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A Question for GrimoireA3

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    Posted: September/10/2016 at 9:20am
I am sure this question has been asked of you (and probably answered) more than once on this forum....

If you are so enamored of Freemasonry, why don't you petition a lodge and join?
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Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

I am sure this question has been asked of you (and probably answered) more than once on this forum....

If you are so enamored of Freemasonry, why don't you petition a lodge and join?


Hi WBScott,

Sorry for the delay in my response.

Yes, this question has been asked of me a few times in the past, and thank you for asking it again.

I. First, I really don't think I'm qualified to be a Mason, and I don't think I would be accepted after filling out all the initial paperwork.

II. I don't think I could commit the time and effort to the demands of an active fraternity. I have other irons in the fire.

III. After six years of military service (4 years active duty Navy; 2 years active reserve National Guard) I developed an aversion to uniforms and medals/medallions. I have seen several photographic portraits of Masons all bedecked out in formal wear and trinkets. That is not my scene.

IV. There is no guarantee that I would have anything in common with my fellow Masons if I joined, as I discovered after joining a yacht club and had nothing in common with my fellow members.

V. I discovered a lot of the philosophy of Masonry I found mentioned in the literature and manuals to be already familiar to me, some of which is considered obsolete or redundant or delusional in the modern academic curriculum(i.e. the Quadrivium or Trivium or Kabbala or Gnosticism, mythology, legends, plays or skits .... etc.).

IV. And finally, if I did become a Freemason, I would have to be very circumspect and not be asking tough questions to Brother Masons. I like being an academic 'loose cannon' (on the deck) and dig for info.

As I explained a while ago, I discovered Freemasonry about three years ago when I came across a 'Masonic Bible' with a lot of Egyptian stuff in it (the Masonic bible uses the King James text). And that got my head to scratch'in. Why do the Freemasons have their own Bible??? And with six years of college education (4 years undergraduate; 2 years graduate) my academic curiosity was piqued.

So off to the Boston Public Library I went and found a plethora of Masonic literature going back to the 1700s. I found that reading Masonic writings to be fascinating, intelligent, insightful, and curious. I needed more and more as I dug deeper into Masonic myth and lore.

To complement the readings I needed to communicate with 'real' Freemasons so as to not draw any false conclusions. As a basis of comparison demanded by objective research I read all the 'anti-Mason' literature along with the 'pro-mason' literature to reach my own decisions.

Being a Boston native, I have walked past the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street for over 50 years without thinking much about it. I just assumed it was another rich man's Yankee club here in Boston. I took the public tour they give and was very impressed by the beauty of the various rooms. Yet the huge lodge was very opulent and had several dozen marble statues all over the place - there were twenty foot statues of the two Johns on one end, and twenty foot statues of Benjamin Franklin and Athena on the opposite end with marble columns, huge portraits of various Masons and a lot of other statuary throughout each lodge room: (kinda looked like the sanctum of my Catholic Church?). A critic could make a case of idolatry in those baroque-rococo halls and rooms?? Yet the young tour guides in blazers and ties were tight lipped about any pointed questions regarding Masonry.

It is on Mastermason.com Forums (a public venue) that I am able to converse with real live and active Freemasons, which has been very educational for me. Thanks guys!!

I have a small collection of Masonic books and videotapes (THE FREEMASON movie) which I am going to donate to the Mass. Grand Lodge library on the third floor.

Hope this long spiel answers your question.

Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/13/2016 at 9:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2016 at 1:49pm
Grimoire,

Whether or not you want to become a Mason is entirely up to you, and I will not attempt to influence you one way or another. However, you do need to know facts. Two things jump out at me in your above response:

1. Basic Blue Lodge Masons do not wear uniforms and are not militaristic. A branch of the York Rite, The Knights Templar I believe wear uniforms and have a military "atmosphere," but I am not the best qualified to comment on this since I am not in the York Rite. Suffice to say one does not have to be in this in order to be a Mason.

2. Masons do not have their own Bible! There are special editions of Bibles for the Masonic Fraternity but the scriptures therein are exactly the same as other editions.

You also mentioned that some statues and what have you at the Grand Lodge in Boston smack of idolatry. I guess it depends on how you define "idolatry" but we do not worship these statues or paintings and it does not seem to me that they are idolatrous, but everyone is free to interpret things as they see them. If they make you uncomfortable then it is probably not time for you to join.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2016 at 9:30pm
I do sincerely appreciate the time you put into your reply to my question, but like droche, there are many things I do not understand.

I. I don't know about Massachusetts, but in Missouri, in order to become a Mason, you must be a man, free born, of lawful age (18 in Missouri), bearing a tongue of good report and coming well recommended. In addition, you must not be an old man in his dotage, an atheist, an irreligious libertine (a scoffer of religious truths), a madman or a fool. Do you not meet one or more of those qualifications?

II. As far as the amount of time it takes, yes, it can take as much time as you are willing and able to give.

III. As droche has said, there are no "uniforms" per se. Some lodges require a suit and tie, In some lodges the officers wear tuxedos. In the lodges in my district (some of which are in rural parts of the counties), we like to see the brothers in slacks and a collared shirt. Ties are not required and we frown upon shorts and T-shirts. As far as the "trinkets', only the officers wear jewels representing  their office. As far as the portraits you may have seen of men such as George Washington and Harry Truman, keep in mind that they were Grand Masters (the highest rank anyone can achieve in any Grand Lodge) and that these are formal portraits showing them in full Masonic regalia. 

IV. No, there is no guarantee you will have anything in common with the other men in any lodge, other than your love of god. However once you are made a Master Mason, you can attend pretty much any lodge in the world. 

V. About all I can say is that Masonry of today has evolved into a fraternity that has become more meaningful today than it was 300+ years ago when it was founded. 

VI. You can be as academic as you want, but please try not to look down upon those of us who join simply to be of service to our fellow men, not to delve into the more esoteric dimensions of Freemasonry.

As far as the tour guides being "tight-lipped" about Masonry, you must keep in mind that while Freemasonry is not a secret society, it is a society with secrets! Only those who have gone through the three degrees are entitled to those secrets. As a "civilian" taking a tour of the Grand Lodge. the guides will share only that information to which you are entitled. You can study all of the myth and lore of Freemasonry you want, but that does not entitle you to the same rights and privileges as those of us who are indeed Freemasons.

I hope this has helped.


Edited by WBScott - September/14/2016 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2016 at 11:42am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,
1. Basic Blue Lodge Masons do not wear uniforms and are not militaristic. A branch of the York Rite, The Knights Templar I believe wear uniforms and have a military "atmosphere," but I am not the best qualified to comment on this since I am not in the York Rite. Suffice to say one does not have to be in this in order to be a Mason.


