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International F&AMM VS. Prince Hall |
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cassellcausey 
Groupie 
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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 Topic: International F&AMM VS. Prince HallPosted: April/19/2009 at 1:27pm |
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I am a young brother that is part of I.F&M.M... and I have a question... well first of all I am not here to put anybody down or even show disrespect if just have some questions.... After I was raised and started to receive more light in masonry... I have seen a lot of talk about I.F&M.M. being bogus or even not having an charter. I have also heard the same about Prince Hall... I come from a long line of Traveling men dating back well over 80 years... My great grand father was a Prince Hall past master and the list goes on for men in my family all being Prince Hall. Now I have noticed that all of them are now International Masons saying they are no longer Prince Hall. So when I was old enough and understood what I was doing I joined international. We are York rite we studying out of Duncan's and I have seen our charter... So I am confused why would a supposed to be brother or brothers say that this is bogus. The only difference I see is that International high lights Christianity, and put a direct belief on God and his son Jesus... So if anyone would like to shed some more light to a brother feel free... thank you and always TRAVEL LIGHT!!!
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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Palmetto Bug
Admin Group 
Co-Chief of Staff of Admins Joined: November/06/2007 Location: South Carolina Online Status: Offline Posts: 2833 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 4:06pm |
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"...I have seen our charter..." But who issued the charter and what is the lineage of the issuing authority?
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Homo sum; humani nihil a me alienum puto.
http://palmettomason.blogspot.com/ |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 4:50pm |
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The Charter is held in Delaware and it is Charted throuth the Grand Lodge of England |
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 4:54pm |
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I was told that all american lodges that were started in the new world. There charter is held in the state of Delaware... and the Grand Lodge of England give Delaware the right to govern over the lodges in the United States of America.
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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Flotown79
Moderator Group 
King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 5:14pm |
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CassellCausey the history of International Masons that I have read states: "This fraternal organization was incorporated and chartered in August of 1950 in Detroit, Michigan. This Charter empowered International Masons to practice Freemasonry, and operate as a Masonic Order, throughout the United States, its possessions and territories. This American issued charter empowers, International Masons to the same rights as those charters issued directly from the Grand Lodge of England or the Grand Orient of France." It was not issued by the UGLE. Source: http://www.geocities.com/kinglyonsnwilliams/intlmason.html Edited by Flotown79 - April/19/2009 at 5:16pm |
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 5:18pm |
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? doesn't the UGLE give the American charter permission.
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 5:30pm |
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? why is there so many argument between different entities. I understand why women are not allowed to became Freemasons and any lodge that does is bogus... But when you have individuals arguing about who is right and who came first... It is not hard... so what is the arguing about... Just understand I love Freemasonry and I want to learn... if I meet a brother black, white, green purple or yellow I am going to pick his brain and try to get as much knowledge and I can. So I ask the brothers in my lodge and I like to talk to other brothers is see and now I came on here just to get some info and feed this brain of mine.
Also didn't the Grand Lodge of France knowingly issued charters to lodges that allowed atheist and women? |
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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Palmetto Bug
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Co-Chief of Staff of Admins Joined: November/06/2007 Location: South Carolina Online Status: Offline Posts: 2833 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 7:18pm |
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Causey; you have much to learn. Let us start with France for an example. Which Grand Lodge in France are you referring to? There are at least three that jump to the top of my mind. The one associated with the atheists and women would probably be the Grand Orient of France, which is generally not recognized by any legitimate Masonic body.
I can assure you that no one in Delaware was given authority by the UGLE to govern all lodges in the US. Someone has shot you a line of sh*t.
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Homo sum; humani nihil a me alienum puto.
http://palmettomason.blogspot.com/ |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 7:46pm |
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I know I have a lot to learn that's why I am here because I want to learn and understand. I must ask it the Grand Orient of France is the one that is associated with atheists and women... Then I know for a fact that it is not associated with IF&AMM... ? what do you know about IF&AMM and PHA and what is you outlook... you seem to have some knowledge and I want you to truthfully let know what you think, know and your sources... don't have to give me the answer just direct me. That is the only way I will learn. I appreciate your input.
