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GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: What did Bacon mean by "Idols of the Theater"?
    Posted: August/30/2016 at 3:43pm
Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2016 at 6:22am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Nope.

Idola theatri (singular Idolum theatri) is a type of tendency towards logical fallacy or error, normally translated as "Idols of the Theatre." The Latin was coined by Sir Francis Bacon in his Novum Organum—one of the earliest treatises arguing the case for the logic and method of modern science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idola_theatri

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace.

Idols of the Marketplace are errors arising from the false significance bestowed upon words, and in this classification Bacon anticipated the modern science of semantics. According to him it is the popular belief that men form their thoughts into words in order to communicate their opinions to others, but often words arise as substitutes for thoughts and men think they have won an argument because they have out talked their opponents. The constant impact of words variously used without attention to their true meaning only in turn condition the understanding and breed fallacies. Words often betray their own purpose, obscuring the very thoughts they are designed to express.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2016 at 10:53am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Nope.

Idola theatri (singular Idolum theatri) is a type of tendency towards logical fallacy or error, normally translated as "Idols of the Theatre." The Latin was coined by Sir Francis Bacon in his Novum Organum—one of the earliest treatises arguing the case for the logic and method of modern science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idola_theatri

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace.

Idols of the Marketplace are errors arising from the false significance bestowed upon words, and in this classification Bacon anticipated the modern science of semantics. According to him it is the popular belief that men form their thoughts into words in order to communicate their opinions to others, but often words arise as substitutes for thoughts and men think they have won an argument because they have out talked their opponents. The constant impact of words variously used without attention to their true meaning only in turn condition the understanding and breed fallacies. Words often betray their own purpose, obscuring the very thoughts they are designed to express.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm




Could you kindly put it in your own words?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2016 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Nope.

Idola theatri (singular Idolum theatri) is a type of tendency towards logical fallacy or error, normally translated as "Idols of the Theatre." The Latin was coined by Sir Francis Bacon in his Novum Organum—one of the earliest treatises arguing the case for the logic and method of modern science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idola_theatri

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace.

Idols of the Marketplace are errors arising from the false significance bestowed upon words, and in this classification Bacon anticipated the modern science of semantics. According to him it is the popular belief that men form their thoughts into words in order to communicate their opinions to others, but often words arise as substitutes for thoughts and men think they have won an argument because they have out talked their opponents. The constant impact of words variously used without attention to their true meaning only in turn condition the understanding and breed fallacies. Words often betray their own purpose, obscuring the very thoughts they are designed to express.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm




What part of "nope" and "Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace" did you not understand?

Edited by coach - August/31/2016 at 12:12pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2016 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Nope.

Idola theatri (singular Idolum theatri) is a type of tendency towards logical fallacy or error, normally translated as "Idols of the Theatre." The Latin was coined by Sir Francis Bacon in his Novum Organum—one of the earliest treatises arguing the case for the logic and method of modern science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idola_theatri

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm

Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace.

Idols of the Marketplace are errors arising from the false significance bestowed upon words, and in this classification Bacon anticipated the modern science of semantics. According to him it is the popular belief that men form their thoughts into words in order to communicate their opinions to others, but often words arise as substitutes for thoughts and men think they have won an argument because they have out talked their opponents. The constant impact of words variously used without attention to their true meaning only in turn condition the understanding and breed fallacies. Words often betray their own purpose, obscuring the very thoughts they are designed to express.

http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm




What part of "nope" and "Not to be confused, as you have here by interpreting "theater" as you have, with Idols of the Marketplace" did you not understand?


The typically vague and obtuse Wikipedia part. Could you explain it in you own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 6:35am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.


Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 8:22am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.


Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.

In other words, you don't know?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:22am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.


Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.


In other words, you don't know?

You're still trolling...

Edited by coach - September/01/2016 at 9:24am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:32am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.


Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.


In other words, you don't know?

You're still trolling...