I guess I wasn't specific enough defining a 'uniform'. The armed forces do not have a monopoly on uniforms. Private school kids wear a uniform (shirt, tie, blazer, etc.); a banker's uniform is usually a three piece suit; and Freemason's wear a uniform of 'formal wear' (tuxedos, suits, white gloves, formal hats; sashes, the Apron, etc.) and Freemasons also wear 'medallions' of all types with sashes, etc. Again, uniforms are not my scene.


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

2. Masons do not have their own Bible! There are special editions of Bibles for the Masonic Fraternity but the scriptures therein are exactly the same as other editions.


As I mentioned in my post, the Masonic Bible uses the 'King James' version as its text. Special Editions of Bibles for the Masonic Fraternity are not what I have been using, reading, researching with, and planning on purchasing from Amazon.com. There are 'Masonic Bibles' on sale at various on-line book stores, and Masonic Bibles are commented on Youtube. Masonic Bibles, some dated to the 1930s, can be read on-line. And I plan on purchasing one. The Boston Public Library has a Masonic Bible which I've been reading.


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

You also mentioned that some statues and what have you at the Grand Lodge in Boston smack of idolatry.


No. I wrote a critic could make a case for idolatry. That was a joke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2016 at 11:56am
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

I. I don't know about Massachusetts, but in Missouri, in order to become a Mason, you must be a man, free born, of lawful age (18 in Missouri), bearing a tongue of good report and coming well recommended. In addition, you must not be an old man in his dotage, an atheist, an irreligious libertine (a scoffer of religious truths), a madman or a fool. Do you not meet one or more of those qualifications


The Massachusetts Grand Lodge also has a form similar to a government job application to fill out. But I do have some Tyranosaurus Rex size skeletons in my closet which is why I hesitate to apply for membership [that's all I'm gonna say on that subject].




Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

III. As droche has said, there are no "uniforms" per se. Some lodges require a suit and tie, In some lodges the officers wear tuxedos. In the lodges in my district (some of which are in rural parts of the counties), we like to see the brothers in slacks and a collared shirt. Ties are not required and we frown upon shorts and T-shirts. As far as the "trinkets', only the officers wear jewels representing  their office. As far as the portraits you may have seen of men such as George Washington and Harry Truman, keep in mind that they were Grand Masters (the highest rank anyone can achieve in any Grand Lodge) and that these are formal portraits showing them in full Masonic regalia.


You see it's any type of Masonic Regalia (i.e. uniform) at all which I would refuse to wear, let alone purchase. And that is thanks to my military service which gave me a serious case of the willies to ANY type of uniform (or formal wear or regalia, etc. etc.).


Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

IV. No, there is no guarantee you will have anything in common with the other men in any lodge, other than your love of god. However once you are made a Master Mason, you can attend pretty much any lodge in the world.


Thanks. Sounds similar to the yacht club I joined. You can visit any yacht club in America with your valid yacht club membership card. Unfortunately not every 'boat person' is someone I care to socialize with on any level (cops, lawyers, judges, journalists, yuppies, etc.). I would be afraid it might be the same with Freemason lodges.




Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

VI. You can be as academic as you want, but please try not to look down upon those of us who join simply to be of service to our fellow men, not to delve into the more esoteric dimensions of Freemasonry.


Look down? - no. Disappointed? - yes. Sorry I am not coming across accurately with my clipped and quickly typed explanations and discussions on this forum. Which is why I suggested a meeting of New England area Masons on this forum with myself face to face to clear up any misconceptions.


Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

As far as the tour guides being "tight-lipped" about Masonry, you must keep in mind that while Freemasonry is not a secret society, it is a society with secrets! Only those who have gone through the three degrees are entitled to those secrets. As a "civilian" taking a tour of the Grand Lodge. the guides will share only that information to which you are entitled. You can study all of the myth and lore of Freemasonry you want, but that does not entitle you to the same rights and privileges as those of us who are indeed Freemasons.


Oh absolutely yes. I would have been annoyed if those young tourguides spilled any Masonic beans during the tour. It was a compliment that they were tight lipped.


I hope this has helped.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2016 at 7:06pm
Grimoire,

I am curious what books and literature about Freemasonry you have read at the Boston Public Library. Do you mind providing a list?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2016 at 9:11am
With all due respect, it sounds like you are enamored with what you think Freemasonry represents or may have represented at some time in the past, but you have also presented a laundry list of reasons why you are not willing to actually become one yourself. 

I can not speak for anyone else, but this being the case, I find it difficult to justify sharing any information with you, especially regarding Freemasonry. You can read all the books you want, but you will never fully appreciate what Freemasonry is all about until you actually become one. 

I am sure there must be any number of discussion forums out there where you can discuss those subjects which are of interest to you and I encourage you to seek them out. 

You somehow think that by meeting some of us in person, this will clear up any "misconceptions" we have about you. I doubt it. If that were to happen, I am sure you would be just as disappointed in us as you are with the members of your yacht club. We are not angelic figures who walk around with halos around our heads discussing the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry. To use Joe Walsh's song lyrics, we are, for the most part, just "ordinary average guys" who have chosen to devote some of our free time to this particular fraternity in order to be of service to our fellow men. 

Good luck in your quest, but the bottom line is I think you are expecting too much of us!


Edited by WBScott - September/18/2016 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 8:43am
Sounds like someone knocked out their CO. (My dad did this) and now has aversion to authority.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 10:15am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Sounds like someone knocked out their CO. (My dad did this) and now has aversion to authority.




Not to authority but to stupidity. 

 Look what happened to Archimedes.  The smartest man in the western world was murdered by the stupidest man in the western world: Archimedes was murdered by a Roman soldier.

Besides, my opinion of the Naval officer corps is first rate; and the CO of both my ships were role models for me. 

 But the abuse of authority cannot be condoned on any level.


Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/19/2016 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 10:22am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

I am curious what books and literature about Freemasonry you have read at the Boston Public Library. Do you mind providing a list?

Hi droche,

It would be a daunting task to type every title I've read on Masonry in the past three years (recently including the Building Better Men series).

So I'm giving you the webpage url to the Boston Public Library where I get my reading materials.

www.bpl.org  

click on collections, type in Freemasonry, or Masonry


Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/19/2016 at 10:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 10:37am
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

With all due respect, it sounds like you are enamored with what you think Freemasonry represents or may have represented at some time in the past, but you have also presented a laundry list of reasons why you are not willing to actually become one yourself.

Which is why I am on this forum, to clarify any of my misconceptions outside of having to become a Freemason myself.  So far all my intellectual curiosity is being satisfied both through my readings of the primary sources and from participating on this website.


 
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

I can not speak for anyone else, but this being the case, I find it difficult to justify sharing any information with you, especially regarding Freemasonry. You can read all the books you want, but you will never fully appreciate what Freemasonry is all about until you actually become one.

