Mastermason.com Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Public Masonic Discussions > Masonic Discussion Board
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Grammar and Rhetoric
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Grammar and Rhetoric

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Sec'yBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: April/23/2015
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sec'yBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Grammar and Rhetoric
    Posted: October/07/2016 at 4:17pm
I too was at Dachau  and cried almost all the way through.  Very sad

Today's children however  are being influenced by adults who ...............well I will leave that alone for fear of being banned from this site.


Raised 2001
PM Crestwood-Anchor #443
PM Meramec #313
Past DDGM
Lodge Education Officer
Missouri Lodge of Research
O.E.S. Chapter 129
Back to Top
WBScott View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: October/18/2014
Location: Wright City, MO
Status: Offline
Points: 259
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2016 at 11:12am
Dupe

Edited by WBScott - October/07/2016 at 11:14am
Wentzville (MO) Lodge #46 - PM
Pride of the West (MO) Lodge #179 - PM (twice)
Pauldingville (MO) Lodge #11 - Secretary
Warrenton (MO) Lodge #609 - Secretary
Past DDGM - 25th Masonic District
Back to Top
WBScott View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: October/18/2014
Location: Wright City, MO
Status: Offline
Points: 259
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WBScott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2016 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Sec'yBob Sec'yBob wrote:

And Bro Scuba Steve.........the Germans did not bomb Pearl Harbor,  my neighbor told me it was photoshopped just like the moon landing.      Do I sound bitter??????

Originally posted by Sec'yBob Sec'yBob wrote:

I have had kids at my school, tell me that the Holocaust never happened also. When I question them they tell me one of two things:
Their parents told them it is not true, or
They don't believe it  because it is impossible to think that that many people were murdered.

I have never been to the moon, but I have been to the Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor and have also been to the camp at Dachau. Let me tell you, this stuff was not Photo Shopped!

And yes, I did get the reference to Animal House!


Edited by WBScott - October/07/2016 at 11:16am
Wentzville (MO) Lodge #46 - PM
Pride of the West (MO) Lodge #179 - PM (twice)
Pauldingville (MO) Lodge #11 - Secretary
Warrenton (MO) Lodge #609 - Secretary
Past DDGM - 25th Masonic District
Back to Top
Sec'yBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: April/23/2015
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sec'yBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2016 at 8:13am
I have had kids at my school, tell me that the Holocaust never happened also. When I question them they tell me one of two things:
Their parents told them it is not true, or
They don't believe it  because it is impossible to think that that many people were murdered.
Raised 2001
PM Crestwood-Anchor #443
PM Meramec #313
Past DDGM
Lodge Education Officer
Missouri Lodge of Research
O.E.S. Chapter 129
Back to Top
scout View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July/11/2013
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 47
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/06/2016 at 12:59pm
Now that's closer to the truth. The myriad of districts with their highly variable requirements and the ill-informed state legislators who attempt to legislate educational reform as if they're dealing with a factory churning out widgets.  All of these things, and more, conspire to defeat the best efforts of the teacher to educate kids.
Back to Top
BroScubaSteve View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman


Joined: February/25/2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/06/2016 at 7:16am
Originally posted by Sec'yBob Sec'yBob wrote:

And Bro Scuba Steve.........the Germans did not bomb Pearl Harbor,  my neighbor told me it was photoshopped just like the moon landing.      Do I sound bitter??????
I've never heard that one before. Is that a real conspiracy theory going around in parts of the country?
Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ
Back to Top
Sec'yBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: April/23/2015
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sec'yBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2016 at 6:28pm
Wind  rider you may have hit the nail on the head

The school district I worked for had a slogan which at this time I cannot remember, but it said that everyone moves along in progression

The school district I live in says  " No student left behind"

I suppose we are not allowed to fail anyone, you know, individual rights, equal rights, everybodies rights to entitlement.   Third graders have rights to not be left behind even if they fail to perform and pass.!!!!
even if it affects their performance in later grades.