No I am discussing.  And Wikipedia is not a legitimate source for an answer to a concept.  So I went to Amazon.com and received the answer I was hoping to get from Mastermason.com forums where stodgy Baconian empiricism 'Idols' was first mentioned.  Sir Francis Bacon was more empirical than Hume (if that is possible) which is as dangerous as dogmatism.  But I had to go somewhere else to read both positive and negative comments on Baconian Idolotry (which has very little to do with debate, and more on the scientific method as a comment on the syllogism as found in Aristotle's ORGANON).

But none of this was mentioned in answer to my topic question.  Why?  Again, gentlemen if you don't understand the question or don't know the answer to the question - just admit it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:38am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

No I am discussing.  ...But none of this was mentioned in answer to my topic question.  Why?  Again, gentlemen if you don't understand the question or don't know the answer to the question - just admit it.

Enjoy the silence. Trolling is not what I want to support. You're no longer worth commenting on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 8:50pm
I admit- I don't understand the question and don't know the answer to it. Never heard of "Idol's of the Theater" and have only vaguely heard of Sir Francis Bacon. So I have read what has been written about Idols of the Theater in this thread but it is difficult for me to understand without some context. Could someone put it in to some sort of context? I know I could look it up but if you want to discuss, then let's discuss. Give me some context about Idols of the Theater. I would like to know how it relates to Freemasonry, if at all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

...I would like to know how it relates to Freemasonry, if at all.


Two phrases apply:

1) Because Tradition
2) Because Grand Lodge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2016 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:


Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 8:34am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Now that other forum members here sees your question for what it is, I'll make my reply. .... You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling!    ... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.   ... Again that is Trolling.


Edited by edwmax - September/02/2016 at 8:37am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 8:36am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling!    ... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.   ... Again that is Trolling.
I'm delighted to know that I am not the only one seeing this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 9:08am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?


Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling!


The question was: "WHAT DID BACON MEAN BY 'IDOLS OF THE THEATER'?

The follow up was: "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?"

And neither of these valid questions were answered!!! Not trolling. I have no reason to troll.


[QUOTE=edwmax]... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.


NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.




Again, I have no reason to troll. In the past three years not once has any question I've asked been ignored or not answered. The problem is with pseudo-intellectual posturing and circumlocutions passing for truth - which I have been trained to analyze and expose and correct - and I cannot suffer in the middle of a discussion.


P.S.: Is there anyway these posts can be numbered? So other posts may be cited?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 9:53am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

You asked a question WITHOUT any context of usage or reference from where the term(s) were specifically used by Bacon.    That's Trolling!
The question was: "WHAT DID BACON MEAN BY 'IDOLS OF THE THEATER'?

The follow up was: "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?"

And neither of these valid questions were answered!!! Not trolling. I have no reason to troll.[QUOTE=edwmax]... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.
NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.

Again, I have no reason to troll. In the past three years not once has any question I've asked been ignored or not answered. The problem is with pseudo-intellectual posturing and circumlocutions passing for truth - which I have been trained to analyze and expose and correct - and I cannot suffer in the middle of a discussion.

P.S.: Is there anyway these posts can be numbered? So other posts may be cited?

Brother Max,

You'd think a guy with such high-falutin' training would have been able to answer all this for himself, and to provide solid responses to those questions posed.

I put all his ramblings in the troll category too. The guy needs to turn his microscope back upon himself first. Is he not aware of that timber in his eye?

F&S,

Coach
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 2:10pm
 I am trying to keep this thread on track, perhaps naively so, and I want to learn about Bacon's "Idols of the Theater." I've asked for some context about the term. Let me put it in another way: Can someone give a real world example?

I asked how it might relate to Freemasonry, if at all. I received the answer:  

Two phrases apply:

1) Because Tradition
2) Because Grand Lodge

I don't understand that answer.

Perhaps because I am not on as high an intellectual level as others, I cannot understand any of this. It's like I'm trying to find my way through a thick fog.

The question was asked, "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?"

Bogus
to me means fake, but fake in a misleading way. Plays, acts and acting are inherently fake but not all are meant to mislead so no, according to my definition of "bogus.," they are not.

From what has been said here about Idols of the Theater, it is a fallacy of logic that creeps in having an adverse effect on scientific methods. How does that relate to plays, acts and acting? The fog thickens.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

... How does that relate to plays, acts and acting? The fog thickens.

