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Ever heard of these organizations?

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Flotown79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 1:10pm
He has not been in Masonry for 50 years.  Believing something and facts are two totally different things.  Of course they have no problem with a recognition agreement, that will give them credibility.  I have no personal issue with them.  Many are good people and would not hurt a fly.  However that does not change the fact that they are not Masons.  I can put on a Delta Sigma Theta shirt on and do good things, but I am still not a Delta.  This council that they reference is bogus!!! 




Edited by Flotown79 - October/22/2009 at 1:27pm

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He is 81 years old and that's what he says.  What people choose to believe is their God given right.  Like I said before, I chose my own path because of what I came to believe.  I take with me the knowledge of masonry I gained from my experience and the ability to go forward in my masonic journey with MWPHGL of Illinois, Alpha & Omega #121 and the consistory of which my father is already a GIG, and go on my merry way.  I can't change someone's mind, even with facts, something of which they have their own deep personal convictions about.  They are still good men even if we don't agree, and some of them I consider my family still, even if we don't masonically communicate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by scotrite357 scotrite357 wrote:

He is 81 years old and that's what he says.  What people choose to believe is their God given right.  Like I said before, I chose my own path because of what I came to believe.  I take with me the knowledge of masonry I gained from my experience and the ability to go forward in my masonic journey with MWPHGL of Illinois, Alpha & Omega #121 and the consistory of which my father is already a GIG, and go on my merry way.  I can't change someone's mind, even with facts, something of which they have their own deep personal convictions about.  They are still good men even if we don't agree, and some of them I consider my family still, even if we don't masonically communicate.


You are correct, he is free to chose to believe what ever he chooses.  No argument from me on that.  But again believing and facts are two totally different things.  There was a time in my child hood that I thought I could fly.  After a trip to the emergency room, the truth set in.

As I have said many times before and I will say again, I have no problem speaking to, helping, lending a hand to members of these totally bogus, fake, spam, clandestine (or what every you choose to call them) bodies. 

I do not recruit or attempt to sway.  I simply place the facts out there.  If a persons pride is in the way from them seeing the truth then there is not much that can be done.  I think that people like you should sue these bodies.  You have the law on your side because the courts have already declared them to be fakes.  Take them to small claims and the the jurisdictional limit. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotrite357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 2:26pm
I definitely respect your opinion, but some of those brothers are family still to me and I've been paid with education and experience.  I believe that good brothers doing right will attract those who seek the same.  I'd rather lead by action than to force my opinion by voice.  Those that don't want to walk in my direction are free to go in their's without any ill fated felings from me.  Now, I will take a staunch action against those who would choose to force their will or opinion on me about what I'm doing and I know them to be wrong.  In those cases, I might have to do whatever I might have to. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smilin assassin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 2:31pm
scotrite357, sorry if i am a bit confused...if your father was in a legit IL PHA lodge in the first place, why wouldn't you join the lodge he was a part of when you started your journey??
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I was young and rebellious looking for my own identity.  Basically, didn't know any better.  Fell out of communication and all that good stuff. Things young men who think they know better do until they really do know better.  All life experience is an education if you pay attention and learn from what T.G.A.O.T.U. is showing you, I've found my path.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by scotrite357 scotrite357 wrote:

I definitely respect your opinion, but some of those brothers are family still to me and I've been paid with education and experience.  I believe that good brothers doing right will attract those who seek the same.  I'd rather lead by action than to force my opinion by voice.  Those that don't want to walk in my direction are free to go in their's without any ill fated felings from me.  Now, I will take a staunch action against those who would choose to force their will or opinion on me about what I'm doing and I know them to be wrong.  In those cases, I might have to do whatever I might have to. 


You don't have to stop being friends or family with them.  I never said that.  One of the people I know I depend on is a member of IF&AM.  That has nothing to do with human friendship.  Of course you should show on ill feeling towards them, it is their choice just as it was yours. 

Please show where someone has forced their will or opinion on you within this forum.  I would like to see it. 

Again members of bogus/clandestine groups are not Masons.  Good men, they might be, Masons they are not. 


