What did Bacon mean by "Idols of the Theater"? |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Topic: What did Bacon mean by "Idols of the Theater"? Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:40pm |
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This thread is confusing. The opening question (title) and post implies a discussion of Bacon's Idols. However, the OP bashes replies which does give a definitive answer. And would not give a reference to where he read Bacon's statements (until today). ... The fact is the OP was looking for a definition to Coach's use of a Bostonian reference to the 'Idols of the Marketplace' in another thread and apparently thought all Masons would understand the reference. ... This looks like a PIssING contest between the OP & Coach.
This thread seems to have been 'on topic'; 'off topic'; 'on topic'; 'off topic' again and again. In fact it has never been 'on topic' because it was about a comment made in another thread. This thread is LOCKED! and will be hidden in 24 hours. Admin |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 5:09pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
But he answered it, or clarified it and I do understand it now. I had to understand "Idols of the Theater" before I could understand the answer. I still don't fully understand Idols of the Theater nut my understanding is better now.
Edited by droche - September/08/2016 at 5:10pm |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:35pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Hi edwmax, Thank you very much for going through the time and trouble posting this nice set of definitions. But I already came across them and did not fully comprehend their meaning as applied to real life situations, particularly to discussion. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:28pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
[QUOTE=droche] I am trying to keep this thread on track, perhaps naively so, and I want to learn about Bacon's "Idols of the Theater." I've asked for some context about the term. Let me put it in another way: Can someone give a real world example?
I asked how it might relate to Freemasonry, if at all. I received the answer: Two phrases apply: 1) Because Tradition 2) Because Grand Lodge I don't understand that answer. Nobody understands the answer. Thanks droche for asking these questions. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:24pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Resembles a psychiatric explanation for a delusion or delusional thinking? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 2:13pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Grimoire,
Referring back to your response from my previous post: i did not misread your post. I knew you were presenting a hypothetical situation. My response is the same. You should be able to tell from another post I made, I too find it disappointing that all Masons, not just Worshipful Masters, are not given more education in so-called "esoteric" matters. That being said, assuming such education were given, it would still be a stretch to think that something along the lines of the writings of Francis Bacon would be included. I also wrote in another post that most Masons have families, work and the day to day working of the lodge, which are just as important as the "esoteric." I don't know how else to put it. Freemasonry simply doesn't get as "deep" as you are expecting or seem to think it should. I am not advocating for Coach. I simply said I was quite certain that his source of knowledge of certain matters came from outside of Freemasonry. I can't see where I am advocating, just clarifying. I also gave him room to comment on his own if he so desired. My disappointed [sic], frankly, is the lack of sophistication in the responses from various Masons and the seemingly lack of education: most of the responses appear to be from practical men rather than from scholars. Frankly, this is where I get frustrated. For three years I and others have been trying to explain to you that Freemasonry is more practical than scholarly. There certainly are scholarly aspects, and perhaps these should be emphasized more, but it is never going to rise to the level that you appear to think it should, nor should it. Freemasonry attempts to reach out to men from all walks of life. To make it a purely scholarly organization would, in my opinion, would make it elitist. There are Masons who would like to see it that way but I am not among them. We have Lodges of Research a Mason can join if that aspect interests them. So that's the lodge I will have to join?[Grand Orient de France] I don't know if there are any lodges in the local area under the Grande Oriente de France. A few years ago some clandestine lodges elsewhere in the US affiliated with the GOdF, but I think they soon left or were kicked out. In any event, the decision is up to you, but I don't recommend it. I don't know what else to tell you. Bear in mind that there are many "scholarly" Masons out there, but they don't all come to forums. Have you searched for other Masonic forums where the discussions might be more along the lines you seek?
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 1:22pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This has been previously discussed and as I stated, I am more clear about it now. You also wrote that if we did not know an answer, just admit it. That is what I was doing.
