Tiled Forums Are Not Really Tiled |
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ouija21
Newbie Joined: October/21/2014 Location: Alaska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: November/06/2014 at 10:32pm |
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Remember your obligations, & honor both what is to be sacred and or what was intrusted to you in private and keep it that way. With respect I only feel comfortable speaking of things published in books etc... It keeps me within due bounds yet their our some things that are published I still will have no comment. In other words be careful my true brother's and if we need to get deep let us try each other & confirm on telephone or in privacy more especially in lodge if possible.
Fraternally, Brother Larry |
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fm wnc cm yu?
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lyon
Newbie Joined: August/31/2013 Location: Long Beach, MS Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Just a note to any new Freemasons who are interested in learning from Duncan's I'd strongly advise against it. Even if your lodge uses a ritual very similar to what's in the book, you're doing yourself a huge injustice by using it. Learning the work is hard and takes time and effort but you will only get out of the Craft what you put into it. Learning from a coach strengthens both of you in your work, and will help you truly internalize what the words mean.
I like the idea of a tiled forum because I think it could be an excellent resource for education and research as long as none of the signs, tokens, words or rituals are revealed. As a new MM I would be hesitant to participate at this time because I'm still figuring out what is and what isn't appropriate to discuss. For those who know what they're doing, I think it's a great idea. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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Why ... I think you misunderstood ... It is up to the user to prove he is in good standing. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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simple man
Quarryman Joined: April/08/2008 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 462 |
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Lock it down till Max can send emails to all Brothers Sec. of their lodge to see if they are in good standing and their dues is paid up.. What you think Max?
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Initiated 03/04/2008
Passed 01/21/2013 Raised 02/04/2013 S.D. Ft. Valley #110 Scribe Chapter Austin #18 I. M. Council H. C. Rigdon #35 C.G. Commandery Ivanhoe #10 32° Valley of Macon Al Sihah Shrine |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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I find someone using duncans for his answers he will not get access. Duncan is trash. It was never a ritual manual, but an expose' for the unknowing. Pieces are left out and words out of order. ... Duncan is a good resource for the clandestine, for they do not know any better.
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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BroScubaSteve
Quarryman Joined: February/25/2013 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Also, I see a lot of brethren worried about the private forums. You are knocking on the door of your own free will. If you think youre going to break your OB then dont ask for access. Imho... |
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Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
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Ha!
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Flotown79
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Status: Offline Points: 5122 |
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Really? I know a few secrets, and I am not telling. |
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F. E. Thomas III, MPS |
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Adept?
Senior Member Joined: August/30/2013 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 746 |
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I see no one has posted in here in a while. The fact of the matter is nothing that we do or say is secret...not a Single thing. Anything and everything and I do mean everything that anyone could ever want to know about free masonry is available in literature online at libraries and can be purchased at many book stores. Given that fact and given the various modes of recognition in different jurisdictions, the only real true way to know if a brother is who he says he is is to see his current active dues card.
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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ABrother
Newbie Joined: May/29/2011 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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Thanks. I just today figured out how to use the "quote" action to reply so hopefully I will not have to deal with time zone issues again.
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jaya
Moderator Joined: November/16/2010 Location: Western NC Status: Offline Points: 2628 |
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Don't worry about it too much. People will look at each post on an individual basis. We all do not agree on everything but do tend to treat each other with respect. Actually your post shows up for me as 3:27 am. It depends on what you have your timezone set to as to what time it displays as.
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Jay Austin
Black Mountain 663 - Junior Warden AASR Valley of Asheville - KSA The Masonic Society http://westernncmason.blogspot.com |
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ABrother
Newbie Joined: May/29/2011 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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Please read my post dated: 30/May/2011 at 2:27am. I do plan to become an active member of this forum because I think it will be great to be able to learn from other perspectives of Masonry worldwide. Can we please consider this matter closed because I do not want this discussion to define me as a member. I was simply voicing a concern and my concern has been relieved.
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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ABrother
Newbie Joined: May/29/2011 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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Again I appologize for any misunderstanding. I interpereted the post that tyled forums are not really tyled as meaning that tyled forums WERE tyled which led me to believe that one could speak freely about any Masonic subject secret or not. I am glad to hear that that is not the case. Thanks for letting me know about the "Introduction" forum. I will check that out as soon as I finish this post.
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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We prefer that NO secrets are ever "revealed" on this forum at any time, purely because it is an Internet and not a Lodge.