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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tm274
Moderator Group
The True Time Traveller .ยท. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: West.Australia Online Status: Online Posts: 2157 |
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Posted: April/19/2009 at 10:56pm |
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I like your honesty in wanting to learn.
I'm no great historian on Freemasonry, and there are a lot more Freemasons out there that would run rings around me with their knowlege, but I try to assist as best I can with my knowledge.
The best I can do is point you to this site and it just may help you.
If we(the forum) can be of any assistance........just ask.
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. If a Mod doesn't get you, don't relax....Max will. |
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edwmax
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Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 4:06am |
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http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/international.php After the IF&AM was incorporated, itself issued its own Masonic Charter for $50k. This was the same way the Modern Masons of the World started in 1917. So who's pocket did the $50k go into? ..... William V. Banks .... The IF&AM has no history or heritage before 1950,and no recognitin or Charter from any existing Masonic Grand Lodge in the world, US mainstream GL, PHA or UGLE recognized GL anyway. These are the only ones that count. http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/recruitbanks.php A recruiting add used by the IF&AM. Odd, people are (or were) paid to recruit members, not in regular Freemasonry. http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/modernfree.php History of the Modern Masons of the World which is where Wm V Banks came and was suspended from before founding the IF&AM. http://www.hariam.org/CHWR/fbr2.html Additional info.
It is up to you, ....... but run, don't walk, ..... to the nest PHA and ask to be HEALED and get the heritage that you were told you had.. ...... The IF&AM as with most clandestin/bogus groups in the US are setup on pyramid scheme to put $$$ in the pockets of the top management. Out of curiosity, how much were your initiation/joining fees? ........ Ours usally about $100 to $200, which bearly cover cost of apron, manule/code books and maybe first years dues. Edited by edwmax - April/20/2009 at 9:28am |
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EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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edwmax
Admin Group
Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 4:24am |
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Interesting that you state that. I believe it was Wm V Bank's widow that proclaimed herself as head of the IF&AM (Grand Mistress ??? ..... haha) after his death. |
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***************
EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
Quote Reply
Posted: April/20/2009 at 7:49am |
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She is not... but she did try... She was very upset because she failed to realize that a Woman can not join or Male Masonic Order... Brother she did try and believe me if she did... I would not be part of this Masonic Order... We practice and we follow Masonic Law.... My W.M. gave us the story behind that... I don't know if you know but she tried to stop IF&AM from going forward after Dr. Wm V Bank's death because of that reason. They would not let her lead or join the male Masonic Order.... She tried to come over from O.E.S and slide in Dr. Wm V Bank's position... But Brother she did not she ended up leaving the Order completely because of that... LOL
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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Flotown79
Moderator Group
King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 8:18am |
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The Charter is the main issue. All PHA GL's trace back to African Lodge #459 and the UGLE. IF&AM can not say that.
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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edwmax
Admin Group
Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 8:30am |
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Well, I'll bet the story that you are not being told and not made public is that William V Banks owned the controlling interest of the IF&AM corporration and that ownership passed to his Widow. They (IF&AM or other corporate share holders) HAD to buy her out! Her actions just put the pressure on the IF&AM to do so. ........ Think about it! This has to be true or the Widow could not have done what she did and the IF&AM HAD no way to stop her except buy her out. ...... I'll bet she was WELL PAID! Edited by edwmax - April/20/2009 at 8:33am |
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***************
EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 8:44am |
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When dealing with a marriage that may be true... But her being an Eastern Star she knew that she could not do what she wanted with the International's... So if she was paid that is speculation I do not know and nobody my never know... I just know that she tried and Failed... It is Masonic Law.
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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Flotown79
Moderator Group
King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 8:52am |
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One must look at the way IF&AM was set up. It is a business with share holders. Someone knows if she was paid or not. All one has to do is look at the books. As a member you should be able to look at the books and decide for yourself.
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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cassellcausey
Groupie
Joined: April/19/2009 Location: Ohio Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 8:55am |
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and that is one thing that I wondered about when that conversation came about... She is a woman what is there to fight... Brothers yall are really shedding some Light on this for me.
