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Topic ClosedWhat did Bacon mean by "Idols of the Theater"?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And you're still avoiding.
I clearly addressed it in my very first post on your thread. So, continue in your trolling ways. Nothing shall change till you do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:27am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And you're still avoiding.
I clearly addressed it in my very first post on your thread. So, continue in your trolling ways. Nothing shall change till you do.


Rationalizing is another type of avoiding.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:51am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Why would any simple question generate any {quote}"pi**ing contest"{unquote} in the first place?????


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Well, for starters, you've been pretty pissy and perhaps we are merely following your lead.


Pot calling the kettle black again.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am asking the exact same questions I would ask in a college lecture hall to my professor AND if I were a Freemason - the exact same questions in a lodge to a Worshipful Master.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Man are you delusional.


Pot calling the kettle black once again. You're the one who thinks myth should be accepted as reality?


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You have no idea what we do in lodge.


No kidding. I've been saying that for three years on Mastermason.com forums!!! I've never pretended to know what Masons do inside the privacy of their lodge.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Yet there is one Freemason on this forum who specializes in cant and sophistry and generates a causuical stress on every answer he gives.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Survey says it's...


Q.E.D. says its coach.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Yet it was a Freemason who mentioned Bacon's 'Idols of the Market Place' in the first place. It was my own research that discovered three other Baconian 'Idols'. If Baconian Idolatry has nothing to do with Freemasonry, why did a Freemason quote Bacon as if there were no connection?


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Perhaps it was simply germane to the conversation.


Perhaps not. Perhaps you were quoting a concept you do not fully understand, as you do constantly with Wikipedia, to appear knowledgeable in front of the less educated forum readers???

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

O.K. - so why did a Freemason (COACH) bring it up to prove his point as a counter argument??????


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Perhaps it was not a counterpoint at all. Perhaps it was merely food for thought.


Or perhaps you just don't know?   


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

All COACH did was pique my interest.
AWESOME!!!!!
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

No. It truly doesn't. You've been drinking far too much Kool-Aid.


No, I've been reading far too much history, manuals, lodge minutes, biographies, anti-Mason tracts, pro-Mason tracts, Masonic bibles, and novels all about the Freemasons for the past three years.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Which is what attracts me to Masonry.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I hope you realize by now that "Freemasonry" and "Masonry" are two entirely different things.


And I hope you realized that you haven't proved that in any of your books, especially THE CRAFT UNMASKED.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read (including Dr. Nagy's series).


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

And you still think that "Freemasonry" and "Masonry" are the same thing? You might want to reread "Building Perpends" and "The Craft Unmasked!" a few more times.


I did, and it was a pleasure except for the illogic, blatant rationalizations, poor grammar, and pedantry. Stick to Engineering and Divinity studies and leave the history to historians.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

As I've discovered to my disappointment on Mastermasons.com forums.
Just here?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place???
Yep. Even if we do.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

What about all the required reading to become a Mason??
What required reading? The Petition?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Even if its their own "opinion"??


[QUOTE=coach]Yep. Most of it is.


Yep. Even yours.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:54am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And you're still avoiding.


[QUOTE=coach]I clearly addressed it in my very first post on your thread. So, continue in your trolling ways. Nothing shall change till you do.


No you did not clearly address the topic question in your very first post, you once again relied on an obtuse definition from Wiki or some other site rather than draw upon your own knowledge of the subject. Come on 'fess up Coach - you don't know!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:20am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

You state that you are asking the exact same question you would ask in a lodge to a Worshipful Master. In almost 35 years as a Mason, I have never heard this type of question asked of a Worshipful Master.


Hi droche,

Thanks for being the only Masonic sane voice of reason on this topic thread.

Actually, if you read my post a bit more carefully, you will see I clearly wrote 'if' I were a Mason. That is a hypothetical! In English it is referred to as a 'conditional' used to express wishes or hypothetical situations. Since I have no idea of what occurs inside the privacy of a Masonic lodge I expressed a hypothetical 'if I was' a Mason - then I would certainly ask some pointed questions to whoever is in charge of the joint.

But maybe its time those questions were asked?




Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

The average WM would have no idea what you are talking about.