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:42am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
The origin of this thread: From the topic question: Is Immortality Possible If Man Has No Soul? Coach Posted: August/31/2016 at 12:23 pm Please read post carefully. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:39am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Your silence is deafening. Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/08/2016 at 10:39am |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:37am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Here's the location of the origin. Please read carefully, From the topic question thread: Is Immortality Possible If Man Has No Soul? Coach Posted: August/31/2016 at 12:23 pm. Please read what he states and that's why I started a new thread on Baconian Idolatry. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:20am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Hi droche, Thanks for being the only Masonic sane voice of reason on this topic thread. Actually, if you read my post a bit more carefully, you will see I clearly wrote 'if' I were a Mason. That is a hypothetical! In English it is referred to as a 'conditional' used to express wishes or hypothetical situations. Since I have no idea of what occurs inside the privacy of a Masonic lodge I expressed a hypothetical 'if I was' a Mason - then I would certainly ask some pointed questions to whoever is in charge of the joint. But maybe its time those questions were asked?
I find that disappointing.
Coach is college educated and a professional [just like me] - he knows better. And that is the rub. He must be made accountable for what he avers.
You're a good man droche, but I don't think coach needs an advocate, he can defend himself - which he does a poor job.
As I explained when I first visited the forum three years ago, I thought Freemasonry was a rich man's elks club, and that was it. It was my discovery of a Masonic Bible which further piqued my interest in Masonry, and I came to this forum as a blank slate with no pre-conceived notions: as an example: I never heard of an 'anti-Mason' before I visited these forums (why would there be an anti-Mason in the first place?). My disappointed, frankly, is the lack of sophistication in the responses from various Masons and the seemingly lack of education: most of the responses appear to be from practical men rather than from scholars. If Freemasonry pushes the 'self-made man' concept from the 1900s, then that if a great thing. I am currently reading a good book: 'THOMAS DUNCKERLEY: A Remarkable Freemason' (1982) by Ron Chudley, which outlines the career of a 18th century Englishman who rose from a gunner's mate to a high ranking and influential Mason in Great Britain - again a hagiography of a self-made man.
But those lectures is required reading. And don't take yourself for granted, those lectures/required reading is deep philosophy!!! Which what struck me from delving into the primary Freemason literature here at the Boston Public Library in the first place (good stuff to read!!).
So that's the lodge I will have to join?
Again, the required lectures are required reading (because the lectures are also printed?). Again, droche, thank you for this intelligent rebuttal. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:54am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
No you did not clearly address the topic question in your very first post, you once again relied on an obtuse definition from Wiki or some other site rather than draw upon your own knowledge of the subject. Come on 'fess up Coach - you don't know! |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:51am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Yep. Even yours. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:27am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Rationalizing is another type of avoiding. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 6:29pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 4:35pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
And you're still avoiding. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 4:31pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
And that continues to be the fact whether you like it or not.
Yet that does not alter the fact that it was coach, and not I, who brought up the subject of Baconian Idols in the first place. And if these posts were numbered then citing other posts would make discussion a lot smoother.
And again I reiterate, what 'discussion' took place outside of Mastermason.co forums?? Amazon.com doesn't have a forum to discuss anything! No 'discussion took place outside of Mastermason.com forums. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 3:57pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Those are elements of Leadership, which is taught by our annual Leadership Conference. This is the third year of the Conference. Many of our Lodge officers move into the East and have no idea how to do any of those Leadership functions. Our Custodians are authorized to hold 'Schools of Instructions'. The Schools of Instructions covers Opening & Closing the Lodge; reception of the GM or DDGM; All 3 degrees, word for word from the Coded cipher, with correct steps & movements. ... This is the GL of Georgia and might differ some in other GLs. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 3:31pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't know that the whole structure of the lodge needs to be changed to put more emphasis on the philosophical aspects. The following are the subjects of the Lodge of Instruction in my district for the next six months and are similar to those discussed for many years: Budgeting Prioritizing Conflict Resolution Project Management Effective Communication What Motivates People These are all necessary subjects of course but is there room for Masonic history, background information of the Blue Lodge Degrees, relationships to other aspects of the period of enlightenment etc.? The above sounds to me like it came straight out of Harvard Business School. Several minutes could also be set aside at each regular communication for short talks on the more "esoteric" aspects. I think there are many members who would like to learn about such things, though not necessarily on the research or scholarly level. Edited by droche - September/07/2016 at 3:37pm |