The fog is think because theater in the context that S.F. Bacon used it doesn't relate to plays, acts and acting. The poster decided to post a question that was a play on words and in doing so, spread a think layer of fog on any effort to make sense of what theater was actually being alluded to by S.F. Bacon.

It's a bogus question with only one worthwhile response: Nope.

As it relates to Freemasonry, too much is done in the name of tradition or because GL said so and very few dare to question well-established dogma that should if we were indeed practicing a progressive science.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 6:36pm
What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.


A façade that is accepted as real without question and supported as if it were.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2016 at 8:18pm
I think I am beginning to understand. A real world example would help.

I would also like to ask, Grimoire, why did you ask the question in the first place? Did you have something specific in mind? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:34am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.



Exactly what I asked the question since it was a Mason, coach, who first mentioned it on a previous thread. The Wikipedia answer was typically vague & nebulous, so I thought real Freemasons could give an insightful explanation.

And I'm still waiting for a Masonic explanation to a simple question.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:43am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I would also like to ask, Grimoire, why did you ask the question in the first place? Did you have something specific in mind?


Hi droche,

Thanks for this request.

In a previous thread Coach used the term 'Idols of the Marketplace' in a manner in which I did not understand. Coach has a strong tendency for being 'out of context' and for 'non sequiturs'.

So I researched Idols of the Marketplace, and there were three more 'Idols' included. I am very familiar with Sir Francis Bacon, and I am familiar with his works. 

'Idols of the Theater' confused me since it read as if Bacon were ridiculing 'theater' as bunk. I've read something similar from the 17th century critics of Shakespeare and of actors.

So quick as a bunny I posed this question on a new topic - "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater?'" in hopes of a clear explanation from the source which produced the expression in the first place.

But why is a simple question generating confusion?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:46am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.


A façade that is accepted as real without question and supported as if it were.


Why would Sir Francis Bacon list that along with his 'Idols' if it is accepted?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 10:50am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

... How does that relate to plays, acts and acting? The fog thickens.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

The fog is think because theater in the context that S.F. Bacon used it doesn't relate to plays, acts and acting.


O.K., here is the point where a clear explanation is appropriate.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

The poster decided to post a question that was a play on words and in doing so, spread a think layer of fog on any effort to make sense of what theater was actually being alluded to by S.F. Bacon.


Paranoia .

It's a bogus question with only one worthwhile response: Nope.

As it relates to Freemasonry, too much is done in the name of tradition or because GL said so and very few dare to question well-established dogma that should if we were indeed practicing a progressive science.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 11:16am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.


A façade that is accepted as real without question and supported as if it were.


Why would Sir Francis Bacon list that along with his 'Idols' if it is accepted?

You're the expert. You tell us!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

....

The question was: "WHAT DID BACON MEAN BY 'IDOLS OF THE THEATER'?

The follow up was: "Does Idols of the Theater mean that plays and acts and acting are all bogus?"

And neither of these valid questions were answered!!! Not trolling. I have no reason to troll.

....


No where in the above quote post have you cited any reference to Bacon's writings whereby the context of his usage of the terms maybe understood.    I, for one, will not research ALL of Bacon's writings to fine said terms.   

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

....
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.


NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.
.... 


I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements 

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


....

No I am discussing.  And Wikipedia is not a legitimate source for an answer to a concept.  So I went to Amazon.com and received the answer I was hoping to get from Mastermason.com forums where stodgy Baconian empiricism 'Idols' was first mentioned.  Sir Francis Bacon was more empirical than Hume (if that is possible) which is as dangerous as dogmatism.  But I had to go somewhere else to read both positive and negative comments on Baconian Idolotry (which has very little to do with debate, and more on the scientific method as a comment on the syllogism as found in Aristotle's ORGANON).
...  


....

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


....

But none of this was mentioned in answer to my topic question.  Why?  Again, gentlemen if you don't understand the question or don't know the answer to the question - just admit it.


I didn't understand the question, because there was no reference given where Bacon wrote or made comments using said terms.  As far as I know, Bacon never made any such statement using the said terms.  Therefore, any discussion of the terms is purely hypothetical.    I will not do research work for you. I have other things to do.