I find that disappointing.

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, it might have been a Freemason who brought it up but I'm quite certain this came from other studies in which he has been involved.


Coach is college educated and a professional [just like me] - he knows better. And that is the rub. He must be made accountable for what he avers.


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I'm quite certain that it did not originate from his involvement in Freemasonry. Coach can correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't know why Coach brought it up. I think he might have answered that in his response.


You're a good man droche, but I don't think coach needs an advocate, he can defend himself - which he does a poor job.



Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

You came to this forum looking to learn about Freemasonry and I now think that perhaps you had some pre-conceived notions about Freemasonry and when the reality differed from the perception, as it usually does, you are disappointed. I'm sorry you feel this way.


As I explained when I first visited the forum three years ago, I thought Freemasonry was a rich man's elks club, and that was it. It was my discovery of a Masonic Bible which further piqued my interest in Masonry, and I came to this forum as a blank slate with no pre-conceived notions: as an example: I never heard of an 'anti-Mason' before I visited these forums (why would there be an anti-Mason in the first place?).

My disappointed, frankly, is the lack of sophistication in the responses from various Masons and the seemingly lack of education: most of the responses appear to be from practical men rather than from scholars. If Freemasonry pushes the 'self-made man' concept from the 1900s, then that if a great thing. I am currently reading a good book: 'THOMAS DUNCKERLEY: A Remarkable Freemason' (1982) by Ron Chudley, which outlines the career of a 18th century Englishman who rose from a gunner's mate to a high ranking and influential Mason in Great Britain - again a hagiography of a self-made man.



Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What required reading to become a Mason? Beyond learning lectures for the three Blue Lodge degrees, there is no required reading to become a Mason.


But those lectures is required reading. And don't take yourself for granted, those lectures/required reading is deep philosophy!!! Which what struck me from delving into the primary Freemason literature here at the Boston Public Library in the first place (good stuff to read!!).


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

and I think in order to become a member of a lodge in the Grand Oriente de France, which is not recognized by regular and duly constituted Masonry, there are required readings,


So that's the lodge I will have to join?


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

but in U.S. Lodges there is no required reading beyond the lectures of the degrees.


Again, the required lectures are required reading (because the lectures are also printed?).

Again, droche, thank you for this intelligent rebuttal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:37am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Now that other forum members here sees your question for what it is, I'll make my reply. .... You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling!    ... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.   ... Again that is Trolling.



Here's the location of the origin. Please read carefully,

From the topic question thread: Is Immortality Possible If Man Has No Soul?

Coach Posted: August/31/2016 at 12:23 pm.

Please read what he states and that's why I started a new thread on Baconian Idolatry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:39am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

No I am discussing.  ...But none of this was mentioned in answer to my topic question.  Why?  Again, gentlemen if you don't understand the question or don't know the answer to the question - just admit it.


[QUOTE=coach] Enjoy the silence.


Your silence is deafening.

Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/08/2016 at 10:39am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 10:42am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I admit- I don't understand the question and don't know the answer to it. Never heard of "Idol's of the Theater" and have only vaguely heard of Sir Francis Bacon. So I have read what has been written about Idols of the Theater in this thread but it is difficult for me to understand without some context. Could someone put it in to some sort of context? I know I could look it up but if you want to discuss, then let's discuss. Give me some context about Idols of the Theater. I would like to know how it relates to Freemasonry, if at all.


The origin of this thread:

From the topic question: Is Immortality Possible If Man Has No Soul?

Coach Posted: August/31/2016 at 12:23 pm

Please read post carefully.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 1:22pm
This has been previously discussed and as I stated, I am more clear about it now. You also wrote that if we did not know an answer, just admit it. That is what I was doing. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 2:13pm
Grimoire,

Referring back to your response from my previous post:

i did not misread your post. I knew you were presenting a hypothetical situation. My response is the same. You should be able to tell from another post I made, I too find it disappointing that all Masons, not just Worshipful Masters, are not given more education in so-called "esoteric" matters. That being said, assuming such education were given, it would still be a stretch to think that something along the lines of the writings of Francis Bacon would be included. I also wrote in another post that most Masons have families, work and the day to day working of the lodge, which are just as important as the "esoteric." I don't know how else to put it. Freemasonry simply doesn't get as "deep" as you are expecting or seem to think it should.

