Grammar and Rhetoric |
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ernon
Quarryman Joined: December/27/2010 Location: Grants Pass, OR Status: Offline Points: 136 |
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I have to laugh when I think back to the 1970's, working for HFC. They made us learn their "code" to write our notes on the account cards so the customers could not read what we were writing. That code was almost identical to the texting shorthand of today. |
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Scott
Grants Pass Lodge #84 A.F.&A.M. Medford Lodge #103 A.F.&A.M. 32° A.A.S.R. Valley of Medford Quatuor Coronati Correspondence Circle |
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N4GYN-Ray
Newbie Joined: September/04/2011 Location: Buford, GA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Thank you Brother Jay. What a nice welcome. I have written a kind of Bio as you suggested for all to see. I look forward to learning more about Free Masonry and becoming a better Master Mason as God gives me the opportunity. Very Best Wishes, Brother! I encourage you to get back into Ham Radio. It's the greatest hobby in the world. And you meet a lot of really great people (like yourself).
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Ray Bailey - N4GYN
Buford F&AM Lodge #292 Buford, GA |
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jaya
Moderator Joined: November/16/2010 Location: Western NC Status: Offline Points: 2628 |
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Brother Ray, welcome to the forums. How about an introduction post in the http://forum.mastermason.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=4&title=introduce-and-accommodate-visiting-brethren section. I am also a ham as well, KE4RHN. I do very little with it anymore though.
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Jay Austin
Black Mountain 663 - Junior Warden AASR Valley of Asheville - KSA The Masonic Society http://westernncmason.blogspot.com |
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N4GYN-Ray
Newbie Joined: September/04/2011 Location: Buford, GA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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This is so important, since accurate communication can sometimes mean the difference between life and death. All of us must endeavor to learn to communicate in such a way that the reader/listener will understand easily what was said/written. Thank you for making us all aware of this.
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Ray Bailey - N4GYN
Buford F&AM Lodge #292 Buford, GA |
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eagreen
Newbie Joined: September/03/2011 Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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I put the blame on society we allowed these things to happen. We as the people have lost ourselves. What happen to the Martins and Malcomes of these world. What happen to each on teach one, It takes a nation to raise a child. We as the people have become so dependent on "It's not my problem". What we forgot is in the long run as we now are beginning it is our problem.
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BroPowellsLight
Newbie Joined: March/04/2011 Location: Hinesville, GA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Well said. I know that there are times that I have a hard time understanding.
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Mt. Olive Lodge #434
EA: 5/08 FC: 6/08 MM: 7/08 |
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anonymoussupporter
Newbie Joined: July/21/2011 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Could not agree more, although I'd like to add that proper etiquette is praised everywhere.
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drew
Senior Member Joined: April/11/2011 Location: Halifax Nova Sc Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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I'm a courier driver, and my route is in and around a large University.
I've many times, had customers chuckle at, and then berate themselves because when I ask them to sign, the say that they cannot cursive write, and just print their name. Worse, is when I need a cheque for a delivery, and I get handed a blank cheque,w ith the customer asking me to fill it out, as they do not know how!!! Sign of the times I suppose though. I imagine that the general population can type much better than they could less than a generation ago. I guess we have to substitute one form for another. For the record, I try to write and send at least one hand written letter per month to carious friends; just to say that I do!!! |
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...when the guns are the fenceposts; the cars are the doghouse; and the telephone no longer rings.
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GaryE
Quarryman Joined: December/17/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Very sad indeed.
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Noblewiebe
Quarryman Joined: March/08/2009 Location: Ontario Status: Offline Points: 593 |
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They don't even know how to apply their signature to a document. Very sad.
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Master Alma #72 1985
A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child. www.beashrinernow.com |
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GaryE
Quarryman Joined: December/17/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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I try to be as clear and concise as possible. I may be getting older, but I find myself more and more annoyed at the increased use slang, all capital letters, etc,. by people. Slang terms get used so often that it actually makes it's way into the dictionary as a legitimate word!
My thirteen year old son just informed me that they don't even teach cursive hand writing in a lot of the schools here because nobody hand writes letters much anymore.