Edited by Flotown79 - October/22/2009 at 2:50pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotrite357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 2:53pm

I must say, I can't wait until I'm eligible to speak in the tyled forum.  I enjoy talking masonry, everyday.  And if just talking jurisdiction and masonically legal issues spurn this much conversation, it has got to be better in the tyled forum.  There are some good masonic minds on this website. 

The only volitale voices on here seem to be those don't understand or accept masonic law.  I have enjoyed all the upright brothers opinions here and I appreciate everyones position. 


Edited by scotrite357 - October/22/2009 at 3:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 3:36pm
I love the light being shed in this forum :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 3:38pm
I've done alot of SR research in my time, and have found alot of orgs try to use the SR to gain regularity, but when the Council is clandestine, it makes their affiliation to the blue lodge even more bogus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 3:56pm
Dont you guys find it interesting that at the same time John Jones was Imperial Potentate in Oct 1895, he was having problems with a Temple in Wash, D.C. (Mecca) of which RH Gleaves was a member among others, then after his pissed then off , the LT Commander (Jones) was made Chancellor and started his own SC afterwards, causing his SR suspension? I guess what I get from alot of these orgs are that clearly ego, money, and pride will take a man from the greatness he once possesed to a scoundrel/peddler of degrees. It can cause a man to violate his obligations, his most important ones being to God or his Supreme Being. I just hate to see the split amongst us as a whole. Could you imagine if egos were subdued in the past ; the possible membership rolls that PHA GLs or even NGL (had it stayed intact totally) would have? We can only educate the masses, let a man choose his path, and hope that their heart/motives are pure- at the very least decent towards others in general and the craft. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 7:05pm
i can understand totally the point being made on ignorance being bliss but i wanted to bring up one thing that a good hearted and well-meaning man said to me once to make me think.


if you were drowning or in a horrific accident and gave the SOD, and a Mason responded with help
would you refuse that help if he was a clandie


i know it is extreme and who is really going to ask for a dues card when their life is flashing before their eyes but what would be the honest answer other than it depends?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:


Originally posted by scotrite357 scotrite357 wrote:

wow. I'm trying to figure out why these men thought they could just do this.  I mean, what documents or evidence did they produce to support their reasoning.  If any person can just start an organization to start another and another, how does any of them know that the first attempting to organize was even of sound mind and not some old men in dotage, or some person with a "master plan" for their own gain or purpose? Do they just say, "I don't like what you'll are doing" or they couldn't gain admission in the first place and file papers to get a tax i.d. #?
I would like to see this American issued charter that is so often referenced by these bodies.  Even a photo of it will be fine.  I put that request out in 2002.  I am still waiting.


i will have to scan the one that is in the constitution that i have
it has a bunch of seals and the signature of the same dudes listed on the historical sketch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by iluminado iluminado wrote:

i can understand totally the point being made on ignorance being bliss but i wanted to bring up one thing that a good hearted and well-meaning man said to me once to make me think.


if you were drowning or in a horrific accident and gave the SOD, and a Mason responded with help
would you refuse that help if he was a clandie


i know it is extreme and who is really going to ask for a dues card when their life is flashing before their eyes but what would be the honest answer other than it depends?






Again what does helping someone have to do with a man being a MM?  This nonsense that we (Masons) would not help a clandestine person is the nonsense that they thrive on.  I have been helped before by a member of the GL of AL.  Did he have to?  No.  He chose to.  What is often forgotten that even MM's have the option of helping MM's.  The is no Masonic police force. 

It will not work here, and it does not work on me.


Edited by Flotown79 - October/23/2009 at 8:43am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tm274 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by iluminado iluminado wrote:

if you were drowning or in a horrific accident and gave the SOD, and a Mason responded with help
would you refuse that help if he was a clandie 
 
