Define SOUL? Do only humans have one? |
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Adept?
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To be clear... I was apologizing only for steering the thread off topic. I issue no apologies for any of my statements regarding religion, religious beliefs, or ideas. If people are offended, so be it. While I do not try to be deliberately offensive, their finding them offensive does not constitute an argument against any of my statements.
Edited by Adept? - August/20/2016 at 1:26am |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
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Hence my agreement with your comment about arrogance. One cannot claim to not want to be offensive, when one is clearly that, and then turn around and blame the target of one's attacks for being offended when the attacks were purposeful and successful in creating offense. You have no idea how offensive you are in all this. You say that find yourself offended by what you say is the arrogance of others (them speaking their truth) yet you hold as an acceptable standard that your behavior is not offensive when you speak your "truth" and others are offended. You then dismiss your liability for speaking your "truth" by blaming the victims of your attack who voice opposition, those who respond quite appropriately to your attacks. All this is arrogance and obviously hypocritical behavior. Doctor, heal thyself. |
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Adept?
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You must have misunderstood this statement... or perhaps you didn't read it all. I shall respond to you in a private message, since you obviously desire to continue.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
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Perhaps you misunderstood my responses and my intent. If I wanted to go private, I would have. My responses are purposefully public, as were yours. You might respond to me in private, but the door you opened is quite public and demands public resolution. It's clear that you have yet to accept that you are suffering from the same maladies that you claim others suffer from, that you find offense in the same things you do offensively and that you do not see that you have a double standard in your militancy. For someone who embraces being blunt about what you consider nonsense, you sure do embrace much unnecessary nonsense of your own. Edited by coach - August/20/2016 at 7:59am |
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Adept?
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I have sent you a private message. Reply if you choose.
I must say, I'm more than a little confused by your strong opposition... In our earlier private correspondences, and phone conversation, you seemed to agree with me. If I recall correctly, you stated something to that effect in one of your messages. (I may still have it, I'm not sure) [I did still have it, you said "I can sorely relate to your experiences"] At any rate, it would seem that either you misunderstood me, I you, or both. Should you choose not to respond to my private message, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. (which we'll probably have to do either way) Again, apologies to Grim for hijacking his thread.
Edited by Adept? - August/20/2016 at 8:45am |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
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Quite understandable. You have no idea how you're coming across and believe militancy should not have to be defended. By it's nature, it attacks. Attacks are uncivil. Incivility that is believed to be acceptable when you are doing it, but unacceptable when others do it, is a mark of hypocrisy and is arrogant.
On what we may or may not agree is not the issue; it is your militancy that is. BTW - What I stated is that I can relate to your experiences. There is much nonsense put forth in this world. It is our job to filter it out for ourselves and let others to the same for themselves, without attacking them when we believe otherwise.
It appears that you have done just that. I can relate to being offended, and I can relate to being offensive. I'm making inroads to improving both conditions.
Agree to disagree sounds best. |
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GrimoireA3
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A soul (if it exists) is not a 'ghost'. |
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GrimoireA3
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Apologies not necessary. |
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GrimoireA3
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An invention, or a discovery?! |
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coach
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Yes. It doesn't make sense. If one takes time to think it through, one would find quite quickly that the soul is not an invention at all. Equally, a discovery doesn't make sense either. I put forth that it is neither. It lends itself more toward humans merely becoming aware that the soul is occurring more than anything else. |
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GrimoireA3
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Hi droche, As a Roman Catholic, my faith teaches/instructs/indoctrinates that only humans have souls. Yet the Catholic definition of soul eludes me and uses the word 'essence' as the descriptive term. And this is too vague and nebulous to suit me. Every faith on the planet holds differing views on 'animism' and I was curious as to the Masonic view of the soul? |
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GrimoireA3
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The soul as an invention, discovery, or awareness? Yet aware of what? |
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coach
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You cannot invent an occurrence. You cannot discover something that is already occurring. All you can do is admit that you are aware that it is occurring. Define "soul" and you define that awareness. |
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GrimoireA3
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Ironic, since 'morality' is the Bible's main strength when considering all its other weaknesses. Have you carefully read: Job, Deuteronomy, Numbers, the psalms???
And the 'Holy Book of Law' of Masonry?