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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If ya gonna mess with da language, this gotta be da safest place ta do it!
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dgresh
Moderator Joined: November/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 382 |
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Coach,
I got a chuckle out of your reply. --- dgresh
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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You can use it to perfect your skills;
or u cn use it 2 prfct ur skls;
it all depends upon your intention(s).
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JLHSMITH
Quarryman Joined: July/14/2009 Location: Little Rock, AR Status: Offline Points: 860 |
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I guess it's not that serious to me on an online forum. To each there own I guess.
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Unity Lodge #454
W.P.Brown Chapter #142 HRAM E. J. Jackson #8 KT Mohammed Temple #34 AEAONMS J.L.H.Smith Consistory #76 USC SJ PHA MWPHGLARK |
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maboot38
Quarryman Joined: August/11/2010 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 428 |
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Disagree. The moderators of the forum expect it, as spelled out in the original post, and I as a Mason am expected to devote to study of the seven liberal arts and sciences. We do not discard those for convenience. We are Masons. We make the extra effort. Remember, YOU are someone's impression of Freemasonry. When you post "U R Joking, rite?", sure I understand you, but I am also less than impressed.
Certainly I understand your point, but on this we do disagree brother. As Masons we must always put our best foot forward as we are all representatives of this organization.
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Caution1010
Moderator Bro. Never Give Up Joined: November/16/2010 Location: 127.0.0.1 Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
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Communication involves one person transmitting information understood by the receiving party as the sender intended it.
I understand the need to avoid slang and what not so brothers can understand, no matter their demographic. But I'd say this. Sometimes I'm typing from my phone and I expect a brother to understand when I say a phrase such as "U r jokin rite?"...not grammatically correct, yes. But of course brothers understand what the intended message was and that was delivered clearly. I don't see the need for nitpickiness (if that is a word, though I don't think it is since there's a red wavy line under the word as I type) As much as technology has changed, can't blame it all on the younger text generation. They too have to go to school and write papers and communicate with other people other than their peers in an intelligible manner. Though textspeak is crazy and takes time to understand, I'm not hammering it on the new generation. Hardly.
Edited by Caution1010 - May/12/2011 at 2:26pm |
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I: 10/1/10
P: 12/3/10 R: 12/31/10 PHA-AL "You can't trust those fellow-crafts...buncha rogues and murderers!" |
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maboot38
Quarryman Joined: August/11/2010 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 428 |
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That doesn't excuse it. I believe I write just fine no matter the media type. As a result, I'm almost always clearly understood. If I'm not, it isn't because of my spelling and grammar. |
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Tar Heel 357
Senior Member Joined: June/20/2010 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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I believe the reason for the marked decrease in the written communication skills of our high school graduates is email, internet chatting, and blog sites. One could also add that many businesses frequently use power point slides which use a bulletized format. Yes, you are correct, I am writing this message onto an online forum.
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Silver Square Lodge #791, MWPHGLNC
Edwards Evans Consistory #196, PHA Kindah Temple #62, AEAONMS Cumberland Chapter #70, HRAM Bayard-Titus-Johnson Council #2, R&SM Pilgrim Rest Commandery #11 |
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ClanLabCooker
Newbie Joined: April/17/2011 Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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Several have commented on the poor, and continually decreasing, ability of recent high school graduates to communicate effectively, especially using the written language. In the long run we only have ourselves to blame. We have embraced modern, forward looking programs such as No Child Left Behind, mainstreaming, and a host of others. This has been at the expense of "old, worn out, antiquated" programs that effectively taught the fundamentals of phonetics, grammer and basic effective communication skills.
I am NOT opposed to modern techniques and technology, when it is an improvement! However, change for the sake of change all too often is a step in the wrong direction. Sorry, I will step off my soapbox now. I realize I have quite probably offended a number of readers, and for that, I apologize. However, I will not apologize for my opinion, it is my own. You do not have to agree with me. As Brothers, we should be able to voice our own opinions, and listen with respect to those agreeing, and disagreeing, with us.