A good man would help anyone in distress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/22/2009 at 10:58pm
Flo. I think you missed the point of my question. The scenario was based on someone seeking Masonic help when for all intent and purposes and based on the preceding posts, they are not a mason
I made no mention of a Masonic police force or any of the other items you raised.   Like you said they may be good men but they are not masons. Therefore, they should not be eligible to benefit from masonic privileges, no?
Frankly there are better things to discuss so I will depart
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Bro. JLHSmith, I think egos play the part the most.  With most masonic knowledge being handed down mouth to ear, some things are left out either purposely or accidently for the sake of the person or person's trying to create their own legacy.  The same lesson is learned when brothers form a circle of trust and whisper something to a brother, by the time it circles through everybody back the the starting point, the word more than likely has changed.  That's what I humbly think happened with this scottish rite creating blue lodges situation.  I think at one point the information was told and trusted by another to be true and it got handed down.  Not every mason or man is, not to put anybody down, a totally independent thinker.   Now, I was taught not to just trust everything someone says, research it with another independent source.  The brother that did a lot of my teaching did not mind me ever coming back and questioning material I learned.  But, he is a rare one.  A lot of other's can't stand being told they are wrong, those are the ones that live in a box and never open their minds to become better men or make better decisions.  Masonry is about being free thinking men, taking life experience and putting it into your mental masonic reference catalog that is in your heart and mind, and continue to search for your own truth. Unfortunatly, the masonic laws regarding how a lodge can legally form according to the u.g.l.e. is one that was not clearly handed down and I researched it for myself.  That's what led me to my decision to leave.  My father happened to be my other reference and he schooled me on where and what to look for, and I talk and thank him every day.  I've seen a lot of men in organizations where they are taken for their money and taught nothing.  Fortunately, I was given a lot of knowledge and paid mostly with my time, not money for it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 32PRINCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2009 at 7:42am
PrettyBoi, tell him to come to Conyers Ga with that same Bull$#^& I will give him all the Light he wants, when I Light his a$$ UP.
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HA! I heard that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2009 at 8:55am
Originally posted by iluminado iluminado wrote:

Flo. I think you missed the point of my question. The scenario was based on someone seeking Masonic help when for all intent and purposes and based on the preceding posts, they are not a mason
I made no mention of a Masonic police force or any of the other items you raised.   Like you said they may be good men but they are not masons. Therefore, they should not be eligible to benefit from masonic privileges, no?
Frankly there are better things to discuss so I will depart


I got your point.  The issue I have is often members of these groups use the 'can't we all get alone' line or the 'would you help me if I'm clandestine' line.  It's getting old.  Again helping someone has nothing to do with me being a MM.  I have helped people before I was one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2009 at 9:05am
Originally posted by scotrite357 scotrite357 wrote:

Unfortunatly, the masonic laws regarding how a lodge can legally form according to the u.g.l.e. is one that was not clearly handed down and I researched it for myself.  That's what led me to my decision to leave.  


This is not totally correct.  These bogus bodies will not recognize me if I decided tomorrow I wanted to be the New IF&AM of Alabama.  They will say I have to go through them.  They know the rules and choose to ignore them.  Mr. Jones, Banks, and others were at one time members of regular GL's.  They knew the rules, they decided to break them.  If rules don't matter why reference an American issued charter that supposedly give all rights like those from England, Ireland, or Scotland?

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This is not totally correct.  These bogus bodies will not recognize me if I decided tomorrow I wanted to be the New IF&AM of Alabama.  They will say I have to go through them.  They know the rules and choose to ignore them.-flotown79 
 
I gave my speculative opinion about how the rules regarding forming lodges and receiving charters has been altered or like you say, maybe even ignored, handing it down down from mouth to ear without the recipient verifying and developing their own understanding of what the truth to them appears to be.  As to who will choose to recognize your prior masonic credibilities, I thought most agreed that it was up to the GL of the state and lodge you were seeking to gain entrance into?
   Yes, I agree MR. Jones and Banks and others knew the rules and broke them maybe feeling that no one could tell them what they can or can't do from another country.  Maybe in the early 1900's, they being black men in a country that, at that time, certain states still regarded the black man as 3/5ths man.  Maybe they were trying to establish their themselves as being free men to do what they wish in all respects. It is unfortunate that they maybe they didn't want to recognize that Prince Hall being the a man that was half black and half white did something that no one else could for the benefit of black men in freemasonry because they didn't see him as a black man. I don't know.  But, I agree they made wrong decisions that eventually affected the existence of virtually every African-American clandestine blue lodge and council created under the banner of a scottish rite supreme council and created such a split in masonry that it tears at the beautiful system of morality, that is veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols to bring men of good hearts and like minds out of the dark ages of thinking.


