has been for many years.  


Yes, religion has been on the decline for several decades. The reason is 'secular humanism' (God without religion). It seems science and education and constant food supply reduces the need for religion with a mild belief in God.

I learned about secular humanism in 1980 in my Philosophy course on Existentialism. People can still be decent, moral, law abiding, and follow the Golden Rule without religion, and that is the basis of Secular Humanism. It is not atheism, because God is still believed in.

BUT religion still serves a purpose for some people, and you can't take that away from them.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


 People can still be decent, moral, law abiding, and follow the Golden Rule without religion, and that is the basis of Secular Humanism. It is not atheism, because God is still believed in.

BUT religion still serves a purpose for some people, and you can't take that away from them.

EXACTLY!  You don't even need "still" in the statement.  

No need to explain secular humanism to me, thank you.  I understand it very well.  I would go no further than the belief of cold Deism.  (the belief that a supreme source could be present, however unlikely, but not one that meddles in the affairs of life on this planet, or any other.)

Indeed, religion serves a purpose.  That purpose is evil.  In the natural world, good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things.  If you want to make good people do evil things, it just takes a little religion.  That's not to say that non-religious people don't do evil things... of course they do, but looking at the history of the world, there has been more violence and bloodshed because of religion, than any other cause.  Just read the bible... objectively read it, don't interpret it your own way, read the words that are on the page.  Read what it actually says.  There are plenty of examples throughout history, but one need look no further than the events of World war 2, and the persecution, and slaughter of the Jewish people by catholic fascists, and the continued persecution by the catholic church all the way up to the 1960's.  Not to mention the events of September 11th 2001, and the war that followed, and is still taking place to this day, with no sign of an end in sight.  My point is... otherwise good people, that would never otherwise do so, will commit awful act of violence and atrocities when they believe that they have divine permission, and "god" is on their side.  It's bronze age thinking, and its bad for the whole of humanity.

To take it one step further, people of the same basic beliefs can't even leave each other alone.  First with the catholics vs the protestant, and then it breaks down even further to universalist vs congregationalist, and methodist vs baptist, and so on and so on... it's a bunch of silly nonsense is all it is...   It's telling someone that they are playing with their imaginary friend wrong, and that you know how to do it better...<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">but it gets people killed.</span>

As far as "taking it away from them"  How could I, or anyone else do such a thing?  It is impossible for me to take away anyone's personal beliefs.  All I would ask is that they start paying their taxes, and stop with the evangelism, and the door to door visits attempting to spread their personal beliefs to others.  If they sincerely believe in whatever they're preaching, then why are they not satisfied with their own beliefs?  Why do they need to attempt to make everyone else believe it too?  Religion makes some extraordinary claims without providing even ordinary evidence to support their claims.  I maintain that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to back up those claims.  Blind faith is the voluntary suspension of your critical faculties.  It is to take that which we do not understand, and fill it in with "god did it" rather than working to understand, and further human education and understanding of the natural world.  Let us not forget that it was the religious community that persecuted, captured, tortured and killed men of science for their experiments, and their claims, because they went against the teachings of the church.  Only to find out later that their claims were true, and could be proven to be so over and over again.  

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point clear.  
 
P.S. teaching children fairy tales from religion before they reach the age of reason and critical thinking should be considered a form of child abuse. it is a direct assault on an unformed mind unable to think rationally. a mind that still believes in such nonsensical stories as Santa Claus the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Edited by Adept? - May/12/2016 at 5:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2016 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

I would go no further than the belief of cold Deism.  (the belief that a supreme source could be present, however unlikely, but not one that meddles in the affairs of life on this planet, or any other.)


That's interesting. Because Deism is a religion.

Secular humanism has God without the religion, but not Deism.

The belief in a cosmological God, as opposed to a personal God, is the basis of Deism, yet Deism is still a religion. (Christianity believes in a personal God).

The Jeffersonian Bible takes a Deistic and Unitarian view towards God as Thomas Jefferson rewrote the New Testament with Christ as a man (without the miracles or Jesus as divine).

Just to reiterate (to demonstrate I also understand) that Deism is the belief that God exists, created man and the universe, and has left the scene, leaving man to his own devices. God still exists, but he is very far away in another dimension or something. So a Deist is not an atheist. That validates Deism as a belief system (religion).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2016 at 10:44am
Deism: "The belief that God has created the universe but remains apart from it and permits his creation to administer itself through natural laws. Deism thus rejects the supernatural aspects of religion, such as belief in revelation in the Bible, and stresses the importance of ethical conduct."

Secular humanism: "The philosophy or life stance of secular humanism (alternatively known by some adherents as Humanism, specifically with a capital H to distinguish it from other forms of humanism) embraces human reason, ethics, and philosophical naturalism while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition as the bases of morality and decision making.[1][2][3][4]

Secular humanism posits that human beings are capable of being ethical and moral without religion or a god. It does not, however, assume that humans are either inherently evil or innately good, nor does it present humans as being superior to nature. Rather, the humanist life stance emphasizes the unique responsibility facing humanity and the ethical consequences of human decisions. Fundamental to the concept of secular humanism is the strongly held viewpoint that ideology—be it religious or political—must be thoroughly examined by each individual and not simply accepted or rejected on faith. Along with this, an essential part of secular humanism is a continually adapting search for truth, primarily through science and philosophy."

Secular humanists therefore do not necessarily believe in God at all. In fact I think you will find that most are anti-theist, or at the very least agnostic.

I said that I would go no further than the beliefs of cold deism. I did not say that I am one. I do however disagree with your assertion that it is a religion. A belief, and ideology for sure, but a religion...? Certainly not. I've seen Christian churches, Jewish synagogues, Muslim mosques, Jehovah's witness halls, Mormon temples, Hindu temples, Buddhist temples...but never in my 32 years have I ever seen a Deist church or holy house. To label deism a religion is to do it a great disservice. It is by definition above...expressly NOT a religion. "Deism thus rejects the supernatural aspects of religion, such as belief in revelation in the Bible, and stresses the importance of ethical conduct."

We've strayed off topic once again, so in the interest of the topic, I'll say this. Human nature is to question. To question our very existence, and the possible, and more importantly provable origin of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2016 at 5:30am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Human nature is to question. To question our very existence, and the possible, and more importantly provable origin of it.


"Human nature is to question."

That's good. That also implies a cognitive function - thinking, or more specific, curiosity.

Does that also imply, to question authority? Or is that another think altogether?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2016 at 2:04pm
O.K., how about this 13th century view of human nature:

"Man, says St. Thomas Aquinas [1225 - 1274], is naturally a social and political animal. By giving to human beings a nature which requires the co-operation of other human beings for its welfare, God ordained man for society, and thus it is His will that princes should govern with a view to the public welfare."

So is it human nature to be gregarious?


P.S. It was said that St. Thomas Aquinas was very influenced by Moses Maimonides(aka RamBam).
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