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EJW
Groupie Joined: March/29/2011 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 45 |
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I apologise if I do this in any of my posts in advance. I've become rather used to adding in 'text' language into my lecture note taking and sometimes it slips over into my forum posts.
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Lodge Tongariro No.705 (EC)
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drew
Senior Member Joined: April/11/2011 Location: Halifax Nova Sc Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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I must say that I am pleased that this board had these guidelines.
Text style lingo is alright on some message boards; but not needed here. Spelling, I think, is very important in all prose. Nothing is worse than seeing a grown man who does not know when to use the words there/their appropriately; or does not know how to use the word you're at all. Nothing is worse though, than people who spell no when they want to say know. Thank you for keeping this board up to intelligent standards.
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...when the guns are the fenceposts; the cars are the doghouse; and the telephone no longer rings.
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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Most members are careful, but there are still a few offenders that use texting style, slang, and excessive abbreviations. |
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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I've noticed a great improvement in the "diction" used by members, of late and haven't really seen anything that warrants a re-issue.
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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maboot38
Quarryman Joined: August/11/2010 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 428 |
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Absolutely!!!
I think every Mason should remember the following phrase whether in public or posting on an internet site....
"YOU are SOMEBODY'S impression of Freemasonry"
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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I believe that this should be emphasized again. |
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triplej220
Quarryman Joined: April/18/2010 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Apparently LeinY didn't read the posts regarding using proper grammar let alone the forum guidelines.....
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GEORGE W.PRIOLEAU #13 MWPHGLAZ
Initiated - 25 May 2001 Passed - 22 June 2001 Raised - 20 July 2001 Y.B.Y.S.A.I.A. |
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triplej220
Quarryman Joined: April/18/2010 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Its definitely a good tool when you have to write business letters and memo's for your College English Class while deployed.....I was able to keep the books back at home in the states last deployment because of it.
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GEORGE W.PRIOLEAU #13 MWPHGLAZ
Initiated - 25 May 2001 Passed - 22 June 2001 Raised - 20 July 2001 Y.B.Y.S.A.I.A. |
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Tar Heel 357
Senior Member Joined: June/20/2010 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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AR 25-50 is not meant to be a quick read. It's purpose is to be a reference guide for the preparation of various Army correspondence and documents. But, one can certainly read it in its entirety if you want to do so.
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Silver Square Lodge #791, MWPHGLNC
Edwards Evans Consistory #196, PHA Kindah Temple #62, AEAONMS Cumberland Chapter #70, HRAM Bayard-Titus-Johnson Council #2, R&SM Pilgrim Rest Commandery #11 |
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GaryE
Quarryman Joined: December/17/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Hardly. But then, just about any document put out by the government is neither a quick or easy read.
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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Stuntman98
Quarryman Joined: August/25/2009 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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correct, it mirrors the APA (American Psychological Association) a bit so i believe its a good tool to used when writing anything that can be viewed by the public if it is supposed to present a positive view.
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S.S. Sons of Light No.77
P.M. Pride of The Walton No.110 MWPHGL Washington District No.9 SPAIN MILITARY CONSISTORY #99 AASR,PHA |
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Tar Heel 357
Senior Member Joined: June/20/2010 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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I believe it is the Army regulation that governs writing style, the preparation of various military documents, i.e., letters, memoranda, decision documents, etc.
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Silver Square Lodge #791, MWPHGLNC
Edwards Evans Consistory #196, PHA Kindah Temple #62, AEAONMS Cumberland Chapter #70, HRAM Bayard-Titus-Johnson Council #2, R&SM Pilgrim Rest Commandery #11 |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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All right... I'll bite.
What's AR 25-50?
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Stuntman98
Quarryman Joined: August/25/2009 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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AR 25-50
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S.S. Sons of Light No.77
P.M. Pride of The Walton No.110 MWPHGL Washington District No.9 SPAIN MILITARY CONSISTORY #99 AASR,PHA |
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coach
Moderator Joined: October/23/2005 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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The same thing that is going on with far to many Lodges. All that is required it showing up and doing the bare minimum to warrant progression.
These types of rules and their enforcement give us exactly what we have. Instead of plenty and abundance, we have scarcity and are left wanting.