And Bro Scuba Steve.........the Germans did not bomb Pearl Harbor,  my neighbor told me it was photoshopped just like the moon landing.      Do I sound bitter??????
Raised 2001
PM Crestwood-Anchor #443
PM Meramec #313
Past DDGM
Lodge Education Officer
Missouri Lodge of Research
O.E.S. Chapter 129
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2240
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2016 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by scout scout wrote:



  The reasons for student failure are legion, 
 

Amen.
Back to Top
windrider View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/02/2011
Location: NChelmsford, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 363
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2016 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by scout scout wrote:



(That's exactly what I'm talking about. What possesses teachers to allow a high school student to be illiterate? )

Teachers do not "allow" students to be illiterate any more than policemen allow people to become criminals or doctors allow their patients to contract a behavior related disease.  The reasons for student failure are legion, but I can assure you that poor teaching is at the bottom of the list.


How does a student progress up the grades without achieving the minimum standards of literacy for the prior grade? My wife had to repeat a couple of grades due to her inability to meet minimum standards. A high school student should know the rules of grammar, punctuation, spelling and be capable of revising a report after proof reading. 

Is it the teacher who gives a B+ for a document that is nearly indecipherable? Is it the school that wants to just move them along? Is it the school system measuring the wrong things in evaluating those schools and teachers? I don't know the answer but it may be all of them and more. 

We as a society are not serving our children or ourselves by providing inadequate education. I'm reminded of the old movie "Idiocracy".




Edited by windrider - October/05/2016 at 1:03pm
Master, Webmaster, Lodge Ambassador
Ancient York Lodge AF&AM

Lowell, MA

God never sends us anything we can't handle. Sometimes I wish He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa
Back to Top
scout View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July/11/2013
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 47
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2016 at 9:17am


(That's exactly what I'm talking about. What possesses teachers to allow a high school student to be illiterate? )

Teachers do not "allow" students to be illiterate any more than policemen allow people to become criminals or doctors allow their patients to contract a behavior related disease.  The reasons for student failure are legion, but I can assure you that poor teaching is at the bottom of the list.





[/QUOTE]
Back to Top
BroScubaSteve View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman


Joined: February/25/2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2016 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Sec'yBob Sec'yBob wrote:

I just thought of another incident at the same high school.

My supervisor was the 9th grade principal and we were good friends and almost exactly the same age.

He approached me one day and asked if I thought education has improved since we were in school.
I told him a resounding  NO.

He seemed upset and a mild debate began. As we were talking, the bell range for passing, and we were standing in the hall, so we stepped aside to let the students go by.

While there, he sees a student coming and says to me,  I will prove that I am right, Brandon here, is a very good student.  I will test him and show you are wrong.

He calls the kid over, and says to him....." I want to ask you a simple question, no tricks, and please give me a simple best answer.  Brandon agrees, so the Principal asked him  "Who won the Civil War?"
and he replies  "That's easy, the Germans"

True story!
No, the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

(movie reference)
Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ
Back to Top
windrider View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/02/2011
Location: NChelmsford, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 363
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2016 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Sec'yBob Sec'yBob wrote:

I worked at a High School for awhile after retirement.

As I was walking in the hallway, I spied a piece of paper on the floor, and thinking some student might need it, I picked it up with the intent on returning it to them.

This is what I found:

It was a 8 1/2 x11 piece of paper, torn from a spiral binder.

At the very top, was  "my summer vacation"   the quotes are mine.

Then immediately after that it starts, with a description of the vacation.  All sentences ran together, no punctuation, no capital letters, in print, not cursive, and a ton of misspelled words.  It filled the page completely right to the very bottom.

There was no name on the paper, no class nor anything else, but the teacher signed it with her initials, and gave the student a B+

This was just 4 years ago.  That kid is probably out in the work force by now.