I've never doubted that for a second.  That is why I am asking the experts, i.e. Real Live Freemasons! 

Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

I am sure there must be any number of discussion forums out there where you can discuss those subjects which are of interest to you and I encourage you to seek them out.

O.K., I can take a hint.Cry   Strange that I am getting the same request from anti-Mason forums?

Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

You somehow think that by meeting some of us in person, this will clear up any "misconceptions" we have about you. I doubt it. If that were to happen, I am sure you would be just as disappointed in us as you are with the members of your yacht club. We are not angelic figures who walk around with halos around our heads discussing the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry. To use Joe Walsh's song lyrics, we are, for the most part, just "ordinary average guys" who have chosen to devote some of our free time to this particular fraternity in order to be of service to our fellow men.

Face to face meetings is the standard operating procedure to clear up any misconceptions due to anonymous electronic communications?  Not an unusual request.


Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

Good luck in your quest, but the bottom line is I think you are expecting too much of us!

Does 'making good men better' or 'building better men' have no truth value?  Based on these frequent Masonic slogans, am I wrong to assume Freemasonry has higher than average standards?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jdwalker519 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 11:28am
GrimoireA3, the only thing you would be required to wear when attending Lodge is your Masonic apron.  That's it.  If you remain a sideliner and do not ever become an officer, you won't even have to wear a jewel.

I too am military, and if you have THAT much of an aversion to uniforms of any kind, I seriously have to think there's something wrong with you that a therapist needs to address.


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You can read all the books you want to. No one person has a monopoly on Freemasonry. Coach can put all his writings out there for others to read. It doesn't mean he is right (or wrong ;) )

Your readings would be the equivalent of a sergeant with every stripe and award having to yield to a 21 year old 1st lieutenant. The only difference is that the sergeant is still in the same organization.

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternity. THAT is what creates the bond. We have all gone as others have gone before us...not because we subscribe to an author.

Good luck on your research. However, if you've ever felt any brotherhood with your fellow military men, then that is as close to Freemasonry as you will get. The feeling that you will do anything for that man next to you not because he is your friend, but because he is your brother whether you know him or not.


Edited by BroScubaSteve - September/19/2016 at 1:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

I am curious what books and literature about Freemasonry you have read at the Boston Public Library. Do you mind providing a list?

Hi droche,

It would be a daunting task to type every title I've read on Masonry in the past three years (recently including the Building Better Men series).

So I'm giving you the webpage url to the Boston Public Library where I get my reading materials.

www.bpl.org  

click on collections, type in Freemasonry, or Masonry
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

I am curious what books and literature about Freemasonry you have read at the Boston Public Library. Do you mind providing a list?

Hi droche,

It would be a daunting task to type every title I've read on Masonry in the past three years (recently including the Building Better Men series).

So I'm giving you the webpage url to the Boston Public Library where I get my reading materials.

www.bpl.org  

click on collections, type in Freemasonry, or Masonry

I realize it would be be very involved to send a complete list.  I also know that the Boston Public Library has a tremendous amount of publications on Freemasonry. I'm just wondering if there are any publications that stand out or have influenced you more than others. I might be interested in looking at them at some point and it would help to know where you are coming from. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I. First, I really don't think I'm qualified to be a Mason, and I don't think I would be accepted after filling out all the initial paperwork.
You might be right in this. However, you might be wrong. You won't actually know until you obtain a petition for the jurisdiction you want to join and review it to see if any questions would boot you.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

II. I don't think I could commit the time and effort to the demands of an active fraternity. I have other irons in the fire.
You might find the demands are not as you have imagined. However, it might not be the right time for you either way.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

III. After six years of military service (4 years active duty Navy; 2 years active reserve National Guard) I developed an aversion to uniforms and medals/medallions. I have seen several photographic portraits of Masons all bedecked out in formal wear and trinkets. That is not my scene.
You might look into a more laid back lodge. Some wear shorts and flip-flops.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

IV. There is no guarantee that I would have anything in common with my fellow Masons if I joined, as I discovered after joining a yacht club and had nothing in common with my fellow members.
This assuming you stay connected with the lodge you were raised in. I've switched lodges three times and have done so when I find a pasture that suits my current tastes. No one is stuck to one specific lodge.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

V. I discovered a lot of the philosophy of Masonry I found mentioned in the literature and manuals to be already familiar to me, some of which is considered obsolete or redundant or delusional in the modern academic curriculum(i.e. the Quadrivium or Trivium or Kabbala or Gnosticism, mythology, legends, plays or skits .... etc.).
Wow! Trivium and Quadrivium obsolete or redundant or delusions. Who'd a thunk it.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

IV. And finally, if I did become a Freemason, I would have to be very circumspect and not be asking tough questions to Brother Masons. I like being an academic 'loose cannon' (on the deck) and dig for info.
Some can handle it. Some can't. Just like outside the fraternity, you'll find a wide variance of interest in tough questions.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

As I explained a while ago, I discovered Freemasonry about three years ago when I came across a 'Masonic Bible' with a lot of Egyptian stuff in it (the Masonic bible uses the King James text). And that got my head to scratch'in.
It should. There is no masonic bible. Only bibles that were put together to attract masons into buying them.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Why do the Freemasons have their own Bible???
You assume freemasonry does; It doesn't. Each member is encourage to find their own book of faith. The Christian bible is one of many the members refer to and use.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And with six years of college education (4 years undergraduate; 2 years graduate) my academic curiosity was piqued.
Looks like you caught the scent of the chum in the water.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...To complement the readings I needed to communicate with 'real' Freemasons so as to not draw any false conclusions.
Great idea. When you find one, please let us know. Us regular freemasons might be interested in seeing what you find.   
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

It is on Mastermason.com Forums (a public venue) that I am able to converse with real live and active Freemasons, which has been very educational for me. Thanks guys!!
Glad to help. Don't mention it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2016 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

III. After six years of military service (4 years active duty Navy; 2 years active reserve National Guard) I developed an aversion to uniforms and medals/medallions. I have seen several photographic portraits of Masons all bedecked out in formal wear and trinkets. That is not my scene.
You might look into a more laid back lodge. Some wear shorts and flip-flops.

Not in Massachusetts. Minimum jacket and tie is required for attendance at meetings. officers often wear tuxedos, even at business meetings. Nevertheless, even in Massachusetts, some lodges are indeed more laid back than others. My reading of Grimoire is that he wants a fairly informal atmosphere but with a high intellectual and scholarly emphasis. That might be a tall order, I don't really know; I'm not familiar with the chemistry of the lodges in Boston. If he wants to join, he should talk to the several lodges that meet at 186 Tremont St. I would just walk in the door and tell the receptionist that he might be interested in joining; who could he talk to? If he joins, I think he would be a good candidate for the Massachusetts Lodge of Research. (http://www.masslodgeofresearch.org/).  In order to belong to the Lodge of  Research, one must already be a member of a regular lodge.