Because they currently have nothing stopping them due to their lacking.
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sapperguy
Newbie Joined: November/21/2010 Location: schweinfurt, ge Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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First, I must apologize in advance as I am a member of a motorcycle forum where we use slang and text type writing in our posts. I will do the best I can in responding to keep that out of here. Here's what really disturbs me. I am a Staff Sergeant in the Army and am a platoon sergeant. I have both squad and team leaders who work for me that are all graduates of high school and some even college, who can't write the simplest things in a formal manner. Something as simple as a monthly review of a Soldier, is spelled incorrectly, grammatically incorrect, and almost impossible to read and/or follow. What is going on with our education system today? I think it's pretty bad when I, a product of the Kentucky education system, have to correct almost all of the writing that the leaders in my unit produce. In my eyes, that is pretty rediculous and dissapoints me greatly. I admit I am not the best writer in the world, but I do take pride in what I do and try to work with them to improve their writing skills, but I figure if a stupid redneck can do it, why can't they? |
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Tar Heel 357
Senior Member Joined: June/20/2010 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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Thanks for the reminder Palmetto Bug. All of us need to be reminded of writing properly from time to time. This is true in life, not just Freemasonry.
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Silver Square Lodge #791, MWPHGLNC
Edwards Evans Consistory #196, PHA Kindah Temple #62, AEAONMS Cumberland Chapter #70, HRAM Bayard-Titus-Johnson Council #2, R&SM Pilgrim Rest Commandery #11 |
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maboot38
Quarryman Joined: August/11/2010 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 428 |
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I'm a moderator on another Masonic site and I recently had someone post on the forum in a block of text that had absolutley no punctuation, and the first letter of every word was capitalized.
I had no choice but to call him out on it, as he said he believed himself to be a wise man and also cited Mark Twain as one of his most admired authors. We pulled out the grammar and rhetoric argument and I asked him if the thought Samuel Clemens would be entertained by his writing style.
His format changed immediately. Edited by maboot38 - November/15/2010 at 1:55pm |
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Stuntman98
Quarryman Joined: August/25/2009 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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Sometimes i will spell in a manner that is readable to a TRUE MM, will that not fly? |
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S.S. Sons of Light No.77
P.M. Pride of The Walton No.110 MWPHGL Washington District No.9 SPAIN MILITARY CONSISTORY #99 AASR,PHA |
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bmr33775
Newbie Joined: May/01/2010 Location: Norfolk, Va Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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Well put. You know shows me yet another reason I love the Craft. On the outside, someone may have been offended by this, but when you put a bunch of brothers together and one of us is trying to keep things square, everyone agrees. And I agree, it may take a little longer to type it out, however, most of these posts are accessed by google and there are already millions out there that HATE Mason's for no reason at all, why give them something else to look down on. |
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BRO. Burnell Reliford
ST. John Lodge #35 Rota, Spain |
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MasterHangman33
Quarryman Joined: March/02/2008 Location: On the Level Status: Offline Points: 323 |
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Agreed. Once, my nephew sent me a text in what looked like ebonics. I had to sit down and talk with Him, lol. I tend to capitalize certain words that mean more to me individually, like Family and Brother, You and Ours, which tends to rub some People the wrong way. I do not mean anything by it, it is just a habit. I am very altruistic in context to others.
