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Define SOUL? Do only humans have one?

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GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
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    Posted: September/09/2016 at 6:23am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

The only other Boston area Mason I'm familiar with on this forum is Windriver, but I'm game after I retire on Nov. 4.


Cambridge mason is also local, but maybe all of New England to include Adept?

I am going to start a new thread with a meeting suggestion so as not to veer off topic again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:56pm
The only other Boston area Mason I'm familiar with on this forum is Windriver, but I'm game after I retire on Nov. 4.
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Not speaking for ga.mason, but I enjoyed Firing Line. There was more clarity to it than these threads about the soul and Idols of the Theater.


Yes, absolutely correct. There are many advantages in face to face discussions, such as fewer misinterpretations.

Which brings up an idea I've been toying with - how does a meeting of Boston area Masons of this forum with me in front of the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street and take the tour of the building together that they offer (M, W, F, 10am - 4pm)?

Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/08/2016 at 4:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 1:26pm
Not speaking for ga.mason, but I enjoyed Firing Line. There was more clarity to it than these threads about the soul and Idols of the Theater.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:34am
Originally posted by ga.mason ga.mason wrote:

There is nothing more amusing than watching so called educated intellectuals, banter back and forth. All the fancy words and isms' cast about, and what have we learned....nothing. It must be what second and third graders sound like on the playground at private schools. Please carry on though, the entertainment value is priceless.


Hi ga.mason,

You would really enjoy William F. Buckley's FIRING LINE program then. Half the battle of a University education is definitions and concepts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote ga.mason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 7:27am
There is nothing more amusing than watching so called educated intellectuals, banter back and forth. All the fancy words and isms' cast about, and what have we learned....nothing. It must be what second and third graders sound like on the playground at private schools. Please carry on though, the entertainment value is priceless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... You have a lot of denial & projection problems in all your poor analysis of posts.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Looks who's projecting...
"Looks..." [sic]???
Obviously the slang went over your head.
Quote
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... This is straight out of the Orthodox Jewish Bible - why didn't you quote from the Masonic Bible (King James text)?
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You actually believe that there is a Masonic Bible?
Masonic Bibles are on sale at Amazon.com; and at the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on the third floor, and they can be read on Youtube (unfortunately by anti-Masons). So yes I do.
You've missed the point yet again.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... Coach, does your doctorate in Theology ...
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

What doctorate in Theology?
Different than a doctorate in divinity. But I made a mistake.
Make that yet another one.
Quote By the way, what is your doctorate in divinity IN?? Methodist? Baptist? Quakerism?
It's not. nope. nope. nope.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Learning disability?
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

No thanks. I have enough of yours for now.
The best rebuttal you can make is taking a sentence fragment out of context...
Nice catchy aphorism... not always true though.

Still avoiding the question I see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Learning disability?



Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

No thanks. I have enough of yours for now.


The best rebuttal you can make is taking a sentence fragment out of context???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

God, forgive me for trying to respond to what misleadingly appeared to be a legitimate appeal for help.
You misinterpret quite a bit.



[QUOTE=coach]Bold claims require significant proof. Are you up for it.


The proof is in all your posts.
Q>E>D>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... You have a lot of denial & projection problems in all your poor analysis of posts.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Looks who's projecting...


"Looks..." [sic]???


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... This is straight out of the Orthodox Jewish Bible - why didn't you quote from the Masonic Bible (King James text)?

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You actually believe that there is a Masonic Bible?


Masonic Bibles are on sale at Amazon.com; and at the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on the third floor, and they can be read on Youtube (unfortunately by anti-Masons). So yes I do.


[QUOTE=GrimoireA3] ... Coach, does your doctorate in Theology ...



[QUOTE=coach]What doctorate in Theology?


Different than a doctorate in divinity. But I made a mistake.

By the way, what is your doctorate in divinity IN?? Methodist? Baptist? Quakerism?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Thanks, I guess it was I that missed your original reply. Apologies for that. Although you didn't need to add to it. Quoting it for me would have been sufficient.