Bob Bauer
Secretary Meramec Lodge #313
DDGM  Dist #24



That's exactly what I'm talking about. What possesses teachers to allow a high school student to be illiterate? 





Master, Webmaster, Lodge Ambassador
Ancient York Lodge AF&AM

Lowell, MA

God never sends us anything we can't handle. Sometimes I wish He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa
Back to Top
Sec'yBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: April/23/2015
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sec'yBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2016 at 8:48am
I just thought of another incident at the same high school.

My supervisor was the 9th grade principal and we were good friends and almost exactly the same age.

He approached me one day and asked if I thought education has improved since we were in school.
I told him a resounding  NO.

He seemed upset and a mild debate began. As we were talking, the bell range for passing, and we were standing in the hall, so we stepped aside to let the students go by.

While there, he sees a student coming and says to me,  I will prove that I am right, Brandon here, is a very good student.  I will test him and show you are wrong.

He calls the kid over, and says to him....." I want to ask you a simple question, no tricks, and please give me a simple best answer.  Brandon agrees, so the Principal asked him  "Who won the Civil War?"
and he replies  "That's easy, the Germans"

True story!
Raised 2001
PM Crestwood-Anchor #443
PM Meramec #313
Past DDGM
Lodge Education Officer
Missouri Lodge of Research
O.E.S. Chapter 129
Back to Top
Sec'yBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: April/23/2015
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sec'yBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2016 at 8:42am
I worked at a High School for awhile after retirement.

As I was walking in the hallway, I spied a piece of paper on the floor, and thinking some student might need it, I picked it up with the intent on returning it to them.

This is what I found:

It was a 8 1/2 x11 piece of paper, torn from a spiral binder.

At the very top, was  "my summer vacation"   the quotes are mine.

Then immediately after that it starts, with a description of the vacation.  All sentences ran together, no punctuation, no capital letters, in print, not cursive, and a ton of misspelled words.  It filled the page completely right to the very bottom.

There was no name on the paper, no class nor anything else, but the teacher signed it with her initials, and gave the student a B+

This was just 4 years ago.  That kid is probably out in the work force by now.


Bob Bauer
Secretary Meramec Lodge #313
DDGM  Dist #24


Raised 2001
PM Crestwood-Anchor #443
PM Meramec #313
Past DDGM
Lodge Education Officer
Missouri Lodge of Research
O.E.S. Chapter 129
Back to Top
windrider View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/02/2011
Location: NChelmsford, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 363
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2016 at 8:18pm
Foreigners I can understand. Most of them are hardly intelligible. The ones that are from the US and can't spell, use grammar or punctuation are the ones I want to tell to come back when they learn to write. What do teachers do these days? It must drive them insane to see a large portion of young adults being functionally illiterate. The excuse is usually: "I'm using a mobile device." To which I answer, "So am I. It simply takes a little effort to proof read before you hit submit." Perhaps I've been doing this too long...

Master, Webmaster, Lodge Ambassador
Ancient York Lodge AF&AM

Lowell, MA

God never sends us anything we can't handle. Sometimes I wish He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa
Back to Top
BroScubaSteve View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman


Joined: February/25/2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BroScubaSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2016 at 7:30am
Originally posted by windrider windrider wrote:

This is one of my "hot buttons", too. I'm a moderator on a very popular forum geared toward those who would like to join the Fraternity. I see constant misuse of common words, "text spelling", misspelled words, lack of punctuation and grammatical errors that would have earned me a smack on the knuckles with a ruler back in high school. 

One of the most common errors I see is the misuse of the word "apart". I will often see sentences along the lines of: "I want to be apart of the Masons." Well, you already are, my friend. I think you meant to say, "I want to be a part of the Masons." 

A wonderful example of the contribution punctuation lends to understanding is, "Eats shoots and leaves." as in, "The Panda eats shoots and leaves." The hunter eats, shoots and leaves. What a difference a comma can make.