i have been aspiring to speak with brevity, condensing sentences down to maximize benefit of resonance in shared communication, kind of like an everything said in 5 or less words kind of thing. Edited by MasterHangman33 - March/21/2010 at 6:02pm |
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Worshipful Master
Trenton/Wyandotte #8 PHP Trenton Chapter #173 Union Council #11 Valley of Detroit A.A.S.R |
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YoungBlood
Quarryman Joined: February/04/2010 Location: Kentucky Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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As they say in German, "danke." |
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I - Oct 17, 2009
P - Jan 16, 2010 R - March 6, 2010 Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret - Nov 13, 2010 Sir Knight - Feb 26, 201 |
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cemab4y
Quarryman Joined: October/31/2007 Location: Fairfax VA Status: Offline Points: 1267 |
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Check out http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-russian . I have never used their program, but they have a good reputation. You should also look on meetup and see if there is a Russian study group or club in your town. |
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Charles E. Martin
Alexandria, VA Bowling Green Lodge 73, Bowling Green KY (GL of KY, F&AM) Alexandria VA Scottish Rite Bodies (AASR, Southern Jurisdiction, USA) |
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daves
Administrator Joined: January/21/2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3811 |
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I was taught French and German at school. What is amazing is how the language comes back to you after years and years when you are put in the situation of having to speak it. I had to work for a short while near Dusseldorf in NW Germany. My colleagues all laughed at my German because they said I sounded like a very formal Berliner. I got the last laugh - we had to go to Graz in Austria to meet with some other German speakers. The Dusseldorfers and the Austrians couldn't understand each other because their dialects were so strong. But I could understand both sides and finished up trying to translate. In the end we settled on English.
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The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20) 18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5) The Carrington Lodge |
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YoungBlood
Quarryman Joined: February/04/2010 Location: Kentucky Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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Hey, sometimes that's all it takes. Enough to get by to save your life - literally. What would I be looking at cost wise? And is it very effective? I'm what you could call "stubborn" with foreign languages, my mother always said I was thick headed... |
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I - Oct 17, 2009
P - Jan 16, 2010 R - March 6, 2010 Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret - Nov 13, 2010 Sir Knight - Feb 26, 201 |
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cemab4y
Quarryman Joined: October/31/2007 Location: Fairfax VA Status: Offline Points: 1267 |
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The Air Force taught me Russian. I later married a Russian. I am not fluent, but I can get by. One benefit of having a Russian wife, is that she can give me a cussing in her language, I don't understand all the words. She feels better, and I am not offended!
If you wish to learn Russian, Try Rosetta Stone. I belong to a Russian Study group, I connected with on Meetup.com . When I am home, we meet at a coffee shop, and practice Russian. I also converse with Russians on ham radio sometimes.
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Charles E. Martin
Alexandria, VA Bowling Green Lodge 73, Bowling Green KY (GL of KY, F&AM) Alexandria VA Scottish Rite Bodies (AASR, Southern Jurisdiction, USA) |
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YoungBlood
Quarryman Joined: February/04/2010 Location: Kentucky Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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Cursive writing was one of those things that we were taught in fourth or fifth grade and then never used it again, unless signing our names. If they didn't stress writing in cursive after that, then I never understood why it was even taught in the first place. |
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I - Oct 17, 2009
P - Jan 16, 2010 R - March 6, 2010 Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret - Nov 13, 2010 Sir Knight - Feb 26, 201 |
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cemab4y
Quarryman Joined: October/31/2007 Location: Fairfax VA Status: Offline Points: 1267 |
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Interesting topic. I saw a report on TV, stating that handwriting, especially cursive/script will disappear in a generation. Myself, I cherish the written word, notwithstanding the fact, that my one handwriting is atrocious (my wife calls my handwriting "feet-writing"). I have no problem with text shorthand, in moderation. (I'm L8 for a meeting. C U 2morrow), in a text message. I am appalled to see this communication creeping into emails and memoranda. Languages are one of my hobbies. (I speak Russian at home with my wife). English is one of the most difficult languages, to spell. In written documents, prior to the late 18th century, you would often see the same word spelled differently, on the same page! Noah Webster, was one of the first to push for standardized spelling of English. Sadly, young people today are losing the ability to spell English words properly.
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Charles E. Martin
Alexandria, VA Bowling Green Lodge 73, Bowling Green KY (GL of KY, F&AM) Alexandria VA Scottish Rite Bodies (AASR, Southern Jurisdiction, USA) |
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jimzdat
Quarryman Joined: June/29/2008 Location: Belpre, OH Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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One of the automotive forums I am a member of has had a similar problem. As such, they have implemented a number of rules for the forum, that all members are REQUIRED to accept before they can post. I have copied these rules below - keep in mind some of the rules are auto-related, but some of these may be applied to just about any forum.
Might be worth amending the mastermason.com forum "rules of etiquette"
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