Thank you for carefully reading my thread with understanding. Quoting each post would be easier if they were numbered.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

My response is this... You DID state (in your quoted text shown above) that certain peoples, and their religious beliefs are/were superstitious.


"and their religious beliefs"??? Never said that in my above post, or any post I've ever made in my life. You've read into it again.


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

You further stated in your reply that ALL Protestants are heretics.


Heretics YES, superstitious NO!


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

I think (know) that they would disagree also.


Do you care if anti-Masons thinks Freemasons are Satan worshipers??

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Formal college education is not required to point out hypocritical thinking.


No, but it does make you an expert in ferreting out hypocritical thinking. Because that is what you are trained to do in four years of undergraduate education, two years of graduate education, and six to twelve years of PhD education, plus two more years of 'post doc' education.

And I have a basis for comparison (two honorable discharges and two college degrees).


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Education is not synonymous with intelligence.


Actually it is. It's how you use that education that is controversial. {think coach}.


[QUOTE=Adept?]I've known, and know plenty of college "educated" individuals who were/are as numb as a hammer pounded thumb.


And I've known two Olympians who were weaklings?? And I've known a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient who was a coward??? And I've known Navy Divers who couldn't swim??? And I've met a college professor who won the Nobel prize (at MIT for cryogenics) who was stupid????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 11:11am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... You have a lot of denial & projection problems in all your poor analysis of posts.
Looks who's projecting...
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... This is straight out of the Orthodox Jewish Bible - why didn't you quote from the Masonic Bible (King James text)?
You actually believe that there is a Masonic Bible?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... Coach, does your doctorate in Theology ...

What doctorate in Theology?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 11:04am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

God, forgive me for trying to respond to what misleadingly appeared to be a legitimate appeal for help.
You misinterpret quite a bit.

Bold claims require significant proof. Are you up for it.
Quote Learning disability?

No thanks. I have enough of yours for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:54am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



The superstitious ancient Egyptians took a multi-aspect 'gestalt' view of the human soul, that it was divided into five or more parts, with the 'ka' being equivalent to a 'spirit'...
...So One Part Soul - the other (spirit?) helps manifest it - is a view held by the superstitious ancient Egyptians, Theosophers, Kabbalists, Frankists, and others. But not contemporary theologians. Interesting.


Thanks, I guess it was I that missed your original reply. Apologies for that. Although you didn't need to add to it. Quoting it for me would have been sufficient.

My response is this... You DID state (in your quoted text shown above) that certain peoples, and their religious beliefs are/were superstitious. I think (know) that they would disagree, and could claim the same about you, and your chosen religious beliefs. You further stated in your reply that ALL Protestants are heretics. I think (know) that they would disagree also.

Formal college education is not required to point out hypocritical thinking. But it would appear that it enables one not to recognize it at all.... At least in one case I can think of...

Education is not synonymous with intelligence. I've known, and know plenty of college "educated" individuals who were/are as numb as a hammer pounded thumb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:17am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

One of the problems I am having with my Roman Catholic faith is the lack of a definitive description of what the soul is.  Other religions have the same problem with soul description.  I cannot accept that there is no soul, yet I cannot define it either.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You would have had a lot more success with this thread had simply stated this up front rather than contributing to the ongoing circle jerking and coming across like an evasive troll.


WOW, pot calling the kettle black here. You have a lot of denial & projection problems in all your poor analysis of posts. Personality flaw maybe? Do you have a learning disability?

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you want a definition, I recommend that you stop thinking of soul as a "thing", like most everyone assumes.


Amazing! - you are finally addressing the topic question being asked instead of trying to insert your own question and hijack the thread.

"Stop thinking of soul as a 'thing' - is great!

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Start understanding that soul is a characteristic indicative of synergy. Soul appears only when synergy occurs; and disappears when synergy stops. Soul also produces a track record when the characteristic appears.


I read this in the ZOHAR (book of Jewish Kabbalah).