My other point was, that we have an "Introduction" forum and were you to tell a little about yourself, you just may find members who just may live near your neighbourhood. Edited by tm274 - May/30/2011 at 2:30am |
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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ABrother
Newbie Joined: May/29/2011 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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Jaya: That is exactly what I mean. The internet as a whole (weather it is a tyled message board or not) is not a secure place to discuss Masonic topics.
edwmax: When I visit another lodge, I am the one that has to be tried to prove myself. That being said, once I am accepted by those brothers, I am still careful about what I discuss around those I don't know until I believe them to be worthy brothers. tm274: That is basically what I was trying to say. I am not sure how many members there are on this forum, but I am pretty sure it is safe to say that no one has sat in lodge with every verified brother. So since no one can be 100% cetain of a brother's status, care should be taken when discussing secret Masonic topics. And you are correct, you know nothing about me because I am a new member. I do plan on becoming an active participant in this forum, so I do plan on requesting access to the "tyled" forums so hopefully we can become better accquainted as brothers in the future. Also, I am not trying to make a big deal out of any of this, I just think it is important for people to realized that nothing on the computer is 100% secure and discussing any secret information should be done so with a great deal of care because of that fact. For any Admins or Mods that thought I was questioning their ability to determine a brother's status, please know that that was not my intention even though I realize that it came out that way. |
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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On that point, we know knothing about you, either.
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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So when visiting a new Lodge, you personally try each and every Member present before sitting in the Lodge with them???? ..... Lawful information, includes a vouch from a known Mason. The Quarrymen forums and the Members there of, ... are vouched for by the Admins & Mods. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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jaya
Moderator Joined: November/16/2010 Location: Western NC Status: Offline Points: 2628 |
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It does not matter if things can be found on websites or not. We are obligated to not discuss masonic secrets in any manor where they might be revealed.
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Jay Austin
Black Mountain 663 - Junior Warden AASR Valley of Asheville - KSA The Masonic Society http://westernncmason.blogspot.com |
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ABrother
Newbie Joined: May/29/2011 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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-oops..... didn't mean for the last half of my post to be in all bold.
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ABrother
Newbie Joined: May/29/2011 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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I can understand why everyone wants to ensure that no secret Masonic information is discussed in any of these "un-tyled" forums. It seems to be a moot point though since virtually all Masonic ritual, signs, tokens, and words can be found on the internet thanks to anti-Masonic web sites. With that in mind, even if or when I do gain access to the "tyled" areas, I will not discuss any secret Masonic subjects for the simple fact that I can not guarantee that everyone that has access to those forums is indeed a worthy brother. I have to rely on the web-sites Mods or Admins (not that I don't trust them but they are after all human), that someone is worthy. And unless I verify that all present are worthy, then I am obligated to not speak of any secret subject. So as a rule of thumb, as stated in an earlier post, when in doubt, say nothing. I hate for this to be my first post, but it just seems like a lot of unnecessary banter about a subject that really doesn't need to be discussed.
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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The due card is used almost elusively by US & Canadian Lodges; and, allows visiting new Lodges easier. In other world GLs, a Mason can visit; but he must be vouched for by a Brother who has sat in a Lodge with him. This can be a problem when visiting a new Lodge and you do not know anyone there. Of course with due notice the Lodge Secretary can make arrangements with the other Lodge sending Lawful information of the coming visitation.
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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Our 'dues card' is almost exactly the same same the travel card/paper TM had when he came to the states. TM's card (about 4 x 6 in) had the same info on the front side as our cards (wallet size 2 x 3) on the front & back. The card indicates the member's dues are paid and in good standing until the end of the year. Thus the name 'dues card'
During the late early/mid 1800s in the US, there was a problem of suspend Masons traveling from Lodge to Lodge asking for assistance. I think it was the GL of Mass (about 1850 ?), that first suggested the use of membership/dues cards. This slowly grew next years, but soon visiting Masons were being refused entrance if they could not produce document evidence of being in good standing. I can email a copy of mine if you would like to see it. I don't want to give more physical description in the open forums. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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Schultzy, a dues card is issued to the US brethren on payment of fees. It shows that they are financial.
I hope I'm right.
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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schultzy
Quarryman Joined: December/10/2010 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 184 |
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You'll have to excuse my ignorance , but coming from OZ we don't have dues cards and since I've not travelled outside this jurisdiction what is a dues card? How do they establish that the person emailing the copy is a mason?