Yes, extremely so. You must balance the good with the bad (like Yin & Yang) and make a basis of comparison. Also, you seem to be 'cherry picking' exactly as the anti-Masons cherry pick at Freemasonry (which I resent). This is just a rhetorical question (no reply needed): do Masons worship Baphomet?; do Masons hold Jacob Frank type sex orgies in their lodges?; are Masons devil worshipers?; are Masons taking over the world?; are Masons atheists?; are Masons the anti-Christ?; etc....... They are according to the misinterpretations of the anti-Masons. So if you study the 'enemy' (sun Tzu The Art of War) then you can for a basis for your own position.
Doesn't the same apply to profanes?
Good for you! I agree with your position. "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall. That being clarified, it would behoove you adept? to couch your rhetoric with clarity & rigor: logic, syntax, and grammar. State your case with reason and well thought out arguments - not dogmatism or absolute statements. Identify fact from fiction and cite your 'primary' sources well (i.e. not Wikipedia - wiki is intellectual idolatry). Master logical fallacies. And you will pass peer review. |
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GrimoireA3
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Correct. Occurrences are 'discovered'.
No? The scientific method is based on discovering occurrences.
Differentiate 'aware' from 'discovery'? Doesn't discovery make you aware? Discovery comes first, awareness comes second?
You made a discovery! |
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droche
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Grimoire, see my comment in the other related thread re your definition of "soul." You started this thread asking what the definition of "soul" is, yet you seem to evading requests to offer your definition. What gives?
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coach
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It all sounds like mental pleasuring at this point and in circular fashion. You have yet to define anything. Nothing of value has been offered. Time to move on. |
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Adept?
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I'm not going to waste my time arguing against your statements above in which you quoted my post. The post itself is argument enough, and stands for itself. I'll just respond to this one statement.
My response is this. I DID! P.S. Not a word of it came from Wikipedia. Not that it would matter if any of it had... facts are facts.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
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Opinion.
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GrimoireA3
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Excellent. Wikipedia is intellectual idolatry. Quoting Wiki definitions does not prove you understand the concept you're explaining, wiki is not definitive, wiki sources cannot be substantiated, and wiki is simply a 'graffitti' wall of personal opinions, not scholarly research. And this is the view held by academic professionals. |
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GrimoireA3
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Yes I did the asking. But only one or two actually tried to answer the questions. The rest of this thread is a huge digression away from topic - define soul? I wouldn't be asking Freemasons this question if I already knew the answer - hence my question: DEFINE SOUL? And mostly for answers I'm getting circumlocutions and equivocations and reversals. One of the problems I am having with my Roman Catholic faith is the lack of a definitive description of what the soul is. Other religions have the same problem with soul description. I cannot accept that there is no soul, yet I cannot define it either. P.S. Is there any way to number these forum answers to refer back to various answers?? Thanx.
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coach
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You would have had a lot more success with this thread had simply stated this up front rather than contributing to the ongoing circle jerking and coming across like an evasive troll. If you want a definition, I recommend that you stop thinking of soul as a "thing", like most everyone assumes. Start understanding that soul is a characteristic indicative of synergy. Soul appears only when synergy occurs; and disappears when synergy stops. Soul also produces a track record when the characteristic appears. If you are a bible believer or even someone who looks to the bible for clues, your first clue to what I am referring to can be found in Genesis 2:7: And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah. (And the LORD God formed the man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.) Soul is revealed through some or all of the following characteristics: 1) Animation 2) Thought 3) Awareness 4) Understanding ------ (starting to get also into spirit here) ------ 5) Perception 6) Insight 7) Emotion Have at it... |
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GrimoireA3
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Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'? |
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coach
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What "Sounds like Madame Blavatsky's THEOSOPHY explanation of the soul? Or the Egyptian 'KA'?" |
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GrimoireA3
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A quick scan of the above posts: Coach's reply - One part is soul. The other helps manifest if, but it is not the soul. This is extremely familiar to me. In fact a many faceted soul is found in the Ancient Egyptian religion in which the 'ka' is just one but important aspect of the soul. The superstitious ancient Egyptians took a multi-aspect 'gestalt' view of the human soul, that it was divided into five or more parts, with the 'ka' being equivalent to a 'spirit'. Remember, modern philosophers and theologians agree that soul and spirit are one in the same. Following the Egyptian interpretation, Madame Blavatsky invented a new religion called THEOSOPHY, in which the soul, Egyptian like, is multi-faceted and the 'spirit' helps hold the soul together or the spirit helps manifests it. This is also found in Jewish eschatology, especially in the book ZOHAR (kabbalah) which not only has a multi-faceted soul, but also espouses the transmigration of souls, from one human being to another after death. Thus Jacob Franks claimed he was the reincarnation of Sabbatai Tsevi (the messaiah). So One Part Soul - the other (spirit?) helps manifest it - is a view held by the superstitious ancient Egyptians, Theosophers, Kabbalists, Frankists, and others. But not contemporary theologians. Interesting.