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goomba
Quarryman Joined: February/08/2012 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 408 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 12:25pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
I agree Bro. N. This is my opinion: The Lodge has a very simple and important function, to put on the degrees. Granted it's a bit more than that but basically just that. The other work is done by individuals who take the time to explore what the ritual (degree) has in it or what it means to them. Yes there are some agreed upon things but it's very much an individual journey. |
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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF
Living in the DC area. |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/07/2016 at 5:32am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
The illusions many have about Freemasonry are classically acted out by Mr. Walker (Grimoire). As much as I love the romantic aspect of Freemasonry, the cold hard reality that is experienced continuously tells me that the deeper philosophical aspects so yearned for by many shall not be realized in any lodge save for a very few and even then, only briefly once it is realized that the very structure of Freemasonry simply will not support it. To implement such a focus would mean retooling what a Lodge does. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 8:33pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This would be good topic for a Lodges of Research. In my district, most Lodges do not present any type of 'education' in Lodge. Most members would not be interested in the above topic or like topics in the Lodge. The Lodges open, conduct business, and close. Some (err) - too times all within 20 minutes. ... Lodges of Instruction deal with & teach the GL's uniform works only. Apparently Mr. Grimoire (french usage) has difficulty understanding the true simple nature of Freemasonry and due to his "Idols of the Cave" continue to believe there exist mystical & magic hidden within Freemasonry. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 7:20pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Actually, Grimoire brings up a good point. We really do need to impart to our members the deeper philosophical aspects to our Craft in places like Blue Lodges and Lodges of Instruction, but not to the extent that he thinks we already have.
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 7:13pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Grimoire,
Refer back to your most recent response to me to reference the points you made. My answers are below. I'm not going to get into multiple quotes and take up all sorts of space on the forum and it just causes confusion. You state that you are asking the exact same question you would ask in a lodge to a Worshipful Master. In almost 35 years as a Mason, I have never heard this type of question asked of a Worshipful Master. The average WM would have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, it might have been a Freemason who brought it up but I'm quite certain this came from other studies in which he has been involved. I'm quite certain that it did not originate from his involvement in Freemasonry. Coach can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know why Coach brought it up. I think he might have answered that in his response. "Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read ." I have never heard any of these subjects brought up in any Blue Lodge or Lodge of Instruction and I don't see why they would be or should be. Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy... Some Freemasons delve and have delved into all sorts of deep philosophy and have tried to point out relationships to Freemasonry. It is interesting, fascinating, but not an official part of any "Masonic Curriculum." It is available to Masons but not required. As I've discovered to my disappointment [that most Masons are the average typical person who won't know about the Francis Bacons] on Mastermasons.com forums. Well, I'm disappointed you feel this way. You came to this forum looking to learn about Freemasonry and I now think that perhaps you had some pre-conceived notions about Freemasonry and when the reality differed from the perception, as it usually does, you are disappointed. I'm sorry you feel this way. Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place??? Yes, even if it is a Mason who brought it up in the first place. What about all the required reading to become a Mason?? Even if its their own "opinion"?? What required reading to become a Mason? Beyond learning lectures for the three Blue Lodge degrees, there is no required reading to become a Mason. Some research and traditional observance lodges might have required readings, and I think in order to become a member of a lodge in the Grand Oriente de France, which is not recognized by regular and duly constituted Masonry, there are required readings, but in U.S. Lodges there is no required reading beyond the lectures of the degrees. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:43pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
To answer the question of the opening post" NO!
There are 4 Idols
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:41pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:30pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:21pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:03pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
YOU first made reference to 'Idols' with the title of this thread and the opening post without refeence to where to quote came from! Simpley Look at the top of this thread.
Coach didn't bring up the topic in this thread you did. Just look at who's name is on the first post and who opened this thread.
Apparently you are ignoring your quoted statements to that fact by cutting them from my quotes of your post. So here they are again.