Edited by scotrite357 - October/23/2009 at 10:15am
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Well in the end , and no offense to anyone, it feels dam good to be on the side of an masonic order that is regular and duly chartered. Knowing that your founder was made a mason prior to the date the very country he lived in became a nation....Prince Hall knew his actions would affect men who wanted to join the masonic order in America and worldwide. He knew the importance of a charter from England and so did PGM S.T. Kendall. Lol, I wont even lie, sometimes I wonder if NGL members or clandestine masons didnt start the fire. Even at the UGLE conference that was had with the MWPHGL of MA they(UGLE) asked for our charter to keep for review in order to render a recognition decision. Stated that they could reissue another one. Lol , you know what the answer was to that. Fact of the matter is that Brother PH did all the work for us. Egos, money, schisms- I'm certain Prince Hall was just glad he had obtained Freemasonry in the same if not more legal manner than his counterparts. Glad he had obtained a medium by which he probaly felt he could free his brothers....mentally, socially, and perhaps economically- at a time when black/indian/west indies men werent even really seen as a human being by some. A Declaration of Independence, Anti Masonic movement, Underground Railroad, Civil War.....man you guys know the timeline.  [200+years] Prince Hall thought enough of his future brothers to do what was right- in life and the craft; and to give anyone who so chose the means to join a brotherhood that couldnt be denied as to its legality or foundation. Clandestine masonry in the black community to me only hurts because its like a slap in the face to PH. Buying state charters just doesnt count. Making claims to fictional charters from a "congress" then saying a charter isnt important, then as Flo stated make reference to a Grand Body that they know to be legal and mother of world lodges. I never knock a mans masonic choice....but once I present the facts before me its hard to not respect Prince Hall for what he accomplished for us; and look at clandestines like Ermm

Edited by JLHSMITH - October/23/2009 at 5:12pm
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And let the people of the church say, amen. I know this obviously isn't the first or last time this convo will be had, but for now it seems all that can be said on this subject with all the respect toward all the brothers that has been given, has been said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by iluminado iluminado wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:


Originally posted by scotrite357 scotrite357 wrote:

wow. I'm trying to figure out why these men thought they could just do this.  I mean, what documents or evidence did they produce to support their reasoning.  If any person can just start an organization to start another and another, how does any of them know that the first attempting to organize was even of sound mind and not some old men in dotage, or some person with a "master plan" for their own gain or purpose? Do they just say, "I don't like what you'll are doing" or they couldn't gain admission in the first place and file papers to get a tax i.d. #?
I would like to see this American issued charter that is so often referenced by these bodies.  Even a photo of it will be fine.  I put that request out in 2002.  I am still waiting.


i will have to scan the one that is in the constitution that i have
it has a bunch of seals and the signature of the same dudes listed on the historical sketch


It has been almost two months since I was told I would see this scan and I still have not received or viewed this scan.  It can be attached here if one does not want to give out their email address.

Patiently waiting.....





Edited by Flotown79 - December/11/2009 at 1:05pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2009 at 12:28am
Flo.
You're a funny cat. I'm sorry I forgot to take the book in to scan it
I promise I will post it by next week so you don't have to hurry up
and wait much longer
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FLO

Here you go.  I couldn't get to a scanner today so I took pics with the Blackberry. Remember that this is from the constitution of one of John Jones' offspring GL's in NY
You may even see his signature in one of the pics


http://i49.tinypic.com/r23yvt.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/1z9qfl.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/alm2ir.jpg





Edited by iluminado - December/14/2009 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 9:41pm
Okay, what I didn't see is a regular GL issuing the charters to them. 

I find it funny that these groups require GL to come from them, when they themselves appeared out of nowhere.

F. E. Thomas III, MPS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 9:50pm
Good luck finding those charters they "got" from:
Keystone #1 chartered by the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania, MW HT Brodis GM,
Seneca Lodge #2 chartered by the GL of Illinois, MW John G. Jones GM and
St John Lodge #3 chartered by the GL of Mass. MW H.C. Scott GM


And I'm not going on anymore scanning missions so you're on your own  LOL


Edited by iluminado - December/14/2009 at 9:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stonewall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 7:39am
Humm I/We thank you for the scan :) but where did the book come from? These groups are funny, I will try to shed some light on them later today when I get home from work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by stonewall stonewall wrote:

Humm I/We thank you for the scan :) but where did the book come from? These groups are funny, I will try to shed some light on them later today when I get home from work. 