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you are a bible believer or even someone who looks to the bible for clues, your first clue to what I am referring to can be found in Genesis 2:7:

And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.

(And the LORD God formed the man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)


This is straight out of the Orthodox Jewish Bible - why didn't you quote from the Masonic Bible (King James text)? Both curious and interesting.

[QUOTE=coach]Soul is revealed through some or all of the following characteristics:
1) Animation
2) Thought
3) Awareness
4) Understanding
------ (starting to get also into spirit here) ------
5) Perception
6) Insight
7) Emotion

Have at it...


No problem. All too familiar if you ever read the history of the kabbalah or Sabbatai Tsevi or Jacob Franks or of Crypto Jews or of the Young Turks or of the Donmeh in Turkey.

Those following characteristics are the Jewish interpretation of the Soul! Not original thinking on your part, but good research on an already existing orthodox 'religious' Jewish theology.

Coach, does your doctorate in Theology teach this view on the soul, or are you just convinced of the soul concept as found in Judaism?


      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 9:59am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

God, forgive me for trying to respond to what misleadingly appeared to be a legitimate appeal for help.


You misinterpret quite a bit. Learning disability?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

The superstitious ancient Egyptians took a multi-aspect 'gestalt' view of the human soul, that it was divided into five or more parts, with the 'ka' being equivalent to a 'spirit'...
...So One Part Soul - the other (spirit?) helps manifest it - is a view held by the superstitious ancient Egyptians, Theosophers, Kabbalists, Frankists, and others.  But not contemporary theologians.  Interesting.


[QUOTE=Adept?]What is interesting to me is how you recognize others beliefs and religions as superstitious, but not your own.  VERY interesting indeed.  Wacko


Hi Adept?,

That is both unfair and inaccurate as I have never said nor written that all other belief systems or religions were superstitious. I never wrote anywhere that Zorostrianism or Taoism or Buddhism or Protestantism or Satanism or Wicca or Islam ..... etc....'ad infititum' were superstitions. Protestantism may be heretical, but not a superstition. Christianity in general is not a superstition.

But Egyptologists, archeologists, and physical anthropologists have all written books on the many superstitions of the ancient Egyptians, not only on their religion but also their superstitions: the ancient Egyptians had many good luck charms, avoidance behavior against bad luck (don't walk under ladders, avoid black cats type of things), verbal and physical 'whammy's' against their enemies, charms for health, they feared haunted houses and ghosts, etc... - all separate from their religion.

It goes without saying that the ancient Egyptians were a superstitious bunch (as are the Japanese)and I take it for granted that participants on mastermason.com forums are already aware of this.   

[QUOTE=Adept?]I don't know if you missed this, or simply chose to ignore it, but I wonder if you might elaborate a little on your statements? How is it that you can regard the people and groups you listed above as superstitious for their religious beliefs and not regard all other religious beliefs in kind. Yours included of course. I'm sorry, but I can't board that train of thought...


Again, I do not know what is your level of education, but I always write to people as if they are college graduate level or above. Every college graduate (coach included I think) has a commonality of knowledge of history, math, philosophy, English grammar & syntax (not semantics), logic & rhetoric that are called the 'requirements' of the degree before you focus on your major or specialty. So I find it awkward to make a salient point only to have to spend the next dozen or so posts explaining basic grammar or history or logic; or have my well written explanation totally misinterpreted either through accident or design.

As I just explained I never have said any religion was a superstition. In fact we were taught in college that superstition and religion are two separate things and have nothing to do with each other. The History of Religion, Comparative Religions, and the Philosophy of Religion also separate superstition from theology, but not the Freemasons????? IF that is true, THEN the Masons are only going to marginalize themselves from mainstream accepted and proven thought.

I hope this explanation suffices.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Could somebody adept at syllogisms help me out here? This is an interesting paradox.
Creating syllogisms with undefined terms is analogous to trying to fertilize your spouse by spilling your seed everywhere but where it counts most. You might enjoy it, but all it does is make a mess without producing any significant results.
Coach,

You finally provided an excellent definition in one of your above posts which I used as a major and minor premise in a syllogism. Now you are defining mental masturbation after you make a working definition of soul?