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coach
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Well then... if they all agree that should settle it. What's next to discuss. |
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GrimoireA3
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PLENTY to discuss. If/then conditional: IF modern theologians see the soul and spirit as one, THEN why do other theologians still maintain that the soul is multi-faceted? This is a conundrum which 'might' be solved using a syllogism or a sorite? Somebody is mistaken since no one is infallible. More if/then conditionals: IF there is a soul, THEN how do humans prove it exists? IF there is a soul, THEN why would it be whole or multi-faceted? IF there is a soul, THEN why do religions/philosophy hold so many versions of it? BUT! - I think the answer might lie in the very nature of the IF/THEN Conditional itself (without using a syllogism or sorite):
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Adept?
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What is interesting to me is how you recognize others beliefs and religions as superstitious, but not your own. VERY interesting indeed.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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Adept?
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Easy! People play make believe differently.
Good question... and good luck with your experiments to find the answer. I'll be looking for your future publication of your findings.
Again, people have individual imaginations, and they play make believe differently. |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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droche
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Well you finally gave an answer. The fact that you do not know is an acceptable answer to me. In case you missed it, I gave my definition of "soul" a while ago: that part of oneself that survives the death of the physical body. So back to your original question: Do only humans have a soul? I think I might have answered that also in the same post but it was so many posts ago I can't remember. My own belief is that all animals, perhaps even plants have a soul, as I define it. Do I know for sure? Of course not, but my belief is pretty strong. Some denominations I think teach that only humans have a soul. To me this is kind of arrogant. For example, I find it difficult to believe that I have a soul, but my dog, who is so affectionate, protective and loyal does not. Humans share more characteristics with animals than not, so why not a soul, as I define it? Of course everyone has a difficult time defining "soul." It is so abstract that it is beyond the realm of the human mind to understand. Perhaps in the evolutionary process, beings who come after us (assuming all of us who are here now don't wipe out everything there is) will have a more clear understanding. |
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coach
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Brother, I propose an entirely different view and claim the second proposed thread question "Do only humans have one?" is preposterous and utterly misleading. Humans don't have souls. Humans ARE souls! Which when you think about this even for a little bit, the statement answers the first question: Define SOUL? Edited by coach - September/01/2016 at 3:15pm |
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droche
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Yes, I think in the overall grand scheme of things the basic human foundation is the soul. Is this also true of animals, maybe even plants?
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coach
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They meet the basic definition, as in, they don't have souls; they ARE souls. Edited by coach - September/01/2016 at 5:24pm |
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droche
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That's my feeling.
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Adept?
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I define "soul" or "spirit" (one and the same as far as I'm concerned) as conciseness. Our conciseness is contained within our brains. We humans are aware of our conciseness, and our finite existence on this spec of cosmic dust we call planet earth. So by my personal definition, we are just one of many species on earth with brains, and conciseness. We humans however, being aware as we are of our limited time here have developed myth after myth after silly myth about what happens to our conciseness after our bodies fail and we die. "soul/spirit" is a direct result of that wish thinking. A desire to believe that there is something inside us that continues to be, after we cease to be. The desire to live on after death. |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
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That is a question, not a statement. There is nothing misleading about an interogative! Is this the source of confusion that no one knows the difference between a question and a statement? Do you see this (?) - that is called a question mark. It indicates a question being asked, not a statement being made. Questions are not misleading - a question is a request for information. PLEASE STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD!