Edited by edwmax - September/06/2016 at 6:10pm |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:48pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Interesting how a Mason with a B.S. in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity cannot answer a simple question? That question being "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? Since it was Coach who first brought up the subject of Baconian Idolatry (out of context) in the first place??? Coach, why are you redirecting the blame of an intelligent question to the readers??? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:04pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Obviously I am not an expert if I am asking a question to your response. Obviously coach you don't seem to know the difference between a question (?) and a statement (!), obviously coach you are intentionally misleading the readers of this forum by your cant & sophistry to direct questions and I hold you responsible since you have both a BS in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity: YOU KNOW BETTER! - so I justifiably conclude your evasions are done on purpose. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 4:58pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
The subject of Baconian Idolotry was not brought up by me in the first place, it was brought up by a Freemason (COACH) as a counter argument.
You don't have to. Just simply answer the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'? And if you don't know, just say so. Why all this confusion over a simple question??? And how is a simple question to a subject first brought up by a Freemason [COACH] trolling????
Then let me correct your misconception. I started a new thread as to not cause another digression within my original thread as started by Coach's answer to my response. I was, and still am, confused by Coach's use of Bacon's 'Idols' to refute my initial statement. It made no sense to me. So again I ask the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? - since I am a big fan of theater! NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling. .... [/QUOTE]
What discussion "outside of the MasterMason.com forums" did I make? Every discussion I've made has been done within MasterMason.com forums?! |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/06/2016 at 4:48pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Why would any simple question generate any {quote}"pi**ing contest"{unquote} in the first place????? I am asking the exact same questions I would ask in a college lecture hall to my professor AND if I were a Freemason - the exact same questions in a lodge to a Worshipful Master. Yet there is one Freemason on this forum who specializes in cant and sophistry and generates a causuical stress on every answer he gives. Yet it was a Freemason who mentioned Bacon's 'Idols of the Market Place' in the first place. It was my own research that discovered three other Baconian 'Idols'. If Baconian Idolatry has nothing to do with Freemasonry, why did a Freemason quote Bacon as if there were no connection?
O.K. - so why did a Freemason (COACH) bring it up to prove his point as a counter argument?????? All COACH did was pique my interest.
Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy. Which is what attracts me to Masonry. Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read (including Dr. Nagy's series).
As I've discovered to my disappointment on Mastermasons.com forums.
Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place???
What about all the required reading to become a Mason?? Even if its their own "opinion"?? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 8:57pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Grimoire, you did mention a few posts back that you were looking for an answer about Idols of the Theater from "real" Freemasons. (I am paraphrasing.) I personally enjoy the thoughts and discussions you bring to this forum (but not the pi**ing contests some of them seem to generate), but you need to know that things like Francis Bacon and Idols of the Theater are not part of Masonry. Masonry, in and of itself, does not get into such deep philosophy. Most Masons are the typical, average person who won't know the details of the Francis Bacons or what have you. If brought up, most Masons would have an interest in learning something of such things, but they are not going to delve into them like a researcher or scholar. To be sure, there are some Masons who delve into deep philosophies, but if you have a question about such a thing, and think, gee, I'll bet a Mason could answer this... Chances are he can't and would not be expected to.
I know you spend a lot of time at BPL where there is a tremendous amount of scholarly information about Freemasonry and that is fine, but don't expect your everyday run-of-the-mill Mason to be on that level. Masonry encourages love of learning of all types but most Masons work, have families and Masonic responsibilities, which is just as important to Freemasonry. Scholarly matters just aren't within the grasp of most of us. No offense intended, I know you want to know about real Freemasonry. What I have just described is about as real as it gets. This is just an opinion, of course. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 6:38pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 5:15pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Me too! It's interesting how GrimoireA3 wants us to cooperate with his efforts to evade doing the Work. He might perfectly fit in a Lodge where entitlements are the order of the day. |
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goomba
Quarryman Joined: February/08/2012 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 408 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 4:35pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
It was pointed out to me that my post was made in error. For that I apologize.
Edited by goomba - September/03/2016 at 6:05pm |
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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF
Living in the DC area. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 4:05pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
No where in the above quote post have you cited any reference to Bacon's writings whereby the context of his usage of the terms maybe understood. I, for one, will not research ALL of Bacon's writings to fine said terms.