God, forgive me for trying to respond to what misleadingly appeared to be a legitimate appeal for help. I shall do better next time.
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Could somebody adept at syllogisms help me out here? This is an interesting paradox.


[QUOTE=coach]Creating syllogisms with undefined terms is analogous to trying to fertilize your spouse by spilling your seed everywhere but where it counts most. You might enjoy it, but all it does is make a mess without producing any significant results.


Coach,

You finally provided an excellent definition in one of your above posts which I used as a major and minor premise in a syllogism. Now you are defining mental masturbation after you make a working definition of soul?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

The superstitious ancient Egyptians took a multi-aspect 'gestalt' view of the human soul, that it was divided into five or more parts, with the 'ka' being equivalent to a 'spirit'...
...So One Part Soul - the other (spirit?) helps manifest it - is a view held by the superstitious ancient Egyptians, Theosophers, Kabbalists, Frankists, and others.  But not contemporary theologians.  Interesting.


What is interesting to me is how you recognize others beliefs and religions as superstitious, but not your own.  VERY interesting indeed.  Wacko


I don't know if you missed this, or simply chose to ignore it, but I wonder if you might elaborate a little on your statements? How is it that you can regard the people and groups you listed above as superstitious for their religious beliefs and not regard all other religious beliefs in kind. Yours included of course. I'm sorry, but I can't board that train of thought...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, I think in the overall grand scheme of things the basic human foundation is the soul. Is this also true of animals, maybe even plants?


But that is Pantheism, that plants & animals have a soul - which every denomination of Christianity has rejected.

But Pantheism is found within Gnosticism, and those belief systems which emphasize Gnosticism.

Comparative Religion & the Philosophy of Religion explains all this interesting stuff.


I am sorry to hear that every Christian denomination has rejected the fact that animals and plants do not have souls; I knew some did reject that fact, not all. Are you sure? Oh well, regardless, that is my belief.  Like I said, it seems a bit arrogant and uppity to think we are the only ones who have souls. So, I believe in something pantheists believe in. I don't know what else they believe in, but I don't think of myself as a Pantheist. Aside from what you just wrote I don't know anything about Pantheism. I've done a bit of reading about Gnosticism and there are some things about it that makes sense to me. Whether it's true, who knows?


Edited by droche - September/02/2016 at 1:52pm
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Originally posted by coach coach wrote:


Creating syllogisms with undefined terms is analogous to trying to fertilize your spouse by spilling your seed everywhere but where it counts most. You might enjoy it, but all it does is make a mess without producing any significant results.


Ha!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 11:14am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Could somebody adept at syllogisms help me out here? This is an interesting paradox.

Creating syllogisms with undefined terms is analogous to trying to fertilize your spouse by spilling your seed everywhere but where it counts most. You might enjoy it, but all it does is make a mess without producing any significant results.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



Does Masonry also fall into that category?? Is Noah make believe? Is Solomon make believe? Is the G.A.O.T.U. make believe?




Yes
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, I think in the overall grand scheme of things the basic human foundation is the soul. Is this also true of animals, maybe even plants?


But that is Pantheism, that plants & animals have a soul - which every denomination of Christianity has rejected.

But Pantheism is found within Gnosticism, and those belief systems which emphasize Gnosticism.

Comparative Religion & the Philosophy of Religion explains all this interesting stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 10:17am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   "Do only humans have one?" is preposterous and utterly misleading.


That is a question, not a statement. There is nothing misleading about an interogative! Is this the source of confusion that no one knows the difference between a question and a statement? Do you see this (?) - that is called a question mark. It indicates a question being asked, not a statement being made. Questions are not misleading - a question is a request for information.

PLEASE STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD!


Notice he is now claiming victim status.
Notice his dismissal of the obvious.
Notice how he claims a question cannot be misleading.
Notice how he complains about things that have nothing to do with the thread.
Notice how he hijacks the thread and complains about it being hijacked.