I know the forum you are eluding to. I think half the problem there is that the top hits of "masonic forums" gets an influx of foreign men posting on American boards because their country doesn't have a masonic presence or it is outlawed. (or they are secret police trolling for members in their country)
Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ
Back to Top
windrider View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/02/2011
Location: NChelmsford, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 363
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2016 at 1:57pm
This is one of my "hot buttons", too. I'm a moderator on a very popular forum geared toward those who would like to join the Fraternity. I see constant misuse of common words, "text spelling", misspelled words, lack of punctuation and grammatical errors that would have earned me a smack on the knuckles with a ruler back in high school. 

One of the most common errors I see is the misuse of the word "apart". I will often see sentences along the lines of: "I want to be apart of the Masons." Well, you already are, my friend. I think you meant to say, "I want to be a part of the Masons." 

A wonderful example of the contribution punctuation lends to understanding is, "Eats shoots and leaves." as in, "The Panda eats shoots and leaves." The hunter eats, shoots and leaves. What a difference a comma can make.




Master, Webmaster, Lodge Ambassador
Ancient York Lodge AF&AM

Lowell, MA

God never sends us anything we can't handle. Sometimes I wish He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa
Back to Top
GrimoireA3 View Drop Down
Banned
Banned


Joined: May/05/2013
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrimoireA3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2016 at 10:38am
While still emphasized in Great Britain, the study of Rhetoric has all but disappeared from the general public school curriculum in the USA.

Rhetoric has four elements:

1.) Bathos - When a writer falls into inconsequential and absurd metaphors to be increasingly emotional, i.e. the 'anti-climax'.

2.) Pathos - appeal to the emotions of the audience (what lawyers do to the jury to win their case, not find the truth).

3.)Ethos - guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community.

4.) Logos - To reason dispassionately using logic or any system of reasoning. Learn your logical fallacies. What Sherlock Holmes did to solve a crime.

Rhetoric and 'debate' needs to be reemphasized in America.
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
Back to Top
Adrian N. Gollop View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: December/18/2012
Location: Trinidad
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adrian N. Gollop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2012 at 6:29am
Good point.  There's also the fact that there's new language/abbreviations which they use sometimes giving new meanings and expressions.
"Be True to what you do, and what you do will be True to you." ~ Adrian N. Gollop
Back to Top
Adrian N. Gollop View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: December/18/2012
Location: Trinidad
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adrian N. Gollop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2012 at 6:21am
Well said my friend.   "God, ' says Sanctius, "created man the participant of reason; and as he willed him to be a social being, he bestowed upon him the gift of language, in the perfecting of which there are three aids. The first is Grammar, which rejects from language all solecisms and barbarous expressions; the second is Logic, which is occupied with the truthfulness of language; and the third is Rhetoric, which seeks only the adornment of language."Star
"Be True to what you do, and what you do will be True to you." ~ Adrian N. Gollop
Back to Top
Veritas View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: December/10/2009
Location: us
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Veritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2012 at 5:14pm
a
Back to Top
daves View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: January/21/2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3811
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2012 at 6:14pm
Couldn't agree more, Bob. Some of my happiest memories with my three sons was reading to them at bedtime. And, yes, they all started reading for themselves early, and grew up with a love of books.
The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20)
18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5)
The Carrington Lodge



Back to Top
rchadwic View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: June/04/2011
Location: Palm Bay, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 220
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rchadwic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2012 at 5:00pm
Just happened on this post.... I have 3 kids, all adults now. When they were little, I read to them every night. As time went on, they started to read to me. About the time the oldest boy was 11 or so, When we were visiting my parents, I commented to my mother that they really enjoyed reading. She got that funny smile that mothers get when dispensing momentuous information....
"You like reading, don't you?"
"Uh.. yeah...." (I always have.)
"I used to read to you and your brother and sister when you were little"
The penny dropped about then, and I realised that she was right, that reading to them when they are babies and toddlers instills a comfortable feeling and induces them to like reading.
My middle son and his wife are reproducing. We have started buying books for the kid. Maybe he/she won't read books, but whatever media is there, I expect him/her to be an avid reader by the age of 5 or 6.