The rest is up to him. I'm always here to help.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2016 at 6:40am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

III. After six years of military service (4 years active duty Navy; 2 years active reserve National Guard) I developed an aversion to uniforms and medals/medallions. I have seen several photographic portraits of Masons all bedecked out in formal wear and trinkets. That is not my scene.
You might look into a more laid back lodge. Some wear shorts and flip-flops.


Not in Massachusetts. Minimum jacket and tie is required for attendance at meetings. officers often wear tuxedos, even at business meetings. Nevertheless, even in Massachusetts, some lodges are indeed more laid back than others. My reading of Grimoire is that he wants a fairly informal atmosphere but with a high intellectual and scholarly emphasis. That might be a tall order, I don't really know; I'm not familiar with the chemistry of the lodges in Boston. If he wants to join, he should talk to the several lodges that meet at 186 Tremont St. I would just walk in the door and tell the receptionist that he might be interested in joining; who could he talk to? If he joins, I think he would be a good candidate for the Massachusetts Lodge of Research. (http://www.masslodgeofresearch.org/).  In order to belong to the Lodge of  Research, one must already be a member of a regular lodge.

The rest is up to him. I'm always here to help.


Hence the "laid back" direction. I didn't say finding one would be easy, especially in his general local. If he wants what he wants, it's like everything else in life and in freemasonic life especially, he'll most likely not have it handed to him and have to seek it. But that's exactly what I found most in my Masonic quest: I had to find it myself. No one gave me anything that I didn't seek first.

BTW - Lodges of "Research"... the only one that I found consistent in providing me the Light I want is ACQ out of England and that through its published materials.

Personally, I don't think he'll be happy or fit in but not for the reasons he's stated directly.

Edited by coach - September/20/2016 at 6:43am
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

The rest is up to him. I'm always here to help.


And that kind offer is greatly appreciated. Thank you droche!
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Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

You can read all the books you want to. No one person has a monopoly on Freemasonry. Coach can put all his writings out there for others to read. It doesn't mean he is right (or wrong ;) )

Your readings would be the equivalent of a sergeant with every stripe and award having to yield to a 21 year old 1st lieutenant. The only difference is that the sergeant is still in the same organization.

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternity. THAT is what creates the bond. We have all gone as others have gone before us...not because we subscribe to an author.

Good luck on your research.





So there is no correspondence course to becoming raised?
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

I am curious what books and literature about Freemasonry you have read at the Boston Public Library. Do you mind providing a list?


Hi droche,

O.K., here goes. Some of three years readings, but not all:

The Theocratic Philosophy of Freemasonry (1840) by George Oliver

Stellar Theology & Masonic Astronomy(1882) by Robert Hewitt Brown

The Freemason's Manual (1851) by Kensey Johns Stewart

Cracking Codes and Cryptograms For Dummies: Understanding the Freemason's Cipher by Denise Sutherland and Mark Kolto-Rivera

The Meaning of Masonry (1924) by Albert Pike

Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry by Albert Pike

Mimitsu Kessha (The Secret Society) 1900 by French Roman Catholic Priest Father F. Ligneul [an anti-Mason work]

Masonry: Beyond the Light by William Schnoebelen {anti-Mason work]

33 Degrees of Deception (2011) by Tom C. McKenney [an anti-Mason work]

The Deadly Deception: Freemasonry Exposed by one of its top Leaders by James D. Shaw [an anti-Mason work]

Deciphering the Lost Symbol by Christopher L. Hodapp

Hidden Secrets of Masonry by Cathy Burns

The Brotherhood (1984) by Stephen Knight

The Mysteries of John the Baptist: His legacy in Gnosticism, Paganism, and Freemasonry (2012) by Tobias Churton

Builders of Empire: Freemasns and British Imperialism 1717-1927 (2007) by Jessica Harland-Jacobs

The Passion Stroke: A Tale of Ancient Masonry(1906) by Mary Fairweather

Neo-Masonry: A new age cultural asset a plea and plan for peaceful change (1974) by Lynn F. Perkins

Thomas Dunckerley: A Remarkable Freemason (1982) by Ron Chudley

Thomas Dunckerley and English Freemasonry by Susan Mitchell Sommers

Masonic Casket - 1823/1826

Opinions on Speculative Masonry - 1830

Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians

A Brief Inquiry into Origins and Principles of Freemasonry (1820) by Simon Greenleaf

Revolution and Freemasonry (1935) by Bernard Fay

The True Masonic Chart (1846) by Jeremy L. Cross

The Early History of Freemasonry in England (1844)

Great American Masons (1924) by George W. Baird

The Antiquities of Freemasonry (1843) by George T. Oliver

'Boston Masonic Mirror' journal, 1830

A Century of Freemasonry in Nantucket (1903) by Alexander Starbuck

The Royal National LIfe-Boat Institution and the Masonic LIfe Boat A century of Association, book, (1973) by Ivan Francis Trinder

Masonic Charities (1987)

Brother Truman (1985) by Allen E. Roberts

A Life of Albert Pike (1997) by Walter Lee Brown

Who is Who in Freemasonry (1986)

Masonic Priorities (1982) by Adewale Thompson

Masonic Gleanings (1956) by Robert Glenn Cole

Masonic Lodge Methods (1953) by L.B. Blakemore

'The Freemason's Calender for the Year 1788, Being Bissextile or Leap year' by Freemasons, Grande Lodge (England) 1788

The Pocket History of Freemasonry(1969) by Fred L. Pick

'Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All The Religions and Governments of Europe Carried Out in the Secret Meetings of Freemasons' (1797) by John Robinson

10,000 Famous Freemasons(1957) by William R. Denslow

On The Origins of Free-Masonry (1810) by Thomas Paine

The Gospel Recommended to Freemasons (June 24, 1803) Festival of St. John the Baptist by Festus Foster

The Secret Warfare of Freemasonry Against Church and State (1875) by G.M. Pachtler

The Discrepancies of Freemasonry (1875) by George Oliver

Masonry The Way to Hell A Sermon, 1768 e-book

The Freemasons(1869) by Louis Gaston de Se'gur

'Masonry is the Same all over the World! Another Masonic Murder (1780) by Samuel Anderson e-book

Stalwart Builders A History of the Grand Lodge of Masons in Massachusetts 1733-1970 (1971) by Thomas Sherrard Roy

The Freemason's Companion, or Pocket Preceptors (1804)

The Masonic Almanac and Pocket Companion, from July to the End of the Year 1801

The Lost Keys of Freemasonry (1976) by Manly P. Hall

Illustrations of Masonry(1792) by William Preston

The Amaranth 'or' Masonic Garland

The Freemason Stripped Naked(1765) by Charles Warren

Fratrimonium Excelsum: A New Ahiman Rezon(1770) by A Worthy Brother

The Freemason's Pocket Companion(1773) by John Entick

Ahiman Rezon (1764) by Laurence Dermott

The Complete Freemason or 'Multa Paucis' For Lovers of Secrets (1764) e-book

Masonic Emblems Explained(1842) by Thaddeus Mason Harris

Conversations on Freemasonry (1976) by Henry Wilson Coil

The Chaplain's Guide to Freemasonry (2016) by J.A. Shapira

FREEMASNRY IS ONLY 152 YEARS OLD!! (1869) e-book

The Jews and Freemasonry by Jacob Katz

___________________________________________________________

There are more minor pamphlets and tracts. And yes I did read this entire list of works, some of which are only ten to twelve pages in length. Very enjoyable reading material.