Quote
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Humans don't have souls. Humans ARE souls!
Now that is tremendously interesting. Kant avoided this subject but Kant's negligence was brought out by Schopenhauer.

Yet despite coach's obvious absolute statement (always a mistake to make), it seems coach has created a paradox from a previous post where he recomends to drop the view that souls as things.

Syllogism:
If humans are souls
and humans are things,
----------------------
Then souls are things?

Of course I might have gotten my major and minor premises wrong, but this is an interesting paradox none the less (note: paradoxes are not contradictions).


Notice how he views humans as things.
Notice how he still avoids answering the questions posed.
Notice how his training doesn't prevent his behavior.



I got both premises wrong - if that was what you were trying to say??

Souls are not things according to Coach. See his above post [these posts really need to be numbered].

Now let me try again.

Syllogism II:

All Souls are not things (according to coach)
All humans are souls (according to coach)
---------------------------
Therefore humans are not things?
or
Humans don't have souls?

My major premise (from coach: Souls are not things)
My minor premise (from coach: humans are souls)
Conclusion: ?????

Could somebody adept at syllogisms help me out here? This is an interesting paradox. Thank you coach!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 10:01am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   "Do only humans have one?" is preposterous and utterly misleading.


That is a question, not a statement. There is nothing misleading about an interogative! Is this the source of confusion that no one knows the difference between a question and a statement? Do you see this (?) - that is called a question mark. It indicates a question being asked, not a statement being made. Questions are not misleading - a question is a request for information.

PLEASE STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD!


Notice he is now claiming victim status.
Notice his dismissal of the obvious.
Notice how he claims a question cannot be misleading.
Notice how he complains about things that have nothing to do with the thread.
Notice how he hijacks the thread and complains about it being hijacked.


Quote
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Humans don't have souls. Humans ARE souls!
Now that is tremendously interesting. Kant avoided this subject but Kant's negligence was brought out by Schopenhauer.

Yet despite coach's obvious absolute statement (always a mistake to make), it seems coach has created a paradox from a previous post where he recomends to drop the view that souls as things.

Syllogism:
If humans are souls
and humans are things,
----------------------
Then souls are things?

Of course I might have gotten my major and minor premises wrong, but this is an interesting paradox none the less (note: paradoxes are not contradictions).


Notice how he views humans as things.
Notice how he still avoids answering the questions posed.
Notice how his training doesn't prevent his behavior.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

IF modern theologians see the soul and spirit as one,

THEN why do other theologians still maintain that the soul is multi-faceted?

[QUOTE=Adept?]Easy!  People play make believe differently.


Does Masonry also fall into that category?? Is Noah make believe? Is Solomon make believe? Is the G.A.O.T.U. make believe?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 9:31am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   "Do only humans have one?" is preposterous and utterly misleading.


That is a question, not a statement. There is nothing misleading about an interogative! Is this the source of confusion that no one knows the difference between a question and a statement? Do you see this (?) - that is called a question mark. It indicates a question being asked, not a statement being made. Questions are not misleading - a question is a request for information.

PLEASE STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD!

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Humans don't have souls. Humans ARE souls!


Now that is tremendously interesting. Kant avoided this subject but Kant's negligence was brought out by Schopenhauer.

Yet despite coach's obvious absolute statement (always a mistake to make), it seems coach has created a paradox from a previous post where he recomends to drop the view that souls as things.

Syllogism:
If humans are souls
and humans are things,
----------------------
Then souls are things?

Of course I might have gotten my major and minor premises wrong, but this is an interesting paradox none the less (note: paradoxes are not contradictions).




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 4:33am
Originally posted by grimoirea3 grimoirea3 wrote:

define soul, do only humans have one.


    I define "soul" or "spirit" (one and the same as far as I'm concerned) as conciseness. Our conciseness is contained within our brains. We humans are aware of our conciseness, and our finite existence on this spec of cosmic dust we call planet earth. So by my personal definition, we are just one of many species on earth with brains, and conciseness.

