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June 24th Masonic Day Public Celebrations?

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    Posted: June/20/2016 at 10:55am
Where in the Boston area can I observe any public June 24th 'John the Baptist' Masonic Day festivities - if any?  Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2016 at 11:15am
Check the Grand lodge of Mass. Website. There may be info there.

Edited by Adept? - June/20/2016 at 11:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2016 at 5:34pm
You might also check with the local Catholic Churches too.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sec'yBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2016 at 5:50pm
Here in St. Louis, a Mason at a Catholic Church function will put the Bishop in a tail spin.  Just sayin!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2016 at 8:30pm
I have never heard of any events for "John the Baptist Day" either by the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts or any individual Masonic Lodges in Massachusetts. The Massachusetts Grand Lodge honors Saint John the Evangelist every year on December 27 with the "Feast of Saint John" held at Grand Lodge, 186 Tremont St. in Boston. This is when all Grand Lodge officers are installed for the coming year. This event is not open to the public.

Years ago I attended a breakfast on June 26 at a Lodge in Maine in honor John the Baptist. As I recall, it was Masons only but I could be mistaken, it was so long ago, I don't remember. You might want to check with that Grand Lodge to see if there are any events open to the public. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2016 at 6:40am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

You might also check with the local Catholic Churches too.  


Hi edwmax,

I am aggravated enough already with the Church over Vatican II; Novus Ordo (i.e. the New Mass); the 'no haven' policy; and the tolerated homosexual infiltration of the Catholic Church, that my blood boils whenever I discuss contentious issues of Church policies that put me thisclose to being excommunicated.

I have already seen devout Catholics walk out in the middle of Mass (something that is never done) over 'orands' and other minor alterations to centuries old procedure to risk a violent argument with an ordained Priest over something every Catholic knows is forbidden (Freemasonry).

Since I refuse to be indoctrinated or brainwashed by anything or anybody, I would rather research using primary sources, as per my training in historiography. So I would rather ask real Freemasons questions rather than an obvious biased source, such as a Diocese Priest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2016 at 6:42am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I have never heard of any events for "John the Baptist Day" either by the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts or any individual Masonic Lodges in Massachusetts. The Massachusetts Grand Lodge honors Saint John the Evangelist every year on December 27 with the "Feast of Saint John" held at Grand Lodge, 186 Tremont St. in Boston. This is when all Grand Lodge officers are installed for the coming year. This event is not open to the public.
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Years ago I attended a breakfast on June 26 at a Lodge in Maine in honor John the Baptist. As I recall, it was Masons only but I could be mistaken, it was so long ago, I don't remember. You might want to check with that Grand Lodge to see if there are any events open to the public. </span>


Thank you Droche.

That was the answer I was looking for. Cool!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2016 at 8:05am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

You might also check with the local Catholic Churches too.  


Hi edwmax,

I am aggravated enough already with the Church over Vatican II; Novus Ordo (i.e. the New Mass); the 'no haven' policy; and the tolerated homosexual infiltration of the Catholic Church, that my blood boils whenever I discuss contentious issues of Church policies that put me thisclose to being excommunicated.

I have already seen devout Catholics walk out in the middle of Mass (something that is never done) over 'orands' and other minor alterations to centuries old procedure to risk a violent argument with an ordained Priest over something every Catholic knows is forbidden (Freemasonry).

Since I refuse to be indoctrinated or brainwashed by anything or anybody, I would rather research using primary sources, as per my training in historiography. So I would rather ask real Freemasons questions rather than an obvious biased source, such as a Diocese Priest.


I suggested checking with the Church as this is a Christian Church holiday ... too.   Very few Masonic Lodges in the US observe or hold any festivities on that day.  ...  St John the Baptist festive boards are more likely to be held in England, Ireland, Scotland and Europe


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2016 at 8:41am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


I suggested checking with the Church as this is a Christian Church holiday ... too.   Very few Masonic Lodges in the US observe or hold any festivities on that day.  ...  St John the Baptist festive boards are more likely to be held in England, Ireland, Scotland and Europe.



I misunderstood. I was interested in Masonic observations. My response was an explanation not a criticism as why I avoided asking a Catholic Priest about a Masonic activity. Thanks for your suggestion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2016 at 6:38pm
Grimoire, don't take this wrong, I am not trying to criticize you or pass judgement on you, I am just curious about where you stand. In your previous post today, you mentioned that you were more or less upset (to put it mildly- I think you said it "makes your blood boil,") over changes to centuries old Catholic practices. The Roman Catholic policies objecting to Freemasonry are also centuries old, but you do not seem to agree with that traditional policy- or am I wrong? Do you mind telling us your views on the Vatican's stance on Freemasonry? Maybe you have previously but I have forgotten.