'SO MOTE IT BE' - y'all.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

I am curious what books and literature about Freemasonry you have read at the Boston Public Library. Do you mind providing a list?


Hi droche,

O.K., here goes. Some of three years readings, but not all:

The Theocratic Philosophy of Freemasonry (1840) by George Oliver

Stellar Theology & Masonic Astronomy(1882) by Robert Hewitt Brown

The Freemason's Manual (1851) by Kensey Johns Stewart

Cracking Codes and Cryptograms For Dummies: Understanding the Freemason's Cipher by Denise Sutherland and Mark Kolto-Rivera

The Meaning of Masonry (1924) by Albert Pike

Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry by Albert Pike

Mimitsu Kessha (The Secret Society) 1900 by French Roman Catholic Priest Father F. Ligneul [an anti-Mason work]

Masonry: Beyond the Light by William Schnoebelen {anti-Mason work]

33 Degrees of Deception (2011) by Tom C. McKenney [an anti-Mason work]

The Deadly Deception: Freemasonry Exposed by one of its top Leaders by James D. Shaw [an anti-Mason work]

Deciphering the Lost Symbol by Christopher L. Hodapp

Hidden Secrets of Masonry by Cathy Burns

The Brotherhood (1984) by Stephen Knight

The Mysteries of John the Baptist: His legacy in Gnosticism, Paganism, and Freemasonry (2012) by Tobias Churton

Builders of Empire: Freemasns and British Imperialism 1717-1927 (2007) by Jessica Harland-Jacobs

The Passion Stroke: A Tale of Ancient Masonry(1906) by Mary Fairweather

Neo-Masonry: A new age cultural asset a plea and plan for peaceful change (1974) by Lynn F. Perkins

Thomas Dunckerley: A Remarkable Freemason (1982) by Ron Chudley

Thomas Dunckerley and English Freemasonry by Susan Mitchell Sommers

Masonic Casket - 1823/1826

Opinions on Speculative Masonry - 1830

Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians

A Brief Inquiry into Origins and Principles of Freemasonry (1820) by Simon Greenleaf

Revolution and Freemasonry (1935) by Bernard Fay

The True Masonic Chart (1846) by Jeremy L. Cross

The Early History of Freemasonry in England (1844)

Great American Masons (1924) by George W. Baird

The Antiquities of Freemasonry (1843) by George T. Oliver

'Boston Masonic Mirror' journal, 1830

A Century of Freemasonry in Nantucket (1903) by Alexander Starbuck

The Royal National LIfe-Boat Institution and the Masonic LIfe Boat A century of Association, book, (1973) by Ivan Francis Trinder

Masonic Charities (1987)

Brother Truman (1985) by Allen E. Roberts

A Life of Albert Pike (1997) by Walter Lee Brown

Who is Who in Freemasonry (1986)

Masonic Priorities (1982) by Adewale Thompson

Masonic Gleanings (1956) by Robert Glenn Cole

Masonic Lodge Methods (1953) by L.B. Blakemore

'The Freemason's Calender for the Year 1788, Being Bissextile or Leap year' by Freemasons, Grande Lodge (England) 1788

The Pocket History of Freemasonry(1969) by Fred L. Pick

'Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All The Religions and Governments of Europe Carried Out in the Secret Meetings of Freemasons' (1797) by John Robinson

10,000 Famous Freemasons(1957) by William R. Denslow

On The Origins of Free-Masonry (1810) by Thomas Paine

The Gospel Recommended to Freemasons (June 24, 1803) Festival of St. John the Baptist by Festus Foster

The Secret Warfare of Freemasonry Against Church and State (1875) by G.M. Pachtler

The Discrepancies of Freemasonry (1875) by George Oliver

Masonry The Way to Hell A Sermon, 1768 e-book

The Freemasons(1869) by Louis Gaston de Se'gur

'Masonry is the Same all over the World! Another Masonic Murder (1780) by Samuel Anderson e-book

Stalwart Builders A History of the Grand Lodge of Masons in Massachusetts 1733-1970 (1971) by Thomas Sherrard Roy

The Freemason's Companion, or Pocket Preceptors (1804)

The Masonic Almanac and Pocket Companion, from July to the End of the Year 1801

The Lost Keys of Freemasonry (1976) by Manly P. Hall

Illustrations of Masonry(1792) by William Preston

The Amaranth 'or' Masonic Garland

The Freemason Stripped Naked(1765) by Charles Warren

Fratrimonium Excelsum: A New Ahiman Rezon(1770) by A Worthy Brother

The Freemason's Pocket Companion(1773) by John Entick

Ahiman Rezon (1764) by Laurence Dermott

The Complete Freemason or 'Multa Paucis' For Lovers of Secrets (1764) e-book

Masonic Emblems Explained(1842) by Thaddeus Mason Harris

Conversations on Freemasonry (1976) by Henry Wilson Coil

The Chaplain's Guide to Freemasonry (2016) by J.A. Shapira

FREEMASNRY IS ONLY 152 YEARS OLD!! (1869) e-book

The Jews and Freemasonry by Jacob Katz

___________________________________________________________

There are more minor pamphlets and tracts. And yes I did read this entire list of works, some of which are only ten to twelve pages in length. Very enjoyable reading material.

'SO MOTE IT BE' - y'all.


You'd have been a lot better off if you had started with "The Craft Unmasked!". It would have offered you some great insight into the fantasy that a lot of these books promote.
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Please note that "The Meaning Of Masonry" (circa 1924) was written by Walter Wilmshurst NOT Albert Pike. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2016 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by log cabin Bill log cabin Bill wrote:

Please note that "The Meaning Of Masonry" (circa 1924) was written by Walter Wilmshurst NOT Albert Pike. 



True statement. A good read too. I didn't see Esoterika: The symbolism of the blue degrees of Freemasonry on your list. That one is by Pike, and was another enlightening read.