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We meet in the Grand design of being happy and confering happiness
I 3Nov 1990 P 2Mar 1991 R 1June 1991 |
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Flotown79
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Status: Offline Points: 5122 |
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It takes time my friend. |
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F. E. Thomas III, MPS |
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SPHINX524
Quarryman Joined: June/18/2008 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 106 |
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How long did it normally take you to validate someone even when they provided the information that you asked for?
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Metropolitan Lodge #161 F&AM MWPHGL VA Leesburg Va
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Palmetto Bug
Quarryman Joined: November/06/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 3934 |
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When I was an administrator, my questions would never allow a requester to violate his obligations. I had a weird way of reasonably determining valid Masonic membership – a method that I will not divulge in these open forums since some of the current administrators may use a similar method. The easiest and safest way is to request an administrator’s email address via a private message and then email a good copy of one’s dues card to him. Sometimes – depending on the Jurisdiction – a front and back copy will need to be sent. If the dues card can be examined and determined to be valid, no questions and answers will be needed. |
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Homo sum; humani nihil a me alienum puto.
http://palmettomason.blogspot.com/ |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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The problem is: What one is defined as 'modes of recognition'. Any and all questions used to determine if a person is a Mason, is a 'Mode of Recognition' .... But your Ritual & OB defines certain signs & grips to secret and how to be communicated. .... Should I ask someone for one of these, there is a correct answer that I expect to be given, which will NOT violate one's OB. I normally do not ask these questions, because of the confusion existing in New Masons. I just recently heard and explanation for this confusion of which I completely agree. The New Mason received instruction from an "illiterate Masonic Mentor/Coach" who only knew how to patriot the Catechism. If anyone answering our questions, believes he will violate his OB; then his answer is wrong and/or he has not been property trained. ... A further problem arise when trying to tell New Mason being examined his answer is wrong, when he believes it to be correct and as his Coach taught him; therefore the Tyler is not a regular Mason. ... I normally instruct that Mason to talk to his Coach and get back to me with the correct answer. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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Flotown79
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Status: Offline Points: 5122 |
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Nope. You are not the first to raise this type of questioning and you probably wont be the last. |
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F. E. Thomas III, MPS |
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jaya
Moderator Joined: November/16/2010 Location: Western NC Status: Offline Points: 2628 |
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He never said someone was not tried. He said they did not have to reveal "secret" information or modes of recognition.
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Jay Austin
Black Mountain 663 - Junior Warden AASR Valley of Asheville - KSA The Masonic Society http://westernncmason.blogspot.com |
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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"As I stated previously, I am only trying to find out if the process would cause me to violate my obligation, as I understand it, prior to requesting access."
No one here(Admins/Mods) are here to cause you to violate your Obs......only you can do that.
The process is like edwmax says. It's no different to visiting a Lodge, where you have to prove yourself.
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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When visiting a new Lodge, would answering their question cause you to violate your OBs? You've never sat in that Lodge; the members don't know you & you don't know them. So how is that different than here? |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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As I stated previously, I am only trying to find out if the process would cause me to violate my obligation, as I understand it, prior to requesting access. |
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canuck
Moderator Joined: November/05/2007 Location: Toronto, ON Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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Each and every one of us makes a personal decision whether he enters the tyled section or not. What is a violation of the OB in some jurisdictions, it's not in others. If one feels that he is violating the OB, why is he even asking access?
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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PM me the username that stated he was not tried. I will then tell how he was. ... Lawful information is accepted; as well as different questions that maybe asked. .... The same type questions a Master Mason would expect to be asked outside of the Lodge. .... Remember one of the problems we have, is all the answers & Masonic secrets are available on the internet. |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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Caution1010
Moderator Bro. Never Give Up Joined: November/16/2010 Location: 127.0.0.1 Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
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I can vouch for flotown's strong arm guarding the gate of the tyled forums.
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I: 10/1/10
P: 12/3/10 R: 12/31/10 PHA-AL "You can't trust those fellow-crafts...buncha rogues and murderers!" |
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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No problem here, just trying to get a straight answer in order to make a decision. Is there a problem with that?
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Flotown79
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Status: Offline Points: 5122 |
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What is the problem? Not all Admins/Mods have the same process. I will sometimes call to get a physical description of a person and have the requester to provide a copy of his drivers license along with a current dues card. Sometimes I will simply ask questions. If a dues card does not have a member number I often request it and then verify with their GL using personal resources. There are many ways to find out with actually providing "secrets."
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F. E. Thomas III, MPS |
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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I am simply trying to make sure I understand the process, so I will make another attempt to gain the information that I seek.