Bob Chadwick
Palm Bay #397
Palm Bay, Fla
Back to Top
daves View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: January/21/2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3811
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2012 at 5:58pm
I agree Bro Droche. May I make one other suggestion? Read to you children when they're toddlers. Not only do they learn the beauty of language, it also inspires them to learn to read and gives them a love of reading for life (if my children are anything to go by). It's also one of the best parts of being a parent.
The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20)
18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5)
The Carrington Lodge



Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 2240
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2012 at 9:42am
I am a special education teacher. Part of my job is to teach writing to high school students with moderate special needs, English being a second language to many of them. I too lament the deterioration and lack of emphasis on writing skills in our schools. I am known to be a fairly decent writer, however, my penmanship is terrible as I do not have well developed fine motor coordination.

How did I develop my writing skills? Two things:

1. I read a lot. Reading and writing is like tasting and smelling. One cannot taste without the sense of smell. Likewise, IMO, (with perhaps a few exceptions) one cannot develop writing skills without being able to read decently. My writing skills really took off when I started reading Charles Dickens, a very complex but effective writer. It doesn't have to be Charles Dickens, it can be any advanced writer. 

2. Some may laugh or find this hard to believe- I use a fountain pen. My penmanship is so bad that a fountain pen with its increased friction forces me to slow down and makes my writing more legible. I then read somewhere that years ago, students used fountain or ink pens for writing and it forced them to slow down and form their letters. The slower process also allowed them greater time to think about what they were going to write and improved their writing.

When it comes to Grammar, proper standard English puts us on the same page. Has anyone tried to read writing by common English people in the 1600's? Try reading John Smith's account of encountering animals and Indians in the New World. Very difficult to understand. Likewise today, many of our high school students were taught writing under the Whole Language system which did not emphasize spelling and grammar. Thankfully, Whole Language, while it had is merits, is no longer taught, but the damage has been done in many cases. However with text messaging, these new slangs and abbreviations have come in and I fear we are going backwards once again.
Back to Top
windrider View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/02/2011
Location: NChelmsford, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 363
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2012 at 11:07am
Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

Not sure if this is a good place for this, but I'm giving it a shot.  When I post lately a string of text is in front of my message. 

I see nothing wrong.
Master, Webmaster, Lodge Ambassador
Ancient York Lodge AF&AM

Lowell, MA

God never sends us anything we can't handle. Sometimes I wish He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa
Back to Top
goomba View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: February/08/2012
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Points: 408
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2012 at 6:58pm
Not sure if this is a good place for this, but I'm giving it a shot.  When I post lately a string of text is in front of my message. 
Back to Top
jaya View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: November/16/2010
Location: Western NC
Status: Offline
Points: 2628
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 7:51pm
We are argueing about if a word is real or not. Brethren, this is just nuts.
Jay Austin

Black Mountain 663 - Junior Warden
AASR Valley of Asheville - KSA
The Masonic Society

http://westernncmason.blogspot.com
Back to Top
masonic.truths View Drop Down
Muzzled
Muzzled
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

So ... it is not a slang word.   It is in Webster's.   ... and it was not a misspelling in the 1913 dictionary.
Just because it is in Webster's does not mean it is not slang.  Some Dictionaries include ain't, but that doesn't mean that it isn't slang.
 
Webster's Revised Unabrideged Dictionary is a descriptive Dictionary:

"Descriptive dictionaries describe the language. They include words that are commonly used even if they are nonstandard. They will often include nonstandard spellings. Prescriptive dictionaries tend to be more concerned about correct or standard English. They prescribe the proper usage and spelling of words. That school dictionary in which I found ain't was a descriptive dictionary."

The citations in my previous post make it clear that proper (standard) usage dictates the use of "inappropriate" when you are indicating something is not appropriate.
 