I am not advocating for Coach. I simply said I was quite certain that his source of knowledge of certain matters came from outside of Freemasonry. I can't see where I am advocating, just clarifying. I also gave him room to comment on his own if he so desired.

My disappointed [sic], frankly, is the lack of sophistication in the responses from various Masons and the seemingly lack of education: most of the responses appear to be from practical men rather than from scholars. Frankly, this is where I get frustrated. For three years I and others have been trying to explain to you that Freemasonry is more practical than scholarly. There certainly are scholarly aspects, and perhaps these should be emphasized more, but it is never going to rise to the level that you appear to think it should, nor should it. Freemasonry attempts to reach out to men from all walks of life. To make it a purely scholarly organization would, in my opinion, would make it elitist. There are Masons who would like to see it that way but I am not among them. We have Lodges of Research a Mason can join if that aspect interests them.

So that's the lodge I will have to join?[Grand Orient de France] I don't know if there are any lodges in the local area under the Grande Oriente de France. A few years ago some clandestine lodges elsewhere in the US affiliated with the GOdF, but I think they soon left or were kicked out. In any event, the decision is up to you, but I don't recommend it.

I don't know what else to tell you. Bear in mind that there are many "scholarly" Masons out there, but they don't all come to forums. Have you searched for other Masonic forums where the discussions might be more along the lines you seek? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.


A façade that is accepted as real without question and supported as if it were.


Resembles a psychiatric explanation for a delusion or delusional thinking?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:28pm
[QUOTE=droche]  I am trying to keep this thread on track, perhaps naively so, and I want to learn about Bacon's "Idols of the Theater." I've asked for some context about the term. Let me put it in another way: Can someone give a real world example?

I asked how it might relate to Freemasonry, if at all. I received the answer:  


Two phrases apply:

1) Because Tradition
2) Because Grand Lodge

I don't understand that answer.

Nobody understands the answer. Thanks droche for asking these questions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


To answer the question of the opening post"  NO!

There are 4 Idols
  • Idols of the Tribe:    aka: Fallacies of Human kind
  • Idols of the Cave:  aka: Fallacies of the individual Mind
  • Idols of the Marketplace:      aka: Fallacies of Semantics or Rhetoric
  • Idols of the Theater:       aka: Fallacies due to sophistry and false learning & false Prophets/teachers
These are from Bacon's Novum Organum.    My reference is Mannly Hall ; http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm
 


Hi edwmax,

Thank you very much for going through the time and trouble posting this nice set of definitions. But I already came across them and did not fully comprehend their meaning as applied to real life situations, particularly to discussion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

[QUOTE=droche]  I am trying to keep this thread on track, perhaps naively so, and I want to learn about Bacon's "Idols of the Theater." I've asked for some context about the term. Let me put it in another way: Can someone give a real world example?

I asked how it might relate to Freemasonry, if at all. I received the answer:  


Two phrases apply:

1) Because Tradition
2) Because Grand Lodge

I don't understand that answer.

Nobody understands the answer. Thanks droche for asking these questions.

But he answered it, or clarified it and I do understand it now. I had to understand "Idols of the Theater" before I could understand the answer. I still don't fully understand Idols of the Theater nut my understanding is better now.


Edited by droche - September/08/2016 at 5:10pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2016 at 9:40pm
This thread is confusing.  The opening question (title) and post implies a discussion of Bacon's Idols. However, the OP bashes replies which does give a definitive answer.   And would not give a reference to where he read Bacon's statements (until today).    ... The fact is the OP was looking for a definition to Coach's use of a Bostonian reference to the 'Idols of the Marketplace' in another thread and apparently thought all Masons would understand the reference.  ... This looks like a PIssING contest between the OP & Coach.

This thread seems to have been 'on topic'; 'off topic'; 'on topic'; 'off topic' again and again. In fact it has never been 'on topic' because it was about a comment made in another thread.

This thread is LOCKED!  and will be hidden in 24 hours.

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