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Why two prince hall grand bodies in florida

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P.M. R Williams View Drop Down
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    Posted: December/11/2009 at 9:10am
One bodies is ph af@am the other is pha f@am. The af@am has the charter to both bodies. A few years ago they tried to unite. Due to money and power this didnt happen. its a shame how one points the finger at the other. unite they can be a mighty force!!!
"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked than it is loved by the good." new south #12 Prince Hall Miami, fl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 11:09am

There is only one legitimate grand lodge with PHA in its title in Florida and that is:

Most Ancient & Honorable Fraternity of Free & Accepted Masons, P.H.A. Florida, Belize, Central America, St. Johns US Virgin Islands Jurisdiction, Inc.
 
All of the others groups are bogus. These groups are intentionally trying to confuse the uninformed to gain members and notoriety.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote P.M. R Williams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 11:25am
What I was told is the mwgl of florida af@am has PHA's charter so how are they legitimate?the original charter is a the af@am gl. i also asked this question of the ones who put out who are the bogus masons. i never got answer! if  you have pha lodges  there should be ph lodges without the (A)? is this true?
"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked than it is loved by the good." new south #12 Prince Hall Miami, fl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 11:49am
There is only one PHA GL per state.  From my understanding in MS and FL, those other GL incorporated the name first.  We all know that a name does not means anything when it comes to being regular, bogus, clandestine, ect.

The MWPHGL AF&AM -  Chartered by the General Grand Masonic Congress

The General Grand Masonic Congress - The brain child of Thornton Jackson and John G. Jones




Edited by Flotown79 - December/11/2009 at 11:52am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote P.M. R Williams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 11:54am
i was rasied in the mwphagl of ca. and i live in miami, for years i tried to no end to find the difference. the grand masonic congress is?
"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked than it is loved by the good." new south #12 Prince Hall Miami, fl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 11:56am
Originally posted by P.M. R Williams P.M. R Williams wrote:

i was rasied in the mwphagl of ca. and i live in miami, for years i tried to no end to find the difference. the grand masonic congress is?


I don't understand your question.

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Prince Hall History is not as clear as one would like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 12:04pm
It is not the letters AF&AM or F&AM that makes a GL 'legit'.  The origin of the Grand Lodge is one of the most important things in Masonry.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Prince Hall History is not as clear as one would like.


True but in this case the MWPHGL of FL AF&AM clearly has no trace, link, ect. to any regular GL in the world.


Edited by Flotown79 - December/11/2009 at 12:06pm

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ok, thanks for the information it was very helpful!
"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked than it is loved by the good." new south #12 Prince Hall Miami, fl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 12:47pm
"The importance in the education of Bogus Masonic practices, is to teach Prince Hall Masons, Mainstream Masons, our Communities, and Bogus individuals who belong to irregular or clandestine bodies, the true Laws of Masonry in which we must follow, to enlighten all, of the deceit in the origin of these spurious groups, and offer the opportunity to correct their errors from the way they became irregular. Many innocent Men have fallen victim to these Masonic imitation groups as well as their family members." - Bro Ezekiel Bey 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by P.M. R Williams P.M. R Williams wrote:

What I was told is the mwgl of florida af@am has PHA's charter so how are they legitimate?the original charter is a the af@am gl. 
 
I would like to see this charter. Especailly since GLs are not chartered by PHA standards. It has been discussed by some in other circles that the charter is a facsimile of the AL 459 Charter. If so, that document holds no authority.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 3:41pm
This is an easy thing to see where the AFAM GL is not regular.
 
 
 
Lol, come on guys, the charter was stolen. Does that sound like a regular lodge/GL? If I took my lodges' charter and started a lodge, would it be regular or clandestine? I think we all know the answer. There is only ONE legally chartered GL of PHA descent - MWUGL of FL. Why would a legally chartered GL need a charter in the General Masonic Congress?


Edited by JLHSMITH - December/11/2009 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by JLHSMITH JLHSMITH wrote:


Why would a legally chartered GL need a charter in the General Masonic Congress?


I've been patiently waiting on this answer for years also........

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 4:28pm
Once again I ask. If Union GL was chartered(issue of charter), who issued it? According to PM Stafford in A Living Schism, The 3 lodges which organized to form Union GL were Chartered by Hiram GL of Pa, a Clandestine GL and rival of GL of PA. Did Hiram GL of Pa issue this stolen charter? That is equivilent to stealing a fake Picazzo 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2009 at 5:02pm
The Hiram GL and the MWPHGL of PA merged in 1847.  The MWUGL of FL PHA was not established until 1870.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote princehall1775 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 10:23am
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

I would like to see this charter. Especailly since GLs are not chartered by PHA standards.