Nonstandard usage of a word is slang.
 
 

 
 


Edited by masonic.truths - May/07/2012 at 11:14am
Back to Top
BigBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/10/2011
Location: Jacksonville
Status: Offline
Points: 930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 3:36pm
No problemo mon frere.
Ribualt Lodge 272 - SW
Jacksonville 12 R.A.M. - King
Hallmark 2 R.S.M.
I-09.21.10
P-11.18.10
R-02.15.11
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6945
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 3:32pm
So ... it is not a slang word.   It is in Webster's.   ... and it was not a misspelling in the 1913 dictionary and has been in use since before 1800 (see websters).  Even masonic.truths' link shows this.


Edited by edwmax - May/05/2012 at 3:54pm
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
masonic.truths View Drop Down
Muzzled
Muzzled
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

No   ....

" .... Un`ap`pro´pri`ate
a.1.Inappropriate; unsuitable.

2.Not appropriated.
v. t.1.To take from private possession; to restore to the possession or right of all; as, to unappropriate a monopoly.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co."
 

"Unappropriate" is a common misspelling or typo for: inappropriate, unappropriated, unappropriater, unappropriates.

 
Webster's Revised Unabrideged Dictionary is a descriptive Dictionary:

"Descriptive dictionaries describe the language. They include words that are commonly used even if they are nonstandard. They will often include nonstandard spellings. Prescriptive dictionaries tend to be more concerned about correct or standard English. They prescribe the proper usage and spelling of words. That school dictionary in which I found ain't was a descriptive dictionary."

 
"Inappropriate is the standard English term (it actually has Latin roots).

English does have a number of prefixes and suffixes which are nearly synonymous, so people, especially in everyday speech, will construct nonstandard words like “unappropriate.” Since we all know that un- means “not,” we know what the person is saying. I suppose you could also say “nonappropriate.” However, usually there is a standard form based on historical use and understanding. That word is inappropriate in this case.

Some dictionaries might include words like “unappropriate” or “nonappropriate” because someone somewhere used the word in a serious manner. Such dictionaries are called descriptive dictionaries; they merely describe the word used without making any observation about its propriety or standard use.

Some people would see such invented constructions as a sign of lack of education or lack of understanding. In the example you gave, use inappropriate even though we may understand the other words. Using the others may give some people the impression that you are not well-educated, well-read, or well-spoken as you could be."

http://langblog.englishplus.com/?p=1099

Edit:  Sorry BigBob, I didn't mean to step on your post referencing the langblog.  I was typing my post at the same time.
 
 

 
 


Edited by masonic.truths - May/05/2012 at 3:08pm
Back to Top
BigBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/10/2011
Location: Jacksonville
Status: Offline
Points: 930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 2:47pm
http://langblog.englishplus.com/?p=1099

http://i.word.com/idictionary/Unappropriate
Ribualt Lodge 272 - SW
Jacksonville 12 R.A.M. - King
Hallmark 2 R.S.M.
I-09.21.10
P-11.18.10
R-02.15.11
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6945
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 1:16pm
No   ....

" .... Un`ap`pro´pri`ate
a.1.Inappropriate; unsuitable.

2.Not appropriated.
v. t.1.To take from private possession; to restore to the possession or right of all; as, to unappropriate a monopoly.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co."
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
masonic.truths View Drop Down
Muzzled
Muzzled
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2012 at 8:50am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


...
The term 'ghetto slang' is appropriate when referring to generally un-appropriate form/style of speech.
...

We also trust you meant "inappropriate"   


I meant what was stated .... appropriate!  ... my rhetoric is correct.

 
Is un-appropriate slang for inappropriate?Wink
Back to Top
tm274 View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
The True Time Traveling WM .·.