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daves
Administrator Joined: January/21/2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3811 |
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And I can vouch for TM and Arash - I've had the privilege to sit in Lodge with both Brethren
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The Carrington Lodge (WAC 363)
Bassendean RAC (WAC 20) 18th Boucaut RC (AASR Australia 5) The Carrington Lodge |
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Flotown79
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Hoover, AL Status: Offline Points: 5122 |
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It really all boils down to this, the Tiled Forms are not a requirement for users of this group. If you have an issue with the method used to gain access you can either visit an Admin's /Mod's lodge and personally sit with them or just leave it alone altogether.
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F. E. Thomas III, MPS |
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tm274
Administrator The True Time Traveling WM .·. Joined: March/31/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5686 |
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I can personally vouch for "edwmax, Palmetto Bug, MikeS & Daves" as I have sat in Lodge with these Brothers.
This is the case with a few other Admins/Mods who have done the same.
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Initiated : 23rd April 2002
Passed : 25th June 2002 Raised : 24th Sept 2002 Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 32° Farenheit is certainly not higher than 3° Cel. |
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edwmax
Administrator Joined: November/06/2007 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 7098 |
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In one of your above post you referenced the OBs' the OBs are about "willfully & knowingly" relieving Masonic secretes; or doing so without due regard and thus carelessly reveling the secrets to those not entitled to receive them. .... Yes these forums could be hacked ( but that wouldn't last for long); but this is no less than your Lodge being bugged or someone turning on their CELL PHONE during ritual. .... These are not you fault and not a violation of your OBs. It is not intended to hold "Tyled Lodge" meetings in the forums. ... But what the Tyled sections are to provide private area for discussions; and to assure the Members those with access (Quarrymen) have been have been Tried (by admins or Mods) and found to be Master Masons. .... It is up to you, and your OBs, as to how open your discussions are. ... Not everyone is comfortable with everything that maybe discussed. Next, not everyone with Quarryman status is recognized by each other's GLs. This is why Membership is restricted to recognizes Lodge/GLs of the US, the UGLE and PHA. So it is up to you to resolve your part of the OB about "holding Masonic communication" with Clandestine, or suspended Masons, "I Knowing them to be such". (Many GLs are at 'don't ask; and don't tell' ... in regards to part of this... MS & PHA relations) Next, being tried in PMs: ... None of my questions when correctly answered will cause a Mason to violate his OBs. ... Now you have to realize the same as when visiting a Lodge for the first time; you are the one at the Door asking to enter; They (Tyler, SD, WM, Lodge) have the right to Try you and are required to find you worthy before allowing you to enter. ... The same with these forums, we don't invite you to join the Tyled forums. YOU have to PM an Admin or Mod and request access. .... Some say to me (admin) "how do I know you are a Master Mason?" ... The answer: You should have already determined that before asking for "Tyled access". The same as you would before visiting a new Lodge. .... You can be assured the Admins & Mods are, and know what they are doing. I have stated before, I can vouch for every Quarryman on the Forums; either I, another Admin or Mod has made the proper inquires. Edited by edwmax - April/21/2011 at 8:04pm |
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"He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself."
Thomasville 369 |
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Caution1010
Moderator Bro. Never Give Up Joined: November/16/2010 Location: 127.0.0.1 Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
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I see masonic.truth's concern about the hacking.
Especially since there would have to be some masonic discourse to get approved into the tyled forums. That may not necessarily be the case for a GM email or a Lodge sec email. But I don't think mailbox security on a forum is something to be worried about personally.
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I: 10/1/10
P: 12/3/10 R: 12/31/10 PHA-AL "You can't trust those fellow-crafts...buncha rogues and murderers!" |
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canuck
Moderator Joined: November/05/2007 Location: Toronto, ON Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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Of course it can be hacked... the same way your personal e-mail can be hacked, the e-mail of the secretary of the lodge, the Grand Secretary... the same way someone can steal your mail from your mailbox.
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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So you are saying that the Forum can not be hacked. |
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canuck
Moderator Joined: November/05/2007 Location: Toronto, ON Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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The private messages can not be accessed by an unauthorized person. The only one accessing them is the owner of that mail-box.
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masonic.truths
Muzzled Joined: February/20/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 804 |
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I understand the perils associated with posting in the "Tiled Forum". That can be easily overcome by not posting anything that could violate my obligation.
My major concern is with what I would have to reveal via Private Message to gain access, if as I stated above it would require disclosing modes of recognition, the possibility of an unauthorized person accessing the Private Message would bother me. No one has addressed that. |
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