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M.W.P.H.G.L. of Ohio
Bro. Causey |
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edwmax
Admin Group
Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 8:59am |
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I'm sure Banks' Widow knew that and that if she really tried to be the Grand Master or Mistress, it would only destroy IF&AM & its OES. All she had to do was sit back and collect her corporate check & dividends and let status quo be. So that fight had to be about MONEY. How much she could get, not control.
The Corporate ownship is public record and can be researched in the State Secretary's office |
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EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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edwmax
Admin Group
Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 9:12am |
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I really dout this is part of the GL (IF&AM) records. Only the GL paid the Corporation a per capita tax for each paying member. The corporation paid its CEOs & shareholders from this. |
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***************
EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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Flotown79
Moderator Group
King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 9:22am |
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Leaving Mrs. Banks out, no GL chartered IF&AM. Please ask members (leadership) of your GL, what three or more Lodges formed the IF&AM original GL, and what GL gave them the charter to start their own GL. This is the only way. I promise you that you will not get a straight answer to those questions.
My frat brother was giving the run around in '03 and I am sure the same will be done to you. Now dont get me wrong, the IF&AM have done some good things in communities but they are a clandestine group. |
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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edwmax
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Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 9:47am |
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Check your facts Flotown. That is what is unique about both the Modern Masons of the World started in 1917 and the IF&AM in 1950. A holding corporation was formed and the each Corporation issued the it own Charter. They could not get a Charter otherwise and/or did not want to cut anyone else in. This why each is irregular and clandestine. The holding Corp owns the its GL and all of its subordinate Lodges.
William Banks, who was a lawyer, was suspended from the Modern Masons of the World. He simple did the same thing with the IF&AM. IF&AM paid $50k for their charter. So who did they pay the $50k to? The holding Corp. which was William Banks and his partners. Both of these organizations tried to hide this fact by forming alliances with other Masonic groups. PS: Flo, I think I misread your post. Your are right. No 3 Lodges came together and formed these GLs as would normally be done. Edited by edwmax - April/20/2009 at 9:51am |
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EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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Jedi Stranger
Quarrymen 
Joined: May/08/2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 61 |
Quote Reply
Posted: April/20/2009 at 12:32pm |
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So with this new info Mr. Cassell will you continue on your path with the IF&AM?
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MWPHGL Of LA. Acacia #248
RA Chapter Gesthemane #3 N.O. Council #1 (Cryptic) Pelican Commandary Jericho #5 Y.B.Y.S.A.I.A |
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loveforthecraftPHA
Quarrymen
Joined: March/26/2008 Location: Griffin, GA Online Status: Offline Posts: 166 |
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Posted: April/20/2009 at 3:59pm |
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I'd like to know if you continue on myself because it sounds like a bunch of racket. I hope that you are informed enough now to make a change.
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MW Stringer Grand Lodge (PHA)
Traveling since April 7, 2001 "We don't need young men in masonry, we need masonry in young men" |
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seekthetruth
Newbie 
Joined: April/23/2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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Posted: April/23/2009 at 9:59am |
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Albeit this is a GREAT discussion, the fact remains that in order to JUDGE an organization'ss legitamecy you must have more information than what you can find on the internet. Just because you have a link to a site that has some information does not make it the TRUTH. I have been in International Masons for more than 15 years, and i have heard all of the stories about what Ms. Banks attempted to accomplish after the death of Dr. Banks. The information that is talked about now comes from a book that his daughter published, and i can tell you that there are many un-truths in that book.
The subject matter that is at the forefront appears to be the charter that empowers ANY masonic body to work. Now, Mackey's book of Jurisprudence states that any lodge must have 1 of 3 things to operate: 1. A charter 2. A warrent 3. A dispensation
Lets take a quick glance at this. In order for a true Grand Lodge to be originated, there shall be 3 subordinate lodges present to start it, correct? Well one brother on here posted that all Prince Hall Grand Lodges originate from Afican Lodge #459 out of Mass. Which, according to my research is correct. But from there, they applied to the Grand Lodge of Mass for a charter and they were denied. Then they applied to the Grand Lodge in England and they were denied based on the fact that the Grand Lodge of England was aware that the Grand Lodge of Mass denied the same request. As PH history is told, they "received" a charter at a later time from the Grand Lodge of England. This is widely disputed. Why would the Grand Lodge of England issue a charter to PH knowing that the Grand Lodge of Mass had denied it? Another point, if PH DID get a charter, it had to have been a charter for a local/subordinate lodge correct? So how did any of the other PH lodges get started/chartered? As we stated before, it takes at least 3 local lodges to have a Grand Lodge, and only a Grand Lodge can issue a charter. A Grand Master can issue a warrent or dispensation, but that only empowers a lodge to do certain things, which does not include the ability to initiate/pass/raise any brothers.