Joined: March/31/2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5686
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tm274 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 10:18pm
 
      dyslexics of the World...............UNTIE!!!!!
Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed   : 25th June 2002
Raised    : 24th Sept 2002

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel.
Back to Top
daves View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: January/21/2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3811
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 9:07pm
Wow!! On Tuesday I was talking to a senior Grand Lodge officer who admitted to me that he was dyslexic. My opinion of him has risen right up since then - imagine the effort required to learn ritual to a high level and write and receive reports.
The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20)
18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5)
The Carrington Lodge



Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6945
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


...
The term 'ghetto slang' is appropriate when referring to generally un-appropriate form/style of speech.
...

We also trust you meant "inappropriate"   


I meant what was stated .... appropriate!  ... my rhetoric is correct.

Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


...
However, my reply was about the question of 'Penmanship & Spelling', if one can not speak English correctly he can not write it correctly either.
...

While I agree that the practice of the proper form in the written word tends to reinforce the spoken, I ultimately disagree with this point, as I have met people who were functionally illiterate and had competent command of the Queen's English.

(like right now, haven't a clue what I just wrote, it just looked pretty when I typed it out... )


As I said  "not always"   ... I am fully aware some educated people will speak 'slang' to fit in with a group.  However, these educated persons do know when it is appropriate and when it is not.    ...

But my statement was that proper speech reinforces proper written sentences.  The opposite of what you just wrote.   ...However, your comment also seems to allude to a person that speaks correctly but can not write.   I don't think a person can be educated in correct speech and not be able to write unless he is blind.   ...

Anyway, one can not be a Mason (in my GL) and not be able to write.  If a Candidate was found to be unable to write after he was initiated, he must learn to write before he can advance.


Edited by edwmax - May/04/2012 at 8:51pm
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6945
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

I find that the art of being succinct even while excersicing the abilities to pontificate are not unlike the challenges of mental dexterity required to produce readable and comprehensible output in a manner that is palatable to one's audience...


.... precisely ....
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
NobleShabba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March/11/2012
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


...
The term 'ghetto slang' is appropriate when referring to generally un-appropriate form/style of speech.
...

We also trust you meant "inappropriate"

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


...
However, my reply was about the question of 'Penmanship & Spelling', if one can not speak English correctly he can not write it correctly either.
...

While I agree that the practice of the proper form in the written word tends to reinforce the spoken, I ultimately disagree with this point, as I have met people who were functionally illiterate and had competent command of the Queen's English.

(like right now, haven't a clue what I just wrote, it just looked pretty when I typed it out... )
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
Back to Top
BigBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/10/2011
Location: Jacksonville
Status: Offline
Points: 930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 7:16pm
Look Ed, I'm not going to argue with you. I said I'm sure that's not what you meant. If you think that's uncalled for, then fine. I'm sorry my comment made you think otherwise.

Ribualt Lodge 272 - SW
Jacksonville 12 R.A.M. - King
Hallmark 2 R.S.M.
I-09.21.10
P-11.18.10
R-02.15.11
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6945
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by BigBob BigBob wrote:

Is "ghetto slang" even an appropriate term to use? I'm sure you're not using it in an inflamitory manner, but that term comes with certain connotations. It's sort of like telling someone not to speak "hillbilly" or something along those lines.

As far as what we write, who judges was is appropriate and how strict are we supposed to be. Should we have done sort of template we need to follow for writing posts? Are we going to start calling each other out for the improper use of punctuation marks? Maybe we should start using MLA, APA, or Chicago style?

When I was in grade school, having the words: "but", "and", and "or" at the begging of a sentence was really frowned upon. BUT . . . in college and in the course of conversation it's totally acceptable.




Then I suggest you reread to original post of this thread.   ... Slang in one area of the country or community may not be understood else where. 

The term 'ghetto slang' is appropriate when referring to generally un-appropriate form/style of speech.   ... thus the reference for proper "Grammer & Rhetoric" to be used on the forum.     Your attempt to make my use of the term as being 'inflamitory' was un-called for.

Slang speech, ghetto slang, or what ever you might want to call it to be 'politically correct' is usually (not always) indicative of an 'un-educated' person.