 
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



Hi edwmax,

I am aggravated enough already with the Church over Vatican II; Novus Ordo (i.e. the New Mass); the 'no haven' policy; and the tolerated homosexual infiltration of the Catholic Church, that my blood boils whenever I discuss contentious issues of Church policies that put me thisclose to being excommunicated.

I have already seen devout Catholics walk out in the middle of Mass (something that is never done) over 'orands' and other minor alterations to centuries old procedure to risk a violent argument with an ordained Priest over something every Catholic knows is forbidden (Freemasonry).

Since I refuse to be indoctrinated or brainwashed by anything or anybody, I would rather research using primary sources, as per my training in historiography. So I would rather ask real Freemasons questions rather than an obvious biased source, such as a Diocese Priest.

Where to begin...?  I could go in a dozen different directions with this but, having read your posts and dealt with you before, I'll just say this.  If you truly refused to be indoctrinated, or brainwashed; you wouldn't be a catholic, and you wouldn't take any issue at all with the issues within catholicism that you described above that "make your blood boil"  In becoming a catholic, whether you were raised as a child to be one, or you made the conscious decision to become one as an adult (unlikely... who would do such a thing..) you allowed yourself to be indoctrinated into that particular mythology.  At least if you were raised catholic from childhood you could blame your parents for it.  

I don't know what answers you seek, but I can assure you that they do not lay within freemasonry, nor any other theological organization.  There is absolutely zero evidence for any of the claims made by the various and significantly numerous theologies around the world.  The theologies of ancient societies are now called what they truly are... mythology.  In time, the theologies that exist today that are unfortunately so devoutly clung to by so many, will also be called what they are... mere mythology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2016 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

In your previous post today, you mentioned that you were more or less upset (to put it mildly- I think you said it "makes your blood boil,") over changes to centuries old Catholic practices. The Roman Catholic policies objecting to Freemasonry are also centuries old, but you do not seem to agree with that traditional policy- or am I wrong? 


Thanks for pointing that out droche, I missed that altogether...  contradiction once again...  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2016 at 8:50am
The purpose of my post was not to point out a contradiction in Grimoire's thinking or put him on the spot. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post. I am genuinely curious about his opinion. From what I can see this is an apparent contradiction but everyone has different opinions and so long as they can support them with at least some rationale there's no contradictions. A couple of years ago a person at my church I consider to be a left-wing extremist told me, "Sometimes I think you're a liberal, sometimes I think you're a conservative, I haven't been able to figure you out." So, to my mind, its OK to have contradicting opinions. Nothing ever fits into a neat little box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2016 at 9:05am
To be clear too, I am not anti-Catholic, my grandmother was a founding member of three Catholic churches here in Worcester. I respect the Roman Catholic Church's right to determine their policies but I think its very sad that it has its policy toward Freemasonry and it is my fervent hope that the two can someday come to a reconciliation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/23/2016 at 11:50am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

over changes to centuries old Catholic practices. The Roman Catholic policies objecting to Freemasonry are also centuries old, but you do not seem to agree with that traditional policy- or am I wrong? Do you mind telling us your views on the Vatican's stance on Freemasonry? Maybe you have previously but I have forgotten.



Hi droche,

Yes, I was unintentionally vague in my statement; the centuries old Catholic practices I mentioned referred to the Mass and not to Vatican political policy. My problem with the Church has to do with its ecclesiastical practices, such as Vatican II and 'novus ordo'(the new mass), which explains why I see Catholics walking out in the middle of a service (again, something which is simply not done). And why the Catholic church is currently enjoying a 13% turnout rate. The internal Vatican bureaucracy is also a problem since it does not follow its own Catholic Catechism (something we had to memorize sections of in Catholic school)such as ordaining homosexuals which the catechism forbids.

But I do not understand the Vatican's attitude against Freemasonry. There are over seventeen papal pronouncements against the Craft beginning in 1738?? The Catholic Encyclopedia mentions Freemasonry as a world wide organization with anti-religious tendencies, undermines governments, and ignores authority. I have not come across this in any of my own research these past three years.

The Jewish Encyclopedia claims that the anti-semites maintain that Freemasonry is a Jewish construct using Jewish terms and philosophy and Kabalah and Torah (seven laws of Noah for example)with Talmudic views and that Masonry is run by several Jews at its top levels. Again, I have not discovered any evidence of an overt Jewish influence over Freemasonry that cannot be derived from the Old Testament.

In my opinion the Vatican is a bit paranoid towards Freemasonry that is obsolete if it ever was valid.