Now that is tremendously interesting. Kant avoided this subject but Kant's negligence was brought out by Schopenhauer. Yet despite coach's obvious absolute statement (always a mistake to make), it seems coach has created a paradox from a previous post where he recomends to drop the view that souls as things. Syllogism: If humans are souls and humans are things, ---------------------- Then souls are things? Of course I might have gotten my major and minor premises wrong, but this is an interesting paradox none the less (note: paradoxes are not contradictions). |
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GrimoireA3
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Does Masonry also fall into that category?? Is Noah make believe? Is Solomon make believe? Is the G.A.O.T.U. make believe? |
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coach
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Notice he is now claiming victim status. Notice his dismissal of the obvious. Notice how he claims a question cannot be misleading. Notice how he complains about things that have nothing to do with the thread. Notice how he hijacks the thread and complains about it being hijacked.
Notice how he views humans as things. Notice how he still avoids answering the questions posed. Notice how his training doesn't prevent his behavior. |
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GrimoireA3
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I got both premises wrong - if that was what you were trying to say?? Souls are not things according to Coach. See his above post [these posts really need to be numbered]. Now let me try again. Syllogism II: All Souls are not things (according to coach) All humans are souls (according to coach) --------------------------- Therefore humans are not things? or Humans don't have souls? My major premise (from coach: Souls are not things) My minor premise (from coach: humans are souls) Conclusion: ????? Could somebody adept at syllogisms help me out here? This is an interesting paradox. Thank you coach! |
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GrimoireA3
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But that is Pantheism, that plants & animals have a soul - which every denomination of Christianity has rejected. But Pantheism is found within Gnosticism, and those belief systems which emphasize Gnosticism. Comparative Religion & the Philosophy of Religion explains all this interesting stuff. |
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Adept?
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Yes |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
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Creating syllogisms with undefined terms is analogous to trying to fertilize your spouse by spilling your seed everywhere but where it counts most. You might enjoy it, but all it does is make a mess without producing any significant results. |
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Adept?
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Ha! |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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droche
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I am sorry to hear that every Christian denomination has rejected the fact that animals and plants do not have souls; I knew some did reject that fact, not all. Are you sure? Oh well, regardless, that is my belief. Like I said, it seems a bit arrogant and uppity to think we are the only ones who have souls. So, I believe in something pantheists believe in. I don't know what else they believe in, but I don't think of myself as a Pantheist. Aside from what you just wrote I don't know anything about Pantheism. I've done a bit of reading about Gnosticism and there are some things about it that makes sense to me. Whether it's true, who knows? Edited by droche - September/02/2016 at 1:52pm |
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Adept?
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I don't know if you missed this, or simply chose to ignore it, but I wonder if you might elaborate a little on your statements? How is it that you can regard the people and groups you listed above as superstitious for their religious beliefs and not regard all other religious beliefs in kind. Yours included of course. I'm sorry, but I can't board that train of thought... |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
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Coach, You finally provided an excellent definition in one of your above posts which I used as a major and minor premise in a syllogism. Now you are defining mental masturbation after you make a working definition of soul? |
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coach
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God, forgive me for trying to respond to what misleadingly appeared to be a legitimate appeal for help. I shall do better next time. |
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GrimoireA3
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Again, I do not know what is your level of education, but I always write to people as if they are college graduate level or above. Every college graduate (coach included I think) has a commonality of knowledge of history, math, philosophy, English grammar & syntax (not semantics), logic & rhetoric that are called the 'requirements' of the degree before you focus on your major or specialty. So I find it awkward to make a salient point only to have to spend the next dozen or so posts explaining basic grammar or history or logic; or have my well written explanation totally misinterpreted either through accident or design. As I just explained I never have said any religion was a superstition. In fact we were taught in college that superstition and religion are two separate things and have nothing to do with each other. The History of Religion, Comparative Religions, and the Philosophy of Religion also separate superstition from theology, but not the Freemasons????? IF that is true, THEN the Masons are only going to marginalize themselves from mainstream accepted and proven thought. I hope this explanation suffices. |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
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You misinterpret quite a bit. Learning disability? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
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No problem. All too familiar if you ever read the history of the kabbalah or Sabbatai Tsevi or Jacob Franks or of Crypto Jews or of the Young Turks or of the Donmeh in Turkey. Those following characteristics are the Jewish interpretation of the Soul! Not original thinking on your part, but good research on an already existing orthodox 'religious' Jewish theology. Coach, does your doctorate in Theology teach this view on the soul, or are you just convinced of the soul concept as found in Judaism? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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