I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements
....
I didn't understand the question, because there was no reference given where Bacon wrote or made comments using said terms. As far as I know, Bacon never made any such statement using the said terms. Therefore, any discussion of the terms is purely hypothetical. I will not do research work for you. I have other things to do. Edited by edwmax - September/03/2016 at 4:12pm |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 11:16am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
You're the expert. You tell us! |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:50am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:46am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Why would Sir Francis Bacon list that along with his 'Idols' if it is accepted? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:43am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Hi droche, Thanks for this request. In a previous thread Coach used the term 'Idols of the Marketplace' in a manner in which I did not understand. Coach has a strong tendency for being 'out of context' and for 'non sequiturs'. So I researched Idols of the Marketplace, and there were three more 'Idols' included. I am very familiar with Sir Francis Bacon, and I am familiar with his works. 'Idols of the Theater' confused me since it read as if Bacon were ridiculing 'theater' as bunk. I've read something similar from the 17th century critics of Shakespeare and of actors. So quick as a bunny I posed this question on a new topic - "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater?'" in hopes of a clear explanation from the source which produced the expression in the first place. But why is a simple question generating confusion? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:34am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Exactly what I asked the question since it was a Mason, coach, who first mentioned it on a previous thread. The Wikipedia answer was typically vague & nebulous, so I thought real Freemasons could give an insightful explanation. And I'm still waiting for a Masonic explanation to a simple question. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 8:18pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
I think I am beginning to understand. A real world example would help.
I would also like to ask, Grimoire, why did you ask the question in the first place? Did you have something specific in mind? |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 6:40pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
A façade that is accepted as real without question and supported as if it were. |
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 6:36pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
What then did Bacon mean by "theater?" Maybe my head is thick on this one.
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 2:23pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
The fog is think because theater in the context that S.F. Bacon used it doesn't relate to plays, acts and acting. The poster decided to post a question that was a play on words and in doing so, spread a think layer of fog on any effort to make sense of what theater was actually being alluded to by S.F. Bacon. It's a bogus question with only one worthwhile response: Nope. As it relates to Freemasonry, too much is done in the name of tradition or because GL said so and very few dare to question well-established dogma that should if we were indeed practicing a progressive science. |
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droche
Quarryman Joined: March/03/2008 Location: Worcester, Mass Status: Offline Points: 2243 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 2:10pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||
I am trying to keep this thread on track, perhaps naively so, and I want to learn about Bacon's "Idols of the Theater." I've asked for some context about the term. Let me put it in another way: Can someone give a real world example?
I asked how it might relate to Freemasonry, if at all. I received the answer: Two phrases apply: 1) Because Tradition 2) Because Grand Lodge I don't understand that answer. Perhaps because I am not on as high an intellectual level as others, I cannot understand any of this. It's like I'm trying to find my way through a thick fog. The question was asked, "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?" Bogus to me means fake, but fake in a misleading way. Plays, acts and acting are inherently fake but not all are meant to mislead so no, according to my definition of "bogus.," they are not. From what has been said here about Idols of the Theater, it is a fallacy of logic that creeps in having an adverse effect on scientific methods. How does that relate to plays, acts and acting? The fog thickens. |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 9:53am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Brother Max, You'd think a guy with such high-falutin' training would have been able to answer all this for himself, and to provide solid responses to those questions posed. I put all his ramblings in the troll category too. The guy needs to turn his microscope back upon himself first. Is he not aware of that timber in his eye? F&S, Coach |
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GrimoireA3
Banned Joined: May/05/2013 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 625 |
Posted: September/02/2016 at 9:08am | ||||||||||||||||||||||
NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling. Again, I have no reason to troll. In the past three years not once has any question I've asked been ignored or not answered. The problem is with pseudo-intellectual posturing and circumlocutions passing for truth - which I have been trained to analyze and expose and correct - and I cannot suffer in the middle of a discussion. P.S.: Is there anyway these posts can be numbered? So other posts may be cited? |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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