However, my reply was about the question of 'Penmanship & Spelling', if one can not speak English correctly he can not write it correctly either.   ... The original post to this thread covers this.


Edited by edwmax - May/04/2012 at 12:44pm
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
masonic.truths View Drop Down
Muzzled
Muzzled
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2012 at 10:46am
Originally posted by NobleShabba NobleShabba wrote:

Ok, time to swat the hornets nest...

Did we ever consider that the written word was so expensive during the formation of Masonry, that many of those brothers probably were unable to read and write?

Mouth to Ear? Maybe that's why we have "Grammar & Rhetoric" instead of "Penmanship & Spelling"...
 
I don't think the Seven Liberal Arts and Sciences include "Penmanship & Spelling".
Back to Top
tm274 View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
The True Time Traveling WM .·.

Joined: March/31/2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5686
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tm274 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2012 at 3:30am
Originally posted by daves daves wrote:

Couldn't have put it better ...
 
 
 
 
Couldn't have put it better ... muhself. Tongue
Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed   : 25th June 2002
Raised    : 24th Sept 2002

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel.
Back to Top
daves View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: January/21/2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3811
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2012 at 11:01pm
Couldn't have put it better ...
The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20)
18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5)
The Carrington Lodge



Back to Top
NobleShabba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March/11/2012
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2012 at 9:36pm
I find that the art of being succinct even while excersicing the abilities to pontificate are not unlike the challenges of mental dexterity required to produce readable and comprehensible output in a manner that is palatable to one's audience...
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
Back to Top
BigBob View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: May/10/2011
Location: Jacksonville
Status: Offline
Points: 930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2012 at 9:36pm
Is "ghetto slang" even an appropriate term to use? I'm sure you're not using it in an inflamitory manner, but that term comes with certain connotations. It's sort of like telling someone not to speak "hillbilly" or something along those lines.

As far as what we write, who judges was is appropriate and how strict are we supposed to be. Should we have done sort of template we need to follow for writing posts? Are we going to start calling each other out for the improper use of punctuation marks? Maybe we should start using MLA, APA, or Chicago style?

When I was in grade school, having the words: "but", "and", and "or" at the begging of a sentence was really frowned upon. BUT . . . in college and in the course of conversation it's totally acceptable.

Ribualt Lodge 272 - SW
Jacksonville 12 R.A.M. - King
Hallmark 2 R.S.M.
I-09.21.10
P-11.18.10
R-02.15.11
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6945
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2012 at 2:23pm
That is to why the 'mouth to ear'   ... to teach proper English usage in speech   vs  .... ghetto slang  ... one can't write it if he can not speak the 'grammer & rhetoric' correctly.

Further, in the operative days of Masonry, the guild was the only schooling (education) a man would have the opportunity to receive.   ... 


Further still, in many areas of the country it was the Freemasons or local Lodge that started schools to teach their children and the children of their neighbors.  Many of these became today's public schools.   It was Ben Franklin that first advocated for public schools in the new United States.   ....

So I think "Penmanship & Spelling' is well covered.   However, there tends to be some that joins the forum that thinks everyone understands his 'ghetto slang'.
"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."





Thomasville 369
Back to Top
NobleShabba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March/11/2012
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobleShabba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2012 at 12:51pm
Ok, time to swat the hornets nest...

Did we ever consider that the written word was so expensive during the formation of Masonry, that many of those brothers probably were unable to read and write?

Mouth to Ear? Maybe that's why we have "Grammar & Rhetoric" instead of "Penmanship & Spelling"...
----------------------

DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong!
Back to Top
daves View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: January/21/2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3811
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2011 at 5:46pm
Don't get me started on text-speak. If someone sends me an SMS in this dreadful shorthand, I request they send it again in English. If they complain, then I tell them that their message can't have been that important in the first place.
The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20)
18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5)
The Carrington Lodge



Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.