While Catholic practices may be sketchy, I do feel that Catholic theology is sound and Catholic history is incredibly informative - which is why I hesitate to break away from the Church altogether. But the attitude of the Vatican towards 'the Craft' I do not fully understand.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/23/2016 at 11:55am
Adept?,

I don't have the time left on this public computer at this moment for an in depth answer. But let me say this - you need to learn the difference between a 'contradiction' and a 'paradox'. Then you will improve as an exegete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/23/2016 at 12:56pm
A paradox is a statement that, despite apparently sound reasoning from true premises, leads to a self-contradictory or a logically unacceptable conclusion.

So, by its very definition, a paradox is a self contradiction.

However, your statements have a strong tendency toward a serious lack of sound reasoning, true premise, or logically acceptable conclusions.

Anything else?   

At this point Grim., I'm being intentionally antagonistic. I find you mildly entertaining, slightly annoying,...and nothing more.

Edited by Adept? - June/23/2016 at 1:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/23/2016 at 2:57pm
Thank you for answering my question Grimoire. I think yours and my views about the Vatican's stance towards Freemasonry is pretty identical. I can see the Church having disagreements, but I cannot understand its downright hostility and condemnation of the Craft. To be sure, there were and are bodies, that called themselves Masonic, but are really not, such as the Propaganda Due Lodge in Italy, that have been hostile to the Catholic Church, but the Church has to know  that Regular and Duly Constituted Masonry has nothing to do with these bodies and bears no hostility or ill will to the Roman Catholic Church. I don't understand their thinking on this matter either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2016 at 5:52am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

A paradox is a statement that, despite apparently sound reasoning from true premises, leads to a self-contradictory or a logically unacceptable conclusion.


Absolutely not!!

A paradox appears to be a contradiction, but has a solution. Most riddles are paradoxes.

A contradiction has no solution, it negates itself.

Paradoxes can be solved, but contradictions cannot be solved.

How did Sherlock Holmes approach a problem? He removed the contradictions from a crime problem to form a paradox. Then he solved the paradox.


And you also need to distinguish the difference between 'indoctrination' and 'education'. You are throwing around the word 'indoctrinate' out of context.

And Wikipedia is ascholarly, stop using it.

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1: If you don't care for Wikipedia's definition because you disagree with it..., try Merriam Webster's. The same can be found there, along with a couple of other definitions worded slightly different.

2: YOU chose to use the word indoctrinated, I merely quoted you, and piggybacked on your statement.

3: I'm officially board with you now. I'll no longer be responding to any of your posts. You are the epitome of a waste of my time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2016 at 7:35am
Oh, by the way... "ascholarly" ... is not even a word.   LOL!

Edited by Adept? - June/25/2016 at 7:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2016 at 8:52am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

 The theologies of ancient societies are now called what they truly are... mythology.  In time, the theologies that exist today that are unfortunately so devoutly clung to by so many, will also be called what they are... mere mythology.


Adept?,

By your line of reasoning, that would also make Gnosticism a myth; Kabbalah a myth; Deism a myth; Docetism a myth; the Great Architect of the Universe a myth; the Demiurge a myth; Hiram Abiff a myth; Isis, Horus, and Osiris a myth; and every and all belief systems a myth?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2016 at 12:37pm
I have never heard theologies of ancient societies, taken as a whole, called "myths." Most, if not all, of them, along with current ones use myths  to get their teachings across, but to call an entire religion or theology a myth? I've never heard of it. Can anyone cite a source where this is so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2016 at 3:22am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I have never heard theologies of ancient societies, taken as a whole, called "myths." Most, if not all, of them, along with current ones use myths  to get their teachings across, but to call an entire religion or theology a myth? I've never heard of it. Can anyone cite a source where this is so?

Egyptian mythology, Greek mythology, Roman mythology, Norse mythology....you know what... here, this is just way easier.


Keep in mind that mythologies were once held by their respective societies as legitimate doctrines, and religious beliefs.  Just like the religions of today, as I stated in my earlier post.

If you want to know more about one of the worlds current mythologies, (and a little about some ancient ones by comparison) watch the video below.  Enjoy Big smileWink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjnT7s3CDWE

For some reason the hyperlink to the video wasn't working, but if you copy and past it into your browser you can get there from here.  LOL  


Edited by Adept? - June/30/2016 at 3:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2016 at 7:08am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I have never heard theologies of ancient societies, taken as a whole, called "myths." Most, if not all, of them, along with current ones use myths  to get their teachings across, but to call an entire religion or theology a myth? I've never heard of it. Can anyone cite a source where this is so?


Referring to any religion, theology, or belief system as a myth is an intentional disparagement. Usually part of the atheist's argument against God.

All myths and legends contain a kernel of truth and/or were used for teaching purposes to pass down information from one generation to the next. Religion serves a different purpose than myth, and some religions contain a myth as a story within a story to make a point.