Edited by Adept? - September/21/2016 at 8:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 11:33am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

You can read all the books you want to. No one person has a monopoly on Freemasonry. Coach can put all his writings out there for others to read. It doesn't mean he is right (or wrong ;) )

Your readings would be the equivalent of a sergeant with every stripe and award having to yield to a 21 year old 1st lieutenant. The only difference is that the sergeant is still in the same organization.

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternity. THAT is what creates the bond. We have all gone as others have gone before us...not because we subscribe to an author.

Good luck on your research.





So there is no correspondence course to becoming raised?
There is. It is called Ritual Work and one's own path to what it means to them. If a Brother assumes what some other Mason put in a book is what Masonry is, then they are cheating themselves out of discovering what it really means for himself. You can't have an "ahah!" moment if you have a preconceived notion of masonry is. There is a part where we tell you to dispel any preconceived notion you may have regarding Freemasonry for this exact reason.

Simply put, your assumptions of Masonry and what it means to the individual vary greatly between each person who receives the degrees. It would be like me commenting on the bond military men share in combat because I watched the history channel or read some books. You being in the military would laugh at me for even assuming one ounce of what that feels like.

Therefore, I say this:

(The ceremonies in which you are about to participate have existed from a remote antiquity and therefore they may be strange and perhaps even meaningless to you since the manners and customs of those ages are so different from those of today.)

I can write that out because it is said to a man before he becomes a mason. My journey through the Craft is not dictated by any author. It is through the teachings at lodge during the degrees, lectures and any other ritual that one may witness as a Master Mason. Only then, can I begin to form an opinion of what I see. Not what someone else tells me to see.

Claudy is not on your list of reading which is interesting. You're tailoring your reading to the glamorous side and not reading anything based in reality. It's hard to distinguish the two until you become a Mason.

Getting back to Claudy: I would not suggest it because it may ruin the experience if you ever decide to petition. Funny thing is, you claim that you would not be accepted. You are essentially cubing yourself at the ballot before you even get to a ballot. You need to subscribe to the, "It's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all," mentality.

You have two outcomes:
1. You petition, air it out and get accepted. Great!
2. You petition, air it out and get cubed. That would be unfortunate, however you will be where you are now in life. A non-mason posting on a message board. The only reason you should be cubed is for masonic reasons. Your IC thinks you're lying or not being candid may get you an unfavorable report. If you have any felonies you may not get in. If you were DD'd from the military, explain why. That may not come up in a background check but, if that is in your past, explain it. I would not cube someone solely based on that without more info. There is no flow chart for "if -> then" when it comes to performing an investigation. The only caveat would be a felony in jurisdictions where it is an automatic DQ.

Hint: If you keep in contact with the lodge "if cubed" and show that you are interested, you can be balloted on again (felony excepting). Hypothetical scenario: A man petitions and is cubed. Six months later he is up for a vote again and gets in. It does happen.





Edited by BroScubaSteve - September/22/2016 at 11:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by log cabin Bill log cabin Bill wrote:

Please note that "The Meaning Of Masonry" (circa 1924) was written by Walter Wilmshurst NOT Albert Pike. 



Hi log cabin Bill,

Thank you for reading my entire list, and thank you for mentioning W.L. Wilmshurst.

And also forgive me for not citing the full reference:

'THE MEANING OF MASONRY Being The First Half Of A Lecture Delivered Before The Grand Lodge Of Louisiana, By Request, in 1858.'
by Albert Pike

book, 66 pages - 1924

Washington D.C.
The Masonic Service Association of the United States.

So I guess there are two works with the same title?

Thanks again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Originally posted by log cabin Bill log cabin Bill wrote:

Please note that "The Meaning Of Masonry" (circa 1924) was written by Walter Wilmshurst NOT Albert Pike. 



True statement. A good read too. I didn't see Esoterika: The symbolism of the blue degrees of Freemasonry on your list. That one is by Pike, and was another enlightening read.


Hi Adept?,

Thanks for the title, 'Esoterika'. But the book I listed, "The Meaning of Masonry" was written by Albert Pike, I just neglected to list the entire reference.

'THE MEANING OF MASONRY Being The First Half Of A Lecture Delivered Before The Grand Lodge Of Louisiana, By Request, in 1858.'
by Albert Pike

book, 66 pages, - 1924

Washington D.C.
The Masonic Service Association of the United States.

Thanks for reading my entire list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

You can read all the books you want to. No one person has a monopoly on Freemasonry. Coach can put all his writings out there for others to read. It doesn't mean he is right (or wrong ;) )


Dr. Steven C. Bullock, Phd, History Professor of Worcester Polytech comes to my mind. I was told here on Mastermason.com forums that he is considered an expert on Freemasonry though he's never been a Mason.

Now I have no intention of trying to become an expert in Freemasonry, I'm just trying to understand the 'Craft' as best as my limited ability enables me. Maybe just being a friend of Masonry is good enough for me.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternity. THAT is what creates the bond. We have all gone as others have gone before us...not because we subscribe to an author.


Understood. Readings are just supplementary information. The only way to know Masonry is to become a Mason and participate regularly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

[QUOTE=BroScubaSteve] You can read all the books you want to. No one person has a monopoly on Freemasonry. Coach can put all his writings out there for others to read. It doesn't mean he is right (or wrong ;) )

Your readings would be the equivalent of a sergeant with every stripe and award having to yield to a 21 year old 1st lieutenant. The only difference is that the sergeant is still in the same organization.

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternity. THAT is what creates the bond. We have all gone as others have gone before us...not because we subscribe to an author.

Good luck on your research.






[QUOTE=BroScubaSteve] Claudy is not on your list of reading which is interesting. You're tailoring your reading to the glamorous side and not reading anything based in reality. It's hard to distinguish the two until you become a Mason.

Getting back to Claudy: I would not suggest it because it may ruin the experience if you ever decide to petition. Funny thing is, you claim that you would not be accepted. You are essentially cubing yourself at the ballot before you even get to a ballot. You need to subscribe to the, "It's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all," mentality.


Hi BroScubaSteve'

Three years ago when I accidentally came across a 'Masonic Bible' I had no idea there was such a wealth of literature generated by the Freemasons.

So when I saw literally thousands of titles about Freemasonry [anti-Mason and pro-Mason] on the Boston Public Library book catalog, I did not know where to begin. I am really not tailoring my Freemason reading list simply because I didn't know what Freemasonry was all about! So I just started cherry-picking titles randomly until I could form some sort of pattern to Freemasonry. I discovered how much I enjoyed the Masonic literature, how much Freemasonry has contributed to History (my forte'), that there was such a thing as 'Anti-Masons' which I never knew existed, and Masonry has a 'philosophy' which really stuck the harpoon in me. There are also titles on other sources such as Amazon.com.