Edited by edwmax - September/03/2016 at 4:12pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 4:35pm
It was pointed out to me that my post was made in error.  For that I apologize.


Edited by goomba - September/03/2016 at 6:05pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

I will not do research work for you. I have other things to do.

Me too! It's interesting how GrimoireA3 wants us to cooperate with his efforts to evade doing the Work. He might perfectly fit in a Lodge where entitlements are the order of the day.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 6:38pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2016 at 8:57pm
Grimoire, you did mention a few posts back that you were looking for an answer about Idols of the Theater from "real" Freemasons. (I am paraphrasing.) I personally enjoy the thoughts and discussions you bring to this forum (but not the pi**ing contests some of them seem to generate), but you need to know that things like Francis Bacon and Idols of the Theater are not part of Masonry. Masonry, in and of itself, does not get into such deep philosophy. Most Masons are the typical, average person who won't know the details of the Francis Bacons or what have you. If brought up, most Masons would have an interest in learning something of such things, but they are not going to delve into them like a researcher or scholar. To be sure, there are some Masons who delve into deep philosophies, but if you have a question about such a thing, and think, gee, I'll bet a Mason could answer this... Chances are he can't and would not be expected to.

I know you spend a lot of time at BPL where there is a tremendous amount of scholarly information about Freemasonry and that is fine, but don't expect your everyday run-of-the-mill Mason to be on that level. Masonry encourages love of learning of all types but most Masons work, have families and Masonic responsibilities, which is just as important to Freemasonry. Scholarly matters just aren't within the grasp of most of us. No offense intended, I know you want to know about real Freemasonry. What I have just described is about as real as it gets. This is just an opinion, of course.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire, you did mention a few posts back that you were looking for an answer about Idols of the Theater from "real" Freemasons. (I am paraphrasing.) I personally enjoy the thoughts and discussions you bring to this forum (but not the pi**ing contests some of them seem to generate),


Why would any simple question generate any {quote}"pi**ing contest"{unquote} in the first place????? I am asking the exact same questions I would ask in a college lecture hall to my professor AND if I were a Freemason - the exact same questions in a lodge to a Worshipful Master. Yet there is one Freemason on this forum who specializes in cant and sophistry and generates a causuical stress on every answer he gives.

Yet it was a Freemason who mentioned Bacon's 'Idols of the Market Place' in the first place. It was my own research that discovered three other Baconian 'Idols'. If Baconian Idolatry has nothing to do with Freemasonry, why did a Freemason quote Bacon as if there were no connection?


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

but you need to know that things like Francis Bacon and Idols of the Theater are not part of Masonry.


O.K. - so why did a Freemason (COACH) bring it up to prove his point as a counter argument?????? All COACH did was pique my interest.



Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Masonry, in and of itself, does not get into such deep philosophy.


Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy. Which is what attracts me to Masonry. Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read (including Dr. Nagy's series).

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Most Masons are the typical, average person who won't know the details of the Francis Bacons or what have you.


As I've discovered to my disappointment on Mastermasons.com forums.


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

If brought up, most Masons would have an interest in learning something of such things, but they are not going to delve into them like a researcher or scholar. To be sure, there are some Masons who delve into deep philosophies, but if you have a question about such a thing, and think, gee, I'll bet a Mason could answer this... Chances are he can't and would not be expected to.


Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place???

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I know you spend a lot of time at BPL where there is a tremendous amount of scholarly information about Freemasonry and that is fine, but don't expect your everyday run-of-the-mill Mason to be on that level. Masonry encourages love of learning of all types but most Masons work, have families and Masonic responsibilities, which is just as important to Freemasonry. Scholarly matters just aren't within the grasp of most of us. No offense intended, I know you want to know about real Freemasonry. What I have just described is about as real as it gets. This is just an opinion, of course.


What about all the required reading to become a Mason?? Even if its their own "opinion"??
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

No where in the above quote post have you cited any reference to Bacon's
writings whereby the context of his usage of the terms maybe understood.


The subject of Baconian Idolotry was not brought up by me in the first place, it was brought up by a Freemason (COACH) as a counter argument.


Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

   I, for one, will not research ALL of Bacon's writings to fine said
terms.


You don't have to. Just simply answer the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'? And if you don't know, just say so. Why all this confusion over a simple question??? And how is a simple question to a subject first brought up by a Freemason [COACH] trolling????   


Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.


Then let me correct your misconception. I started a new thread as to not cause another digression within my original thread as started by Coach's answer to my response. I was, and still am, confused by Coach's use of Bacon's 'Idols' to refute my initial statement. It made no sense to me. So again I ask the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? - since I am a big fan of theater!

NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.
....  [/QUOTE]

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements


What discussion "outside of the MasterMason.com forums" did I make? Every discussion I've made has been done within MasterMason.com forums?! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

What then did Bacon mean by "theater?"  Maybe my head is thick on this one.


A façade that is accepted as real without question and supported as if it were.


Why would Sir Francis Bacon list that along with his 'Idols' if it is accepted?



[QUOTE=coach]You're the expert. You tell us!


Obviously I am not an expert if I am asking a question to your response. Obviously coach you don't seem to know the difference between a question (?) and a statement (!), obviously coach you are intentionally misleading the readers of this forum by your cant & sophistry to direct questions and I hold you responsible since you have both a BS in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity: YOU KNOW BETTER! - so I justifiably conclude your evasions are done on purpose.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

I will not do research work for you. I have other things to do.

Me too! It's interesting how GrimoireA3 wants us to cooperate with his efforts to evade doing the Work. He might perfectly fit in a Lodge where entitlements are the order of the day.


Interesting how a Mason with a B.S. in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity cannot answer a simple question? That question being "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'??

Since it was Coach who first brought up the subject of Baconian Idolatry (out of context) in the first place??? Coach, why are you redirecting the blame of an intelligent question to the readers???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

No where in the above quote post have you cited any reference to Bacon's
writings whereby the context of his usage of the terms maybe understood.


The subject of Baconian Idolotry was not brought up by me in the first place, it was brought up by a Freemason (COACH) as a counter argument.   
....


YOU first made reference to 'Idols' with the title of this thread and the opening post without refeence to where to quote came from!  Simpley Look at the top of this thread.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

   I, for one, will not research ALL of Bacon's writings to fine said
terms.


You don't have to. Just simply answer the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'? And if you don't know, just say so. Why all this confusion over a simple question??? And how is a simple question to a subject first brought up by a Freemason [COACH] trolling????   

...


Coach didn't bring up the topic in this thread you did.   Just look at who's name is on the first post and who opened this thread.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.


Then let me correct your misconception. I started a new thread as to not cause another digression within my original thread as started by Coach's answer to my response. I was, and still am, confused by Coach's use of Bacon's 'Idols' to refute my initial statement. It made no sense to me. So again I ask the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? - since I am a big fan of theater!

NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.
.... 

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements


What discussion "outside of the MasterMason.com forums" did I make? Every discussion I've made has been done within MasterMason.com forums?! 



Apparently you are ignoring your quoted statements to that fact by cutting them from my quotes of your post.   So here they are again.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


....

    ...                  So I went to Amazon.com and received the answer I was hoping to get from Mastermason.com forums where stodgy Baconian empiricism 'Idols' was first mentioned.    ...      But I had to go somewhere else to read both positive and negative comments on Baconian Idolotry    ....
...  



Edited by edwmax - September/06/2016 at 6:10pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Why would any simple question generate any {quote}"pi**ing contest"{unquote} in the first place?????
Well, for starters, you've been pretty pissy and perhaps we are merely following your lead.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am asking the exact same questions I would ask in a college lecture hall to my professor AND if I were a Freemason - the exact same questions in a lodge to a Worshipful Master.
Man are you delusional. You have no idea what we do in lodge.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Yet there is one Freemason on this forum who specializes in cant and sophistry and generates a causuical stress on every answer he gives.
Survey says it's...
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Yet it was a Freemason who mentioned Bacon's 'Idols of the Market Place' in the first place. It was my own research that discovered three other Baconian 'Idols'. If Baconian Idolatry has nothing to do with Freemasonry, why did a Freemason quote Bacon as if there were no connection?
Perhaps it was simply germane to the conversation.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