    We humans however, being aware as we are of our limited time here have developed myth after myth after silly myth about what happens to our conciseness after our bodies fail and we die. "soul/spirit" is a direct result of that wish thinking. A desire to believe that there is something inside us that continues to be, after we cease to be. The desire to live on after death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 7:34pm
That's my feeling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, I think in the overall grand scheme of things the basic human foundation is the soul. Is this also true of animals, maybe even plants?

They meet the basic definition, as in, they don't have souls; they ARE souls.

Edited by coach - September/01/2016 at 5:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 5:09pm
Yes, I think in the overall grand scheme of things the basic human foundation is the soul. Is this also true of animals, maybe even plants?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Well you finally gave an answer. The fact that you do not know is an acceptable answer to me. In case you missed it, I gave my definition of "soul" a while ago: that part of oneself that survives the death of the physical body.

So back to your original question: Do only humans have a soul? I think I might have answered that also in the same post but it was so many posts ago I can't remember. My own belief is that all animals, perhaps even plants have a soul, as I define it. Do I know for sure? Of course not, but my belief is pretty strong. Some denominations I think teach that only humans have a soul. To me this is kind of arrogant. For example, I find it difficult to believe that I have a soul, but my dog, who is so affectionate, protective and loyal does not. Humans share more characteristics with animals than not, so why not a soul, as I define it?

Of course everyone has a difficult time defining "soul." It is so abstract that it is beyond the realm of the human mind to understand. Perhaps in the evolutionary process, beings who come after us (assuming all of us who are here now don't wipe out everything there is) will have a more clear understanding.

Brother,

I propose an entirely different view and claim the second proposed thread question "Do only humans have one?" is preposterous and utterly misleading.

Humans don't have souls. Humans ARE souls!

Which when you think about this even for a little bit, the statement answers the first question: Define SOUL?




Edited by coach - September/01/2016 at 3:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

" You started this thread asking what the definition of "soul" is, yet you seem to evading requests to offer your definition. What gives?

Yes I did the asking.  But only one or two actually tried to answer the questions.  The rest of this thread is a huge digression away from topic - define soul?

I wouldn't be asking Freemasons this question if I already knew the answer - hence my question: DEFINE SOUL?

And mostly for answers I'm getting circumlocutions and equivocations and reversals.

One of the problems I am having with my Roman Catholic faith is the lack of a definitive description of what the soul is.  Other religions have the same problem with soul description.  I cannot accept that there is no soul, yet I cannot define it either.

P.S. Is there any way to number these forum answers to refer back to various answers??  Thanx.


Well you finally gave an answer. The fact that you do not know is an acceptable answer to me. In case you missed it, I gave my definition of "soul" a while ago: that part of oneself that survives the death of the physical body.

So back to your original question: Do only humans have a soul? I think I might have answered that also in the same post but it was so many posts ago I can't remember. My own belief is that all animals, perhaps even plants have a soul, as I define it. Do I know for sure? Of course not, but my belief is pretty strong. Some denominations I think teach that only humans have a soul. To me this is kind of arrogant. For example, I find it difficult to believe that I have a soul, but my dog, who is so affectionate, protective and loyal does not. Humans share more characteristics with animals than not, so why not a soul, as I define it?

Of course everyone has a difficult time defining "soul." It is so abstract that it is beyond the realm of the human mind to understand. Perhaps in the evolutionary process, beings who come after us (assuming all of us who are here now don't wipe out everything there is) will have a more clear understanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

IF modern theologians see the soul and spirit as one,

THEN why do other theologians still maintain that the soul is multi-faceted?

Easy!  People play make believe differently.  


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

IF there is a soul, THEN how do humans prove it exists?

Good question... and good luck with your experiments to find the answer.  I'll be looking for your future publication of your findings.  



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

IF there is a soul, THEN why do religions/philosophy hold so many versions of it?
 