The book is the constitution of a clandestine gl in ny that was started
by jones and others in 1907 or 08. I have it as I was a member of
one of its subordinate lodges for a number of years before becoming
Regular. From what I see, a number of grand lodges may have such
items in their library collection
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2009 at 5:59pm
For educational purposes only:
Just in case some mistakenly think that these groups mainly meet in barber shops or churches....

Ever passed through Fort Greene NY (that's in Brooklyn for the nonNY cats) and saw the Brooklyn Masonic Temple on Clermont Ave?




Originally built in 1909, with up to 35 F&AM lodges sharing the building in 1912. 

In October 1977, it was bought by The Empire State Grand Council A&A.S.R.M., Inc. (yep, a clandestine group  )
http://brooklynmasonictemple.tripod.com/id5.html
http://brooklynmasonictemple.blogspot.com/
The Temple is rented out to "masonic and nonmasonic" groups for meetings and a multitude of functions and events.

Others include Hiram in Harlem





Enoch in Brooklyn




Edited by iluminado - December/19/2009 at 6:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2009 at 6:15am
Nice buildings...
Unity Lodge #454
W.P.Brown Chapter #142 HRAM
E. J. Jackson #8 KT
Mohammed Temple #34 AEAONMS
J.L.H.Smith Consistory #76 USC SJ PHA
MWPHGLARK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NuPHAmilymember Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2009 at 9:03am
those are some real nice buildings....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotrite357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2009 at 11:54am
http://www.masonicinfo.com/morephonies.htm
I was just scrolling the internet and found comments on this site go along with this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NuPHAmilymember Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2009 at 1:07pm

I might sound silly asking this question.. What's the difference between F&AM and AF&AM....? I know I'm a member of the F&AM but what make a four letter MASON so different?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2009 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by NuPHAmilymember NuPHAmilymember wrote:

I might sound silly asking this question.. What's the difference between F&AM and AF&AM....? I know I'm a member of the F&AM but what make a four letter MASON so different?



a bit of a long complex answer, but here goes


First:
The Grand Lodge of England
was constituted from four lodges on June 24, 1717. During the second half of the 1700s, it experienced a big rift between some members, and the Grand Lodge was split. One group left, and those that stayed with the original Grand Lodge made certain identifying changes in the degree work.

Since this represented a change in the work, it prompted the new Grand Lodge to call themselves the Antients (ancients), since they felt that they preserved the old ways. The older Grand Lodge was termed the Moderns.

Lodges and Grand Lodges whose charters' roots derive from the Grand Lodge of Ancient Freemasons of England , The Grand Lodge of Ireland or the Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons of Scotland use the expression, AF& AM

The Grand Lodges that don't use the name "Ancient", claim descent from the "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons under the constitution of England" during the period from 1717 until 1813. 

As the colonies were established, so were their offspring Lodges with both names.

The "Moderns" and "Ancients" united in November 25, 1813 to form the United Grand Lodge of Ancient Freemasons of England which is now the United Grand Lodge of England.

The usage is not supposed to have any bearing on regularity or recognition.


In the US there are approximately 27 F&AM MS GL's, 22 AF&AM's, 1 AFM (South Carolina after unification of the Ancients and Moderns GLs in 1817), and 1 FAAM (The Grand Lodge, F. A. A. M., of the District of Columbia is the governing body of Free and Accepted Masons in Washington, DC)

As PHA is F&AM as mentioned, you can add another 47 F&AM to the list

In Canada, their 9 GL's are all organized under AF&AM

Now the second part
Most of the irregular/clandestine lodges of African American descent
tend to associate themselves with the AF&AM name (not including PHO since they are regular but unrecognized and are descendents from AL 459).    They style themselves as such as being due to them being of Scottish Rite origin.  As you know Scottish Rite was French in origin and not Scottish at all.  So you end up with folks considering themselves  4 lettered/Scottish (AFAM) vs 3 lettered /York Rite (FAM) which absolutely makes no sense if you follow their history correctly. Terms are being mixed up and used incorrectly. 