O.K. - so why did a Freemason (COACH) bring it up to prove his point as a counter argument??????
Perhaps it was not a counterpoint at all. Perhaps it was merely food for thought.   
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

All COACH did was pique my interest.
AWESOME!!!!!
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy.
No. It truly doesn't. You've been drinking far too much Kool-Aid.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Which is what attracts me to Masonry.
I hope you realize by now that "Freemasonry" and "Masonry" are two entirely different things.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read (including Dr. Nagy's series).
And you still think that "Freemasonry" and "Masonry" are the same thing? You might want to reread "Building Perpends" and "The Craft Unmasked!" a few more times.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

As I've discovered to my disappointment on Mastermasons.com forums.
Just here?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place???
Yep. Even if we do.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

What about all the required reading to become a Mason??
What required reading? The Petition?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Even if its their own "opinion"??
Yep. Most of it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

The subject of Baconian Idolotry was not brought up by me in the first place, it was brought up by a Freemason (COACH) as a counter argument.
Only in your mind was it a counter argument. Idols of the marketplace was quite apt for the discussion. But you had to go for the drama...
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

You don't have to. Just simply answer the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?
Heck, you did the research. You tell us!
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And if you don't know, just say so.
Yes. Please do.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Why all this confusion over a simple question???
My thoughts exactly!
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And how is a simple question to a subject first brought up by a Freemason [COACH] trolling????
Are you Potting or Kettling here?
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Then let me correct your misconception. I started a new thread as to not cause another digression within my original thread as started by Coach's answer to my response. I was, and still am, confused by Coach's use of Bacon's 'Idols' to refute my initial statement. It made no sense to me. So again I ask the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? - since I am a big fan of theater!
But Coach was not referring to the "Theatrical Idols". That simple point got missed by your thread efforts.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression.
And then you proceeded to digress...
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling..... 
Yet, it seems to be taken as trolling once you started to reply. Interesting...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Interesting how a Mason with a B.S. in Engineering and a Doctorate in Divinity cannot answer a simple question?
You've truly screwed up royally here, once again.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

That question being "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'??
You appear to be consistently dissatisfied no matter what the response. Apparently you believe whining will change this. Have you considered checking out and participating in a 12 step codependent recovery program? Perhaps you'd be better off going somewhere else where you'd find more satisfaction and where whining actually does change others behaviors to your will.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Since it was Coach who first brought up the subject of Baconian Idolatry (out of context) in the first place???
LOL! Out of context... too funny...
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Coach, why are you redirecting the blame of an intelligent question to the readers???
It appears that you still don't understand the agenda. You're making every effort to change the other posters by complaining. Life does not work that way when you come across as you have. Perhaps you simply do not fit in.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 6:43pm
To answer the question of the opening post"  NO!

There are 4 Idols
  • Idols of the Tribe:    aka: Fallacies of Human kind
  • Idols of the Cave:  aka: Fallacies of the individual Mind
  • Idols of the Marketplace:      aka: Fallacies of Semantics or Rhetoric
  • Idols of the Theater:       aka: Fallacies due to sophistry and false learning & false Prophets/teachers
These are from Bacon's Novum Organum.    My reference is Mannly Hall ; http://www.sirbacon.org/links/4idols.htm
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 7:13pm
Grimoire,

Refer back to your most recent response to me to reference the points you made. My answers are below. I'm not going to get into multiple quotes and take up all sorts of space on the forum and it just causes confusion.

You state that you are asking the exact same question you would ask in a lodge to a Worshipful Master. In almost 35 years as a Mason, I have never heard this type of question asked of a Worshipful Master. The average WM would have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, it might have been a Freemason who brought it up but I'm quite certain this came from other studies in which he has been involved. I'm quite certain that it did not originate from his involvement in Freemasonry. Coach can correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't know why Coach brought it up. I think he might have answered that in his response.

"Gnosticism, memory training, the Roman Catholic 'Quadrivium' or Catholic 'Trivium', or codes or history or cells is all 'deep' philosophy and part of the Masonic curriculum according to every Masonic manual I've read ." I have never heard any of these subjects brought up in any Blue Lodge or Lodge of Instruction and I don't see why they would be or should be. 