No, Bro. Belcher. It's not a standard that PHA made up.  This is a REGULAR standard used by the UGLE and most regular and recognized Grand Lodges across the world that Grand Lodges are formed by previously existing regular lodges. They are not given a charter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote capquest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 12:09pm
As a Brother of a MS Lodge in Florida and one who earnestly hopes for recognition and visitation I'm confused. How can we recognize PH Masonry if it can't be determined which is PHA mainstream?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 1:12pm
It is very simple.  All one has to do is look at the origin.  Of the two GL's one traces to the MWPHGL of PA and one traces to the General Grand Masonic Congress.

People often get confused with the names.  Lets take England for example.  There is the UGLE and the RGLE.  Both sound similar but look at the origin and if it passes the regularity test.  One does and one does not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by capquest capquest wrote:

As a Brother of a MS Lodge in Florida and one who earnestly hopes for recognition and visitation I'm confused. How can we recognize PH Masonry if it can't be determined which is PHA mainstream?


"In 1917 Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge F. & A.M. got its beginning; in 1935 they were issued a charter by the General Grand Masonic Congress A.F. & A.M. to become members of that Congress. Because of the four letter affiliation they became know as Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge A.F. & A.M. of Florida and Jurisdiction, Inc. There are 77 Lodges across the state of Florida." - MWPHGL of FL (AF&AM)



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Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

It is very simple.  All one has to do is look at the origin.  Of the two GL's one traces to the MWPHGL of PA and one traces to the General Grand Masonic Congress.

People often get confused with the names.  Lets take England for example.  There is the UGLE and the RGLE.  Both sound similar but look at the origin and if it passes the regularity test.  One does and one does not.


Brother there is only PHA Grand Lodge in Florida. There is no confusion.

The M.W. Union Grand Lodge of Florida, P.H.A.
http://www.mwuglflorida.org/

Here is a list of PHA Grand Lodges. You will see which one is listed. 
http://www.bessel.org/glspha.htm

The AF&AM "Prince Hall" Grand Lodge is not even pretending to be PHA. Their history is on their website so it shouldn't be any confusion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by princehall1775 princehall1775 wrote:



The AF&AM "Prince Hall" Grand Lodge is not even pretending to be PHA. Their history is on their website so it shouldn't be any confusion.



True, but they do claim to be regular.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote capquest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 3:31pm
Further my previous comment, Can you imagine the response if the MS GL of FL cjose one or the other to recognize?Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by capquest capquest wrote:

Further my previous comment, Can you imagine the response if the MS GL of FL cjose one or the other to recognize?Dead


Claiming to be regular and being able to prove it are two different things.  There is no confusion from regular GL's when it comes down to recognizing the The Most Worshipful United Grand Lodge of Ancient, Free & Accepted Masons of Democratic Republics or the GL of VA.  There is no confusion when it comes to recognizing the UGLE or RGLE. 

When considering recognition facts are all that really matter. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote princehall1775 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by princehall1775 princehall1775 wrote:



The AF&AM "Prince Hall" Grand Lodge is not even pretending to be PHA. Their history is on their website so it shouldn't be any confusion.



True, but they do claim to be regular.


LOL. Flotown I meant to respond to capquest not you.  I hit the wrong "quote" link.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by princehall1775 princehall1775 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by princehall1775 princehall1775 wrote:



The AF&AM "Prince Hall" Grand Lodge is not even pretending to be PHA. Their history is on their website so it shouldn't be any confusion.



True, but they do claim to be regular.


LOL. Flotown I meant to respond to capquest not you.  I hit the wrong "quote" link.


I figured that after I went back and reread the post.  No harm, no foul.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote capquest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:36pm
I believe that this is a good time for the MS GL to remain silent on the subject until the PH Lodges figure it out between themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by capquest capquest wrote:

Further my previous comment, Can you imagine the response if the MS GL of FL cjose one or the other to recognize?Dead


Claiming to be regular and being able to prove it are two different things.  There is no confusion from regular GL's when it comes down to recognizing the The Most Worshipful United Grand Lodge of Ancient, Free & Accepted Masons of Democratic Republics or the GL of VA.  There is no confusion when it comes to recognizing the UGLE or RGLE. 

When considering recognition facts are all that really matter. 
 
I totally agree Flo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by capquest capquest wrote:

I believe that this is a good time for the MS GL to remain silent on the subject until the PH Lodges figure it out between themselves.


I am not sure what is there to figure out.  One is telling you (via website) they are a ember of the General Grand Masonic Congress.  This is a body that was co-founded by Mr. John Jones after he was expelled from a regular GL. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:44pm

And Flo., speaking of Florida- I have copies of the proceedings of MWUGL 1909. Lol, GM Dickerson had big plans and dreams for a GL building. $$$ and lack of respect for masonic authority are the reason the situation in FL that exists today.