Now, 'Claudy'? I didn't mention him because I haven't read him yet, because of the blizzard of titles and authors and pamphlets presented on the library screen. How do I chose which to read?? But now that you have brought him up -- Carl H. Claudy -- I will certainly find the time to read his works: 'A Master's Wagers' and 'Introduction to Freemasonry' and others.

I've already read all of Coach's Building Better Men Series. So I don't think it will do me any more harm if I read Carl H. Claudy's series, available on amazon.com. Maybe Coach has a rival? NOW I'm gonna haff to read C.H.Claudy to compare & contrast with Coach's Building Better Men series.

I am currently reading: 'The Pythagorean Theorem: A 4,000-year History' (2007) by Dr. Eli Maor, (258 pages), which gives the history of A2 + B2 = C2 and all its proofs and interpretations. Though nothing to do with Masonry per se, it might has some collateral contributions to 'The Craft'.

I appreciate your up-beat attitude as if I were about to petition for a raising, but I really am not going to become a Mason. Friend of Masonry is about it. Thanks guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



Dr. Steven C. Bullock, Phd, History Professor of Worcester Polytech comes to my mind. I was told here on Mastermason.com forums that he is considered an expert on Freemasonry though he's never been a Mason.


I believe I was the one who stated that to the best of my knowledge, Dr. Bullock is not a Mason. For all I know he might be but, I had never seen him at any Masonic function here in Worcester. Also, to the best of my knowledge, nobody in the Worcester Masonic community had ever reached out to him, but I am or was not privy to everything that goes on in it. Pity for whatever reason he is not involved here. He would be an outstanding resource for Masonic education in this area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:



Dr. Steven C. Bullock, Phd, History Professor of Worcester Polytech comes to my mind. I was told here on Mastermason.com forums that he is considered an expert on Freemasonry though he's never been a Mason.


I believe I was the one who stated that to the best of my knowledge, Dr. Bullock is not a Mason. For all I know he might be, but I had never seen him at any Masonic function here in Worcester. Also, to the best of my knowledge, nobody in the Worcester Masonic community has ever reached out to him, but I am or haven't been privy to everything that goes on in it. Pity for whatever reason he is not involved here. He would be an outstanding resource for Masonic education in this area.
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Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:


Hi Adept?,

Thanks for the title, 'Esoterika'. But the book I listed, "The Meaning of Masonry" was written by Albert Pike, I just neglected to list the entire reference.

'THE MEANING OF MASONRY Being The First Half Of A Lecture Delivered Before The Grand Lodge Of Louisiana, By Request, in 1858.'
by Albert Pike

book, 66 pages, - 1924

.

Now that you mention it, I know the very lecture you are referring to, and that is indeed the title of it.  I believe it is actually IN the book Esoterika that I mentioned.  It's either in that, or the Scottish Rite Ritual Monitor and Guide.  My memory fails me as to to which.  There is also a book by Walter Leslie Wilmshurst with the same title as Pikes lecture.


Edited by Adept? - September/22/2016 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Three years ago when I accidentally came across a 'Masonic Bible' I had no idea there was such a wealth of literature generated by the Freemasons.
It is amazing how much information has been amassed by Freemasonic and non-freemasonic authors on this subject.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...Now, 'Claudy'? I didn't mention him because I haven't read him yet, because of the blizzard of titles and authors and pamphlets presented on the library screen. How do I chose which to read?? But now that you have brought him up -- Carl H. Claudy -- I will certainly find the time to read his works: 'A Master's Wagers' and 'Introduction to Freemasonry' and others.

He's a very popular author and as you read some of his materials, I believe you shall see why.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I've already read all of Coach's Building Better Men Series. So I don't think it will do me any more harm if I read Carl H. Claudy's series, available on amazon.com. Maybe Coach has a rival? NOW I'm gonna haff to read C.H.Claudy to compare & contrast with Coach's Building Better Men series.

Claudy complements what I wrote. His focus is on relationships and lessons that can be learned. Mine is more personal development as it relates to what Work Ritual points us toward. You may enjoy what he wrote as it is heart and gut level common sense.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

... but I really am not going to become a Mason. Friend of Masonry is about it. Thanks guys.

Either way, I hope you find what you are looking for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adept? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

You can read all the books you want to. No one person has a monopoly on Freemasonry. Coach can put all his writings out there for others to read. It doesn't mean he is right (or wrong ;) )

Your readings would be the equivalent of a sergeant with every stripe and award having to yield to a 21 year old 1st lieutenant. The only difference is that the sergeant is still in the same organization.

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternity. THAT is what creates the bond. We have all gone as others have gone before us...not because we subscribe to an author.

Good luck on your research.





So there is no correspondence course to becoming raised?
There is. It is called Ritual Work and one's own path to what it means to them.

There is also The Master Craftsmen program (basically a correspondence course) which is offered by the Scottish Rite S.J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2016 at 3:30pm
Actually, Claudy is required reading for new Massachusetts Masons. I know I stated previous there was no required reading aside from the lectures of the degrees. I was mistaken. Required in the sense that candidates are given his books at their degrees and they are discussed at the Lodges of Instruction. There are no tests or quizzes, or no papers to write. There is no way of knowing if a candidate has actually read them or not. Several years ago, the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts purchased the rights to the Claudy books and prints their own edition of them. I have taught a couple of classes in the Lodges of Instruction and I used the original editions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2016 at 9:35am


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Claudy complements what I wrote. His focus is on relationships and lessons that can be learned. Mine is more personal development as it relates to what Work Ritual points us toward. You may enjoy what he wrote as it is heart and gut level common sense.


Thank you for that analysis. I will keep it in mind as I read Claudy.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Either way, I hope you find what you are looking for.



Thank you for that coach!

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Bill Shakespeare: "To thine own self be true".

"To suit yourself, you must know yourself". (p.5)--

from the book: 'DO WHAT YOU ARE: Discover the Perfect Career For You Through The Secrets of Personality Type' (1992) by Paul D. Tieger & Barbara Barron-Tieger.

Edited by GrimoireA3 - September/26/2016 at 9:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2016 at 8:38am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does 'making good men better' or 'building better men' have no truth value?  Based on these frequent Masonic slogans, am I wrong to assume Freemasonry has higher than average standards?

Yes, we do have higher than average standards. Being allowed into our fraternity is a privilege, not a right. Being a Freemason is a gift and not everybody gets to receive that gift. Only those who meet our standards are allowed admission.

By your own admission:
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

But I do have some Tyranosaurus Rex size skeletons in my closet which is why I hesitate to apply for membership [that's all I'm gonna say on that subject].

The slogan is not that we take ANY man and make him better, it is taking good men and making them better. Yes, it is possible to take a good man and make him better, but it appears that you may have committed some seriously heinous crimes in your past or somehow led a life of questionable morals (and we certainly do not need to know about them). You have to be a "good man" in order for us to make you an even better man and it sounds like you do not fit into this category.... by your own admission.