It is actually ironic that many of the AF&AM clandie lodges trace their origin to John G. Jones who was an expelled PH F&AM Mason who was very active in the Scottish Rite degrees. 

Thirdly:
It is known that Scottish Rite does technically cover degrees 1-32/33.  The first three are called the Red Lodge degrees or AASR Craft degrees and are from the French Rite and not invented by Pike as many believe.   The Scottish Rite and the Scottish Rite Symbolic Lodges pre-dated Pike's participation in the Scottish Rite, especially in New Orleans. Scottish Rite and French Rite traditions had been in existence in New Orleans as early as 1752.  Pike received the AASR degrees in 1853.

The Louisiana Grand Lodge (F&AM) practices these AASR Craft degrees for EA, FC and MM, Puerto Rico also has mostly Red Lodges and there are a few other jurisdi
ctions that may have a few Red Lodges here or there i.e California, Hawaii, NY, Wisconsin.

I hope that answers your question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NuPHAmilymember Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2009 at 8:02pm
I never had anyone break it down like that...that answer my question to the fullest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2009 at 10:48pm
Nice explanation. 

We must always remember it is not if a GL is 3 or 4 letter that makes a GL regular.  We learn (or are taught) that a Charter or dispensation is part of the indispensable furniture of a lodge. No body of men can be considered Masonic without such a Charter or dispensation from some legitimate Masonic authority.

F. E. Thomas III, MPS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayfaring1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 6:47am
Bro. Iluminado, based on your statement, is that why clandestines feel justified in calling themselves a&asrm jurisdictions, including the ancient craft degrees?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 7:57am
Originally posted by wayfaring1 wayfaring1 wrote:

Bro. Iluminado, based on your statement, is that why clandestines feel justified in calling themselves a&asrm jurisdictions, including the ancient craft degrees?


unfortunately from what I saw and know, they do NOT practice the ancient craft degree work so their claim to aasr is based on how they came into being i.e. by name and not by practice.  It would be one thing if they were red lodges but they aren't and if you ask, they do not know the differences either.

They use the Preston-Webb work and one shouldn't be surprised to know that
there are some regular and clandestine jurisdictions that use the Lester's Look to the East or even Duncan's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 10:37am
Sadly most just use F&AM, AF&AM, or something else.  A perfect example is Hiram of Tyre Grand Lodge A.F.&A.M formally known as Robert J. Fletcher Grand Lodge A.F.&A.M.  Robert J. Fletcher, PMWGM of PHA CA was tried and expelled.  After an attempt for reinstatement failed, Mr. Fletcher formed the Robert J. Fletcher GL (AF&AM).  Although he was a former PGM he decided to go to the state of California to become incorporated.  How did AF&AM become attached to this GL when it is clear there is no association to a regular Masonic body?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayfaring1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 10:45am
I wonder what lead these organizations to think getting incorporated makes them a legitimate masonic order? I would have to think that it would be illegal to the point someone could go to jail for fraud.

Edited by wayfaring1 - December/22/2009 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 10:58am
Originally posted by wayfaring1 wayfaring1 wrote:

I wonder what lead these organizations to think getting incorporated makes them a legitimate masonic order? I would have to think that it would be illegal to the point someone could go to jail for fraud.


Many of their members don't know.  However most of their 'founders' are expelled Grand Officers, WM's and such.  They know the proper way.  Their leadership also know there is little that can be done.  After the Modern Free and Accepted were stopped in court, International Free & Accepted sprang up with the key on its emblem.  Mr. Banks, founder of IF&AM, was a member of the MF&AM. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NuPHAmilymember Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 12:46pm
Where do yall get this information from? Because I was looking at these IF&AM folks and was wondering how did they come about. This is very interesting to me. I'm like how can someone just make up a masonic order and get away with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by NuPHAmilymember NuPHAmilymember wrote:

Where do yall get this information from? Because I was looking at these IF&AM folks and was wondering how did they come about. This is very interesting to me. I'm like how can someone just make up a masonic order and get away with it.