Freemasonry delves into all sorts of 'deep' philosophy... Some Freemasons delve and have delved into all sorts of deep philosophy and have tried to point out relationships to Freemasonry. It is interesting, fascinating, but not an official part of any "Masonic Curriculum." It is available to Masons but not required.

As I've discovered to my disappointment [that most Masons are the average typical person who won't know about the Francis Bacons] on Mastermasons.com forums. Well, I'm disappointed you feel this way. You came to this forum looking to learn about Freemasonry and I now think that perhaps you had some pre-conceived notions about Freemasonry and when the reality differed from the perception, as it usually does, you are disappointed. I'm sorry you feel this way. 

Even if its a Mason who brought it up in the first place???  Yes, even if it is a Mason who brought it up in the first place.

What about all the required reading to become a Mason?? Even if its their own "opinion"?? What required reading to become a Mason? Beyond learning lectures for the three Blue Lodge degrees, there is no required reading to become a Mason. Some research and traditional observance lodges might have required readings, and I think in order to become a member of a lodge in the Grand Oriente de France, which is not recognized by regular and duly constituted Masonry, there are required readings, but in U.S. Lodges there is no required reading beyond the lectures of the degrees. 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 7:20pm
Actually, Grimoire brings up a good point. We really do need to impart to our members the deeper philosophical aspects to our Craft in places like Blue Lodges and Lodges of Instruction, but not to the extent that he thinks we already have.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2016 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Actually, Grimoire brings up a good point. We really do need to impart to our members the deeper philosophical aspects to our Craft in places like Blue Lodges and Lodges of Instruction, but not to the extent that he thinks we already have.


This would be good topic for a Lodges of Research.   In my district, most Lodges do not present any type of 'education' in Lodge.   Most members would not be interested in the above topic or like topics in the Lodge.  The Lodges open, conduct business, and close. Some (err) - too times all within 20 minutes.   ... Lodges of Instruction deal with & teach the GL's uniform works only.

Apparently Mr. Grimoire (french usage) has difficulty understanding the true simple nature of Freemasonry and due to his "Idols of the Cave" continue to believe there exist mystical & magic hidden within Freemasonry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 5:32am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Actually, Grimoire brings up a good point. We really do need to impart to our members the deeper philosophical aspects to our Craft in places like Blue Lodges and Lodges of Instruction, but not to the extent that he thinks we already have.
This would be good topic for a Lodges of Research.   In my district, most Lodges do not present any type of 'education' in Lodge.   Most members would not be interested in the above topic or like topics in the Lodge.  The Lodges open, conduct business, and close. Some (err) - too times all within 20 minutes.   ... Lodges of Instruction deal with & teach the GL's uniform works only.

Apparently Mr. Grimoire (french usage) has difficulty understanding the true simple nature of Freemasonry and due to his "Idols of the Cave" continue to believe there exist mystical & magic hidden within Freemasonry.

The illusions many have about Freemasonry are classically acted out by Mr. Walker (Grimoire). As much as I love the romantic aspect of Freemasonry, the cold hard reality that is experienced continuously tells me that the deeper philosophical aspects so yearned for by many shall not be realized in any lodge save for a very few and even then, only briefly once it is realized that the very structure of Freemasonry simply will not support it. To implement such a focus would mean retooling what a Lodge does.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

The illusions many have about Freemasonry are classically acted out by Mr. Walker (Grimoire). As much as I love the romantic aspect of Freemasonry, the cold hard reality that is experienced continuously tells me that the deeper philosophical aspects so yearned for by many shall not be realized in any lodge save for a very few and even then, only briefly once it is realized that the very structure of Freemasonry simply will not support it. To implement such a focus would mean retooling what a Lodge does.