Again, people have individual imaginations, and they play make believe differently.


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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 The superstitious ancient Egyptians took a multi-aspect 'gestalt' view of the human soul, that it was divided into five or more parts, with the 'ka' being equivalent to a 'spirit'...
...So One Part Soul - the other (spirit?) helps manifest it - is a view held by the superstitious ancient Egyptians, Theosophers, Kabbalists, Frankists, and others.  But not contemporary theologians.  Interesting.

What is interesting to me is how you recognize others beliefs and religions as superstitious, but not your own.  VERY interesting indeed.  Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:41am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... Remember, modern philosophers and theologians agree that soul and spirit are one in the same...

Well then... if they all agree that should settle it. What's next to discuss.

PLENTY to discuss.  If/then conditional:

IF modern theologians see the soul and spirit as one,

THEN why do other theologians still maintain that the soul is multi-faceted?

This is a conundrum which 'might' be solved using a syllogism or a sorite?  Somebody is mistaken since no one is infallible.

More if/then conditionals:

IF there is a soul, THEN how do humans prove it exists?

IF there is a soul, THEN why would it be whole or multi-faceted?

IF there is a soul, THEN why do religions/philosophy hold so many versions of it?

BUT! - I think the answer might lie in the very nature of the IF/THEN Conditional itself (without using a syllogism or sorite): 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:27am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... Remember, modern philosophers and theologians agree that soul and spirit are one in the same...

Well then... if they all agree that should settle it. What's next to discuss.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:19am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by pointwithinacircle pointwithinacircle wrote:

My best guess is that the names soul and spirit are symbols for the two great aspects of the human psyche. 

I disagree with your guess. One is part of the soul. The other helps manifest it, but it is not the soul.


Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'?


What "Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'?"

A quick scan of the above posts: Coach's reply - One part is soul.  The other helps manifest if, but it is not the soul.

This is extremely familiar to me.  In fact a many faceted soul is found in the Ancient Egyptian religion in which the 'ka' is just one but important aspect of the soul.  The superstitious ancient Egyptians took a multi-aspect 'gestalt' view of the human soul, that it was divided into five or more parts, with the 'ka' being equivalent to a 'spirit'.  Remember, modern philosophers and theologians agree that soul and spirit are one in the same.

Following the Egyptian interpretation, Madame Blavatsky invented a new religion called THEOSOPHY, in which the soul, Egyptian like, is multi-faceted and the 'spirit' helps hold the soul together or the spirit helps manifests it.

This is also found in Jewish eschatology, especially in the book ZOHAR (kabbalah) which not only has a multi-faceted soul, but also espouses the transmigration of souls, from one human being to another after death.  Thus Jacob Franks claimed he was the reincarnation of Sabbatai Tsevi (the messaiah).

So One Part Soul - the other (spirit?) helps manifest it - is a view held by the superstitious ancient Egyptians, Theosophers, Kabbalists, Frankists, and others.  But not contemporary theologians.  Interesting.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by pointwithinacircle pointwithinacircle wrote:

My best guess is that the names soul and spirit are symbols for the two great aspects of the human psyche. 

I disagree with your guess. One is part of the soul. The other helps manifest it, but it is not the soul.


Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'?


What "Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2016 at 11:31am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by pointwithinacircle pointwithinacircle wrote:

My best guess is that the names soul and spirit are symbols for the two great aspects of the human psyche. 

I disagree with your guess. One is part of the soul. The other helps manifest it, but it is not the soul.


Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'?
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

One of the problems I am having with my Roman Catholic faith is the lack of a definitive description of what the soul is.  Other religions have the same problem with soul description.  I cannot accept that there is no soul, yet I cannot define it either.

You would have had a lot more success with this thread had simply stated this up front rather than contributing to the ongoing circle jerking and coming across like an evasive troll.

If you want a definition, I recommend that you stop thinking of soul as a "thing", like most everyone assumes.

Start understanding that soul is a characteristic indicative of synergy. Soul appears only when synergy occurs; and disappears when synergy stops. Soul also produces a track record when the characteristic appears.