The case was referencing is MWPHGL of GA (F&AM) v. Supreme GL (MF&AM) Colored Masons of the World. 
US Dist Court for the Middle Dist of GA Columbus Division
December 28, 1951



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by wayfaring1 wayfaring1 wrote:

I wonder what lead these organizations to think getting incorporated makes them a legitimate masonic order? I would have to think that it would be illegal to the point someone could go to jail for fraud.


simple and yet another long answer so forgive again in advance...

 They are allowed by the laws of their state to form any corporation or business entity as a fraternal organization. So when they file for incorporation exactly who is going to question/raise the issue of regularity or recognition as it pertains to masonic law unless there are state laws to prevent impersonations...
Usually folks are not aware that such laws do actually exist....for example, NYS has the following law on their books under GBS - General Business
Article 9-B- USE OF NAMES AND SYMBOLS
Section 134 - Fraudulent use of the name or title of secret fraternity.
§ 134. Fraudulent use of the name or title of secret fraternity. Any person, firm, association, society, order or organization, or any officer, agent, representative or employee thereof, or person acting or pretending to act on behalf thereof who in a newspaper or other publication published in this state, or in any letter, writing, circular, paper, pamphlet or other written or printed notice, matter or device without authority of the grand lodge hereinafter mentioned fraudulently uses, or in any manner directly or indirectly aids in the use of the name or title of any secret fraternal association, society, order or organization which has had a grand lodge in this state for ten years, or any imitation of such name or title or any name or title so nearly resembling it as to be calculated to deceive, or who without authority publishes, sells, lends, gives away, circulates or distributes any letter, writing, circular, paper, pamphlet or other written or printed notice, matter or device directly or indirectly advertising for or soliciting members or applications for membership in such secret fraternal association, society, order or organization, or in any alleged or pretended association, society, order or organization, using or designated or claimed to be known by such title or imitation or resemblance thereof or who therein or thereby offers to sell, or to confer or to communicate or to give information directly or indirectly where, how, of whom, or by what means any alleged or pretended degree or any alleged or pretended secret work or any alleged or pretended secrets of such secret fraternal association, society, order or organization or any alleged or pretended association, society, order or organization designated or claimed to be known by such title or imitation or resemblance thereof can or may be obtained, conferred or communicated, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
Section 137 - Unauthorized wearing or use of badge, name or insignia of certain orders and societies.
The actual link to the NYS law can be found here

There is also the other issue of statute of limitations..No one is really challenging these irregular/clandestine/spurious groups so to do so now would probably not be successful.
Let us use the PH Shriners legal case as an example of this point.

In 1872 the white Masons started a fraternity called the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine. The black Masons formed their own Shrine group in 1893, the Ancient Egyptian Arabic Order. Both groups referred to their chapters as "temples." Both called their leader "imperial potentate."  They coexisted, sometimes in the same cities, for at least two decades.

But then, the lawsuits began. In 1914, a white Georgia lodge tried to bar a black lodge from imitating its name, constitution titles, emblems and regalia. The same then happened in Arkansas. When a white Houston group sued its local black counterpart in 1918, the case expanded to include Shriner groups throughout the United States and landed in the U.S. Supreme Court.

The legal battle lasted more than a decade.  On June 3, 1929, the Supreme Court concluded that even though the black Shriners formed their group out of imitation, the white Shriners knew about the group's existence and didn't take legal action for years.

In fact, evidence showed that the white groups sold their paraphernalia to black groups for ceremonial use. The black Shriners were not trying to pass themselves off as white Shriners and it was too late for the whites to claim the symbols as exclusively theirs.

So technically speaking, these clandies can claim that it is too late for us to do anything about their existence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayfaring1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:05am
Here are some more organizations that claims legitimacy.

THE MASONIC HIGH COUNCIL THE MOTHER HIGH COUNCIL
ANCIENT AND HONOURABLE FRATERNITY OF FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS
According to the Old Constitutions granted by His Royal Highness Prince Edwin at York A.D. 926

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayfaring1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:12am
Here's another I have a question about.
National Sovereign Sanctuary
Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraïm
for the United States and Jurisdictions
Does anybody know of these?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aogop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 1:11pm
PM sent to wayfaring on this
JerryP.
Shoreline Lodge#248 F&AM
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