Five years ago the government of Haiti officially recognized Voodoo as a religion - it is not mythology or a cult anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2016 at 9:03am
The bible is a collection of works approved by Roman Empire after being debated 400 years after Christ died. Were they working from Myths or Truths?

I'm not debating the validity of Christianity or Catholicism that originated from a Secular Power "creating" ecclesiastical  power (Papacy)

I'm defending the term Myth that in my opinion has a double meaning in today's world. We use words in their traditional sense and no way disparage any religion to use the word "myth" being synonymous with "fake."




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2016 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:


I'm defending the term Myth that in my opinion has a double meaning in today's world. We use words in their traditional sense and no way disparage any religion to use the word "myth" being synonymous with "fake."



myth: noun \ˈmith\

Popularity: Top 1% of lookups

Simple Definition of myth: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true

: a story that was told in an ancient culture to explain a practice, belief, or natural occurrence

: such stories as a group

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary





Full Definition of myth
1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory
2
a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs>
b : an unfounded or false notion
3
: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4
: the whole body of myths
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2016 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

The bible is a collection of works approved by Roman Empire after being debated 400 years after Christ died. Were they working from Myths or Truths?

NO.  The Great Medieval Debates were 'debated' regarding the existance & attributes of God for 400+ years, the Aristotalean atheists vs. the Rabbinical scholars, Christians, and Mohammedian theists  - today's  'Bible' used by the Roman Catholic Church was put together out of hundreds of books with the Council of Trent and the Council of Florence.  All other books and information regarding 'CHRISTIANITY' is preserved in the Vatican Library.  And whether you like it or not, the Catholic Bible was reinterpreted and edited by the Protestants into a dozen other versions.  The Roman Empire (i.e. pagans) had nothing to do with the the Catholic Bible.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

I'm not debating the validity of Christianity or Catholicism that originated from a Secular Power "creating" ecclesiastical  power (Papacy)

The 'Papacy' was created by Jesus Christ himself when he presented the keys of the kingdom to Peter, the first Pope.  Was Jesus a 'secular power'??  Even if you believe Jesus was  not divine [as in the Unitarians or Islam], he was never ever a secular power.  It also might be true that Jesus [i.e. Joshu -'God saves'] never existed.  Again, what secular power created Catholicism??  The Catholic Church began with Christ.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

I'm defending the term Myth that in my opinion has a double meaning in today's world. We use words in their traditional sense and no way disparage any religion to use the word "myth" being synonymous with "fake."

So does that mean that:  The Great Architect of the Universe, Tubal-Cain, Hiram Abiff, Horus-Isis-Osiris are also FAKE???  Don't defend anything "in your opinion" - defend according to accepted scholarly research that has been tested by both peer review and critical review.

Double meaning?  Do you have a grasp of semantics?  Do you know the difference between Formal English and Informal English?  Do you know what a 'trope' is??  Really sounds like you don't!!

Calling any religion a 'myth' is the argument of the atheist.  Myth and Religion are two totally separate things.  Not all ancient religions are called myths: Zororastrianism is not de"my brother"ted as a myth; the semetic religions of Baal or Dagon have not been reduced to myth status; Japanese Shintoism (one of the worlds most ancient religions) has not been called a 'myth'.  Why is that??

There is a discipline taught at college where you can earn your Ph.D. (Doctorate in Philosophy) called: COMPARATIVE RELIGION.  And I strongly suggest any and all FREEMASONS take a course or two in comparative religion instead of guessing at the definition of theological based concepts, or relying on Wikipedia, which professional Historians disdain, and thus make Good Men Better (or Better Men Better).



Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2016 at 2:34pm
Any discussion of religion in a Masonic Forum leads to problems. I did not ask the question to debate religion or the definition of "myth." I had never heard of any religion, taken as a whole described as a "myth" and was wondering if there was anything scholarly or authoritative to support that. Greek Mythology, Roman Mythology, Egyptyian Mythology, what have you, are not religions per se. They are stories that use religion or are heavily laden with religion, but they are not religions. My guess is there is no authoritative source that would term any religion, in and of itself as a "myth."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2016 at 2:59pm
Yes, it helps to define myth. The definition of "myth" I am using is a story that  is certainly not true, such as the Greek God Atlas holds up the world. That, and many other stories in the ancient Greek religion are myths, but that does not make the Greek religion in its entirety a myth.

The definition of "legend" I use is a story based on something that is true but with the passage of time, elements of untruth have been spun into it such that many people believe the true as well as the untrue elements. An example would be George Washington and the cherry tree. George Washington certainly existed but him cutting down a cherry tree and then telling his father he did it because he could not tell a lie is almost certainly not true. That is a legend. Religions also use legends quite heavily but that doe not mean everything about them is untrue.

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