The bottom line is that we can take good men and make them better only AFTER they join and since you apparently have intention of even attempting to join, do not talk to me about the "truth value" of our slogan.


Edited by WBScott - September/24/2016 at 8:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2016 at 8:55am
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Does 'making good men better' or 'building better men' have no truth value?  Based on these frequent Masonic slogans, am I wrong to assume Freemasonry has higher than average standards?
Yes, we do have higher than average standards. Being allowed into our fraternity is a privilege, not a right. Being a Freemason is a gift and not everybody gets to receive that gift. Only those who meet our standards are allowed admission.

By your own admission:
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

But I do have some Tyranosaurus Rex size skeletons in my closet which is why I hesitate to apply for membership [that's all I'm gonna say on that subject].

The slogan is not that we take ANY man and make him better, it is taking good men and making them better. Yes, it is possible to take a good man and make him better, but it appears that you may have committed some seriously heinous crimes in your past or somehow led a life of questionable morals (and we certainly do not need to know about them). You have to be a "good man" in order for us to make you an even better man and it sounds like you do not fit into this category.... by your own admission.

The bottom line is that we can take good men and make them better only AFTER they join and since you apparently have intention of even attempting to join, do not talk to me about the "truth value" of our slogan.

I have a different opinion on this. Freemasonry doesn't do anything other than point members toward what Work will improve them. It's entirely up to them to do that Work (on their own!) and the Organization itself will not lift a finger to help, other than encourage them to keep supporting the system that points its finger at the Work that needs to be done.

Freemasonry does not make good men better.

Here's an overview: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/10/a-brother-asks-making-good-men-better.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2016 at 10:56am
Well I did not mean to imply that a "good man" will automatically become a "better man" simply by virtue of his becoming a Freemason. My point to GrimoireA3 was that Freemasonry will not take a man with "Tyranosaurus Rex size skeletons in their closet" and make him a better man, even if we point them toward what Work will improve him. He is the one who has already disqualified himself from becoming a Freemason, not me.

My second point was that one must become a Freemason in order for us to be of any benefit to him. 


Edited by WBScott - September/24/2016 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2016 at 11:45am
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:


Well I did not mean to imply that a "good man" will automatically become a "better man" simply by virtue of his becoming a Freemason. My point to GrimoireA3 was that Freemasonry will not take a man with "Tyranosaurus Rex size skeletons in their closet" and make him a better man, even if we point them toward what Work will improve him. He is the one who has already disqualified himself from becoming a Freemason, not me.

My second point was that one must become a Freemason in order for us to be of any benefit to him. 

AGREED!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2016 at 12:28pm
Grimoire,

In my experience, if one has any doubts about entering into any endeavor, it is probably best that they do not enter into it. Perhaps these "skeletons" you speak of would not be a problem, I say, "perhaps." And perhaps the other things about Masonry that make you uncomfortable would not be a problem once you were in and could see everything in its proper context. But it's sort of like becoming a Ranger or SEAL- if one has any doubts whatsoever about it, they aren't going to make it. I don't mean to imply that becoming a Mason is anywhere near like becoming a Ranger or SEAL, but the self-doubt part is the same- it just isn't going to work if there is any.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2016 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:


Well I did not mean to imply that a "good man" will automatically become a "better man" simply by virtue of his becoming a Freemason. My point to GrimoireA3 was that Freemasonry will not take a man with "Tyranosaurus Rex size skeletons in their closet" and make him a better man, even if we point them toward what Work will improve him. He is the one who has already disqualified himself from becoming a Freemason, not me.

My second point was that one must become a Freemason in order for us to be of any benefit to him. 



Agreed
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Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

In my experience, if one has any doubts about entering into any endeavor, it is probably best that they do not enter into it. Perhaps these "skeletons" you speak of would not be a problem, I say, "perhaps." And perhaps the other things about Masonry that make you uncomfortable would not be a problem once you were in and could see everything in its proper context. But it's sort of like becoming a Ranger or SEAL- if one has any doubts whatsoever about it, they aren't going to make it. I don't mean to imply that becoming a Mason is anywhere near like becoming a Ranger or SEAL, but the self-doubt part is the same- it just isn't going to work if there is any.


Agreed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote windrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2016 at 1:03pm
I read this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that our friend GrimoireA3 has no interest in becoming a Mason but is intellectually curious about our Fraternity. Those of us who are Masons consider this a silly waste of time for the most part and tend to write those who do follow this path off as anti-masons mainly because most of them are. Our friend here does not seem to lie within our little boxes. 

He seems to have done a lot more reading than many of us have and is trying to sort through the various opinions he has encountered. Many of these opinions contradict others. Pike says every lodge is a temple of religion while others say we are not. It must be very difficult to find the truth when excluded from finding out directly. Some of us have recommended he petition a lodge as a result. 

To me, the issue isn't if GrimoireA3 is allowed to research our Craft, find our secrets, and still not join. This is his right. We have tried to tell him he can never really understand until he joins and experiences it for himself and we are right. It's like reading love stories to understand what it feels like to love someone. I call it looking at the shadow of a beautiful woman. You see the form but there is so much more. 

Our secrets are probably the first thing he found. I'm not sure if he understands that we really don't care. We keep those secrets to show each other we are trustworthy, not because nobody else can know. 

I'm a Massachusetts Mason. I'm the presiding Master of my lodge in my second term. That means I have done the work necessary to manage a lodge, resolve conflict, memorize ritual, and shown my brothers I am capable of leading them within the tenants of our profession: friendship, morality and brotherly love. Unfortunately, our friend will never experience these things. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2016 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by windrider windrider wrote:

Our secrets are probably the first thing he found. I'm not sure if he understands that we really don't care. We keep those secrets to show each other we are trustworthy, not because nobody else can know.


Here is why we don't care: When it comes right down to it, the thing that allows you to sit in a tiled (tyled?) Masonic lodge is not knowing any of the "secrets", it is having a valid dues card.... something he will (apparently) never have!

Edited by WBScott - September/28/2016 at 3:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eagle-751 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2016 at 9:45am
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

Originally posted by windrider windrider wrote:

Our secrets are probably the first thing he found. I'm not sure if he understands that we really don't care. We keep those secrets to show each other we are trustworthy, not because nobody else can know.


Here is why we don't care: When it comes right down to it, the thing that allows you to sit in a tiled (tyled?) Masonic lodge is not knowing any of the "secrets", it is having a valid dues card.... something he will (apparently) never have!


I agree, the card is very important, Ohio has now gone to the new digital membership cards, one quick scan gives what Lodge you belong and if you are in good standing. So if a member would get himself suspended it is updated instantly. Without it you are outside looking in. 
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