Edited by JLHSMITH - December/29/2009 at 4:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote capquest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 4:49pm
Do any of you Brother know how MS GL that recognize Prince Hall and had the same issues with two PH jurisdictions both claiming to be regular handled the issue? I am but a humble secretary and I sometimes just don't understand the machinations of Grand Lodges of any jurisdiction. On the other hand I took and obligation to "s* to and a* by the......."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 5:00pm
I am sure (at least I hope) that each GL has a standard that must be upheld before recognition is given.  One requirement should be origin.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluminado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by capquest capquest wrote:

Do any of you Brother know how MS GL that recognize Prince Hall and had the same issues with two PH jurisdictions both claiming to be regular handled the issue? I am but a humble secretary and I sometimes just don't understand the machinations of Grand Lodges of any jurisdiction. On the other hand I took and obligation to "s* to and a* by the......."


hello bro cap
  i sense that you may be having a bit of difficulty in seeing why it is a nonissue other than one of nomenclature and origin..maybe this might help

let's say that there are two cars  a ferrari and a civic with a ferrari logo plastered on its grill

just because the civic is calling itself ferrari of all cars, any car expert would say that it is quite easy to recognize which one is really a ferrari without even looking under the hood.....

the same application would apply as far as MS GL recognition of which should be recognized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote princehall1775 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by capquest capquest wrote:

I believe that this is a good time for the MS GL to remain silent on the subject until the PH Lodges figure it out between themselves.


1) I don't appreciate you continuing to say there is no confusion when we keep telling you that there is none.  To the uninformed reading this forum you will make them there is really confusion when there is not among regular Masons.  For the 3rd time, there is only one Prince Hall Affiliated Grand Lodge in Florida which is the "M.W. Union Grand Lodge of Florida P.H.A." I have given you links that you can confirm yourself.  The other Grand Lodge only has the name "Prince Hall" in it. It is clearly not one of the 40+ Grand Lodges in the Prince Hall Affiliation that descend from African Lodge #459. The AF&AM Grand Lodge says right on their own website they are under the bogus "Grand General Masonic Congress"

2) The "mainstream" Grand Lodge has been silent on the issue for hundreds of years.  Only 10 "mainstream" Grand Lodges don't recognize their PHA counterpart and they are all in the deep south. Mere coincidence?

When the "mainstream" Grand Lodge of Florida FINALLY recognizes their other counterpart that also has a regular Masonic lineage that Grand Lodge will be Union Grand Lodge.
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Let the truth prevail.
 
 
please read and decide for yourself, i have personally viewd some of these documnet
 
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Originally posted by mag1960 mag1960 wrote:

Let the truth prevail.
 
 
please read and decide for yourself, i have personally viewd some of these documnet
 
PM Michael A. Griffin
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Great read. I think that answers the question right there.
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Greetings Bro Smith,
 
I was wondering if I could get a copy of MWUGL, preceedings from 1909 you or maybe you could direct me where I could get them .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stuntman98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 9:30am

I hope this help, MWUGLFL (PHA) http://www.mwuglflorida.org/ you can find the like to this page from http://www.princehall.org/links.html     No way to battle these results S.M.I.B.

S.S. Sons of Light No.77
P.M. Pride of The Walton No.110
MWPHGL Washington
District No.9

SPAIN MILITARY CONSISTORY #99 AASR,PHA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danekt32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2010 at 11:54pm

I realize this is an old thread but please allow me to add my $.02. As many well informed Brothers within this jurisdiction and without have accurately pointed out,  there is only ONE, legitimate and properly recognized PHA grand Lodge in Florida and that is The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge, Free and Accepted Masons, Florida; Belize, Central America and St. John U.S.V.I., Incorporated, Prince Hall Affiliated.  Among Prince Hall masons this is a long settled issue but it is good to ask to questions for newer members of the Craft or the interested observer. I’d like to add three points to enhance the conversation.