We should be VERY careful when we use the words bogus or clandistine, for appearently we dont all know the true origins of our Masonic bodies. International is somewhat set up like a business, in that finances and taxes and endowments come into play. But, this is why our membership has somewhat stabilized, whereas many of the Masonic bodies that I confer with across the country are losing members by the droves. We actually give back to the members and their families. Dr. Banks had a vision in the 50's and it was to ensure that the fraternal organization that he was starting would be able to financailly support itself through the economic hard times.
PH has had a problem with International for many years, taking International to court in the early 80's was PH's lowpoint. The court case was centered around the use of the word MODERN in our title. PH maintained that this word changed the laws of Masonry. International did not change any of the LANDMARKS, but what we did do was ensure that everyman would have a FAIR chance at gaining membership into a masonic lodge. Bloodline admittance was not something that Dr. Banks cared for and he wanted to make sure that people knew that our organization would be handled differently than the others. Different does not mean bogus or clandistine. HISTORY, or shall i say HIS-STORY can be clouded to help the entire Willie Lynch syndrome survive. Brothers, do not allow these falicies to stop each masonic body from being the best that they can be.
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Flotown79
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King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/23/2009 at 10:23am |
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Prince Hall established African Lodge #459 of
Philadelphia on March 22, 1797 and Hiram Lodge #3 in Providence, Rhode
Island on June 25, 1797. African Lodge of Boston became the "Mother Lodge." The African Grand Lodge was not organized until 1808 with these three Lodges.
Prince Hall was made a Provincial Grand Master as well, which gave him the authority to set up lodges in other colonies/states. By the time, AL #459/#370 (was renumbered at the formation of the UGLE), was considered off the rolls of the UGLE, the concept of American Grand Lodges were in full effect. Three local lodges (in some cases two) form a GL, once that GL is formed, it's sovereignty is absolute. Many "MS" lodges had been dropped from the rolls of the UGLE as well and established grand lodges in like manner Now please inform the forum of the three lodges Mr. Banks had to form the IF&AM GL and please inform us of where this charter came from. |
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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Flotown79
Moderator Group
King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/23/2009 at 11:20am |
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Why would the UGLE recognize most PHA GL if they didn't issue a Charter? It seems odd to me that a GL would recognize a another GL that is lying on them.
This is the problem, even you admit that the proper steps were not taken to form this GL. If one does not want to follow the rules, well we know the rest of this story..... Edited by Flotown79 - April/23/2009 at 11:27am |
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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edwmax
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Chief of Staff of the Admin Group Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2114 |
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Posted: April/23/2009 at 11:36am |
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Flotown, doesn't that original Charter still exist and in the hands of PHA? That in itself is proof of PHA's linage over IF&AM, PHO and all the rest of them. Edited by edwmax - April/23/2009 at 11:37am |
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EAs don't bite the Admin, We do know how to Muzzle you! *************** PM of Cairo Lodge #299 (Cairo, Ga.) |
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Flotown79
Moderator Group
King of the Smilies Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Online Status: Offline Posts: 3107 |
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Posted: April/23/2009 at 11:59am |
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It is and it is in Boston, Mass.
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"Even with all of the recent advances in Masonic Education, there still remains no effective means by which you can communicate with a brother that already knows everything." - Ron Robinson |
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CAMB.MASON
Quarrymen
Joined: December/23/2008 Location: cambridge,mass. Online Status: Offline Posts: 553 |
Quote Reply
Posted: April/24/2009 at 8:30am |
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the charter does still exist, thou badly fire damaged from a fire years ago, it is now kept in a safe in a boston bank.
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i remain fraternally yours
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