I agree Bro. N. This is my opinion: The Lodge has a very simple and important function, to put on the degrees. Granted it's a bit more than that but basically just that. The other work is done by individuals who take the time to explore what the ritual (degree) has in it or what it means to them. Yes there are some agreed upon things but it's very much an individual journey.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 3:31pm
I don't know that the whole structure of the lodge needs to be changed to put more emphasis on the philosophical aspects. The following are the subjects of the Lodge of Instruction in my district for the next six months and are similar to those discussed for many years:

Budgeting
Prioritizing
Conflict Resolution
Project Management
Effective Communication
What Motivates People

These are all necessary subjects of course but is there room for Masonic history, background information of the Blue Lodge Degrees, relationships to other aspects of the period of enlightenment etc.? The above sounds to me like it came straight out of Harvard Business School. Several minutes could also be set aside at each regular communication for short talks on the more "esoteric" aspects. I think there are many members who would like to learn about such things, though not necessarily on the research or scholarly level.



Edited by droche - September/07/2016 at 3:37pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't know that the whole structure of the lodge needs to be changed to put more emphasis on the philosophical aspects. The following are the subjects of the Lodge of Instruction in my district for the next six months and are similar to those discussed for many years:

Budgeting
Prioritizing
Conflict Resolution
Project Management
Effective Communication
What Motivates People

....


Those are elements of Leadership, which is taught by our annual Leadership Conference.  This is the third year of the Conference.  Many of our Lodge officers move into the East and have no idea how to do any of those Leadership functions.

 Our Custodians are authorized to hold 'Schools of Instructions'.     The Schools of Instructions covers Opening & Closing the Lodge; reception of the GM or DDGM; All 3 degrees, word for word from the Coded cipher, with correct steps & movements.    ... This is the GL of Georgia and might differ some in other GLs.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The subject of Baconian Idolotry was not brought up by me in the first place, it was brought up by a Freemason (COACH) as a counter argument.    
....


And that continues to be the fact whether you like it or not.



Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

YOU first made reference to 'Idols' with the title of this thread and the opening post without refeence to where to quote came from!  Simpley Look at the top of this thread.


Yet that does not alter the fact that it was coach, and not I, who brought up the subject of Baconian Idols in the first place. And if these posts were numbered then citing other posts would make discussion a lot smoother.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Coach didn't bring up the topic in this thread you did.   Just look at who's name is on the first post and who opened this thread.


No, it was coach who brought up the topic in the first place which resulted in this thread, which I have explained clearly in the below posts.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

... From your last post and therein reference to , it appears to me you were looking for answers or lines of thought to use as your own argument in another forum discussion about Bacon and his use of Idols.


Then let me correct your misconception. I started a new thread as to not cause another digression within my original thread as started by Coach's answer to my response. I was, and still am, confused by Coach's use of Bacon's 'Idols' to refute my initial statement. It made no sense to me. So again I ask the question: "What did Bacon mean by 'Idols of the Theater'?? - since I am a big fan of theater!

NO! I started a different thread as to avoid a digression. Since Idols of the Market Place was mentioned in a past topic I did not want to spin off on another subject within my topic question, so I asked a question regarding Sir Francis Bacon's used of Idolatry, specifically Idols of the Theater in a new thread. Totally within the context of the discussion. Again, Not Trolling.
.... 

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

I was making reference to discussions outside of the MasterMason.com forums as indicated by your following statements


What discussion "outside of the MasterMason.com forums" did I make? Every discussion I've made has been done within MasterMason.com forums?! 



Apparently you are ignoring your quoted statements to that fact by cutting them from my quotes of your post.   So here they are again.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


....

    ...                  So I went to Amazon.com and received the answer I was hoping to get from Mastermason.com forums where
stodgy Baconian empiricism 'Idols' was first mentioned.    ...      But I had to go somewhere else to read both positive and negative comments on Baconian Idolotry    ....
...  





And again I reiterate, what 'discussion' took place outside of Mastermason.co forums?? Amazon.com doesn't have a forum to discuss anything! No 'discussion took place outside of Mastermason.com forums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2016 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Could you explain it in you [sic] own expert opinion rather than rely on an unknown author used by Wikipedia? Thank you.


Yes, I could. But that would be redundant and, in my expert opinion, at this point you have been weighed, tested, assessed and found unworthy of any further effort than to continually point out that you have no good intention or value to this forum.

You're welcome.


In other words, you don't know?

You're still trolling...


And you're still avoiding.
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