If you are a bible believer or even someone who looks to the bible for clues, your first clue to what I am referring to can be found in Genesis 2:7:

And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.

(And the LORD God formed the man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

Soul is revealed through some or all of the following characteristics:
1) Animation
2) Thought
3) Awareness
4) Understanding
------ (starting to get also into spirit here) ------
5) Perception
6) Insight
7) Emotion

Have at it...


      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/30/2016 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

" You started this thread asking what the definition of "soul" is, yet you seem to evading requests to offer your definition. What gives?

Yes I did the asking.  But only one or two actually tried to answer the questions.  The rest of this thread is a huge digression away from topic - define soul?

I wouldn't be asking Freemasons this question if I already knew the answer - hence my question: DEFINE SOUL?

And mostly for answers I'm getting circumlocutions and equivocations and reversals.

One of the problems I am having with my Roman Catholic faith is the lack of a definitive description of what the soul is.  Other religions have the same problem with soul description.  I cannot accept that there is no soul, yet I cannot define it either.

P.S. Is there any way to number these forum answers to refer back to various answers??  Thanx.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/30/2016 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

I'm not going to waste my time arguing against your statements above in which you quoted my post.  The post itself is argument enough, and stands for itself.   I'll just respond to this one statement.

Originally posted by grimoirea3 grimoirea3 wrote:

 State your case with reason and well thought out arguments
 

My response is this.  I DID!  

[QUOTE=Adept?]P.S.  Not a word of it came from Wikipedia.

Excellent.  Wikipedia is intellectual idolatry.  Quoting Wiki definitions does not prove you understand the concept you're explaining, wiki is not definitive, wiki sources cannot be substantiated, and wiki is simply a 'graffitti' wall of personal opinions, not scholarly research.  And this is the view held by academic professionals.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/30/2016 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You cannot invent an occurrence.
Correct. Occurrences are 'discovered'.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You cannot discover something that is already occurring.
No? The scientific method is based on discovering occurrences.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

All you can do is admit that you are aware that it is occurring.
Differentiate 'aware' from 'discovery'? Doesn't discovery make you aware? Discovery comes first, awareness comes second?
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Define "soul" and you define that awareness.
You made a discovery!   
 

[QUOTE=coach]It all sounds like mental pleasuring at this point and in circular fashion. You have yet to define anything. Nothing of value has been offered. Time to move on.

Opinion.
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I'm not going to waste my time arguing against your statements above in which you quoted my post.  The post itself is argument enough, and stands for itself.   I'll just respond to this one statement.

Originally posted by grimoirea3 grimoirea3 wrote:

 State your case with reason and well thought out arguments
 

My response is this.  I DID!  

P.S.  Not a word of it came from Wikipedia.  Not that it would matter if any of it had... facts are facts.

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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You cannot invent an occurrence.
Correct. Occurrences are 'discovered'.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You cannot discover something that is already occurring.
No? The scientific method is based on discovering occurrences.
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

All you can do is admit that you are aware that it is occurring.
Differentiate 'aware' from 'discovery'? Doesn't discovery make you aware? Discovery comes first, awareness comes second?
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Define "soul" and you define that awareness.
You made a discovery!   

It all sounds like mental pleasuring at this point and in circular fashion. You have yet to define anything. Nothing of value has been offered. Time to move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/24/2016 at 10:47am
Grimoire, see my comment in the other related thread re your definition of "soul." You started this thread asking what the definition of "soul" is, yet you seem to evading requests to offer your definition. What gives?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/24/2016 at 9:31am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You cannot invent an occurrence.


Correct. Occurrences are 'discovered'.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You cannot discover something that is already occurring.


No? The scientific method is based on discovering occurrences.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

All you can do is admit that you are aware that it is occurring.

Differentiate 'aware' from 'discovery'? Doesn't discovery make you aware? Discovery comes first, awareness comes second?


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Define "soul" and you define that awareness.


You made a discovery!   
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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