                First, as an earlier poster mentioned, our Grand Lodge in Florida was started by three lodges that were the offspring of Hiram Grand Lodge (National Compact) of Pennsylvania. I doubt that our beginnings were much different from many later established(post Civil War) PHA Grand Lodges in that there were mixtures of "Compact" masons as well as "Regular" Prince Hall Masons. I find it impossible for a modern day Prince Hall mason to look at our history of "whence we came", and not appreciate the dynamic of the times. As noted earlier, the Pennsylvania Grand Lodges "reconciled" in 1847 and the Union Grand Lodge of Florida was officially started in 1870, 23 years apart. But let’s look further at that 23 time span. What happened between 1850 and 1870? All hell broke loose (Well actually for us black folk, we had always been in Hell up to, during, and after that time). So while Pennsylvania like many northern Grand Lodges gained amity with their "Compact" Grand Lodge brethren that did little to stop the spread of "Compact" masonry throughout the rest of the country. I can only imagine that the charismatic types like Bro. Greaves, Bro. Stringer (who helped start MW Stringer Grand Lodge of Mississippi, the other PHA Grand Lodge without Prince Hall in its official title), and brothers like Bro. John Jones (I know, but he was for good early on) had no problem coming into new areas of the South and starting Masonry as they saw fit. I am not suggesting that most or even much of Masonry as practiced during the time was questionable, but it would appear hard for the casual observer to tell a difference? By what standard would one judge? However after having the official opportunity to discern the difference, it was clear where Florida chose to be, among the number of regular Masons of Prince Hall linage.

                Secondly, as was highlighted in PM (now MWGM) Stafford’s research and our records show, the AFAM "Prince Hall" Grand Lodge was actually started in 1912 by expelled brothers from our own Grand Lodge. I won't get into specifics, please read the article, but I will suppose that those poor Brothers heart might have been in the right place. However, two wrongs don't make a right, and what those former members did was illegal and clear violation of the oaths they took. I personally can empathize with them founding members just as I emphasize with any person who joined Masonry on the "wrong" side of the tracks unknowingly. But once one is proverbially brought to light regarding legitimate PHA masonry, then, a decision has to be made. If one chooses illegitimacy well then off to the dark side you go.

                Lastly, a point I'd like to make to all younger Prince Hall Masons who are eager to receive more light in Masonry is to joint some other bodies in Masonry. As you research you will find amazing timeline coincident with the other bodies’ history, linage, and key characters that will overlap mush of the discussions regarding this time period in American History.

                I will end here but I hope it created some food for thought amongst the craft.

 

 

PM Christopher D. Terrell,33°
Rudolph Bradley Lodge #706, F&AM PHA

Orlando, Florida
"Be true to your vocation, and I'll be true to mine."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote princehall1775 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2010 at 8:09am
Originally posted by danekt32 danekt32 wrote:

                Secondly, as was highlighted in PM (now MWGM) Stafford’s research and our records show, the AFAM "Prince Hall" Grand Lodge was actually started in 1912 by expelled brothers from our own Grand Lodge. I won't get into specifics, please read the article, but I will suppose that those poor Brothers heart might have been in the right place. However, two wrongs don't make a right, and what those former members did was illegal and clear violation of the oaths they took. I personally can empathize with them founding members just as I emphasize with any person who joined Masonry on the "wrong" side of the tracks unknowingly.

But the founders of the clandestine Grand Lodge knew what they were doing so there is a big difference. You can't compare an ordinary citizen who has no idea about Masonic jurisprudence to seasoned Masons starting their own Grand Lodge.

Also you speak of John Jones you probably are referring to his nephew John G. Jones. John G. Jones knew exactly what he was doing also when he started clandestine lodges in the 1890s and early 1900s. John G. Jones knew very well about Masonic lineage, etc as he was an opponent of the National Compact.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danekt32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2010 at 9:58pm

Great point, my Brother. As I pointed out, while I could emphasize with their sentiments and unaddressed grievances they may have had, to do what those ex-Masons did was inexcusable. Almost immediately after realising the improperness of their actions, these ex-Masons "ran for cover" and tried to get any quazi-official group to santion their actions;i.e."the Grand Congress" or whatever the spurious body was.

Also, please note that by the 1880s-1890s, Masonic Jurisprudence (in Prince Hall Masonry especially) as it is curently practiced began to form and the actions of individuals like John G. Jones and others were purely for their own selfish and egotistical reasons.

PM Christopher D. Terrell,33°
Rudolph Bradley Lodge #706, F&AM PHA

Orlando, Florida
"Be true to your vocation, and I'll be true to mine."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donzell49 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2012 at 6:36pm
It is very simple.  The Prince Hall Grand Lodge  based in Jacksonville is a member of the Conference of Prince Hall Grand Masters of which the original Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Massachusetts is a member. Several members of this group have formal relations with the Grand Lodge of England which begat the Florida  Lodge.  My father was a member of the Orlando lodge and we could never talk masonically. The two Florida lodges need to combine! 

http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2012 at 11:14pm
Say what....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 8:49am
Here we go again......
Jay Austin

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The Masonic Society

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Bigs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/11/2012 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Say what....
I believe the proper term is "Say What Now"LOL
Junior Warden

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