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Topic ClosedClandie lodge refusing to give a demit

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Clandie lodge refusing to give a demit
    Posted: May/03/2010 at 10:31am
 
     I know a gentleman who was in a bogus lodge and is petitioning for degrees in a regular lodge.  The regular lodge said he had to get a demit to prove his affiliation with the bogus lodge has been removed.  The bogus lodge informed the gentleman that he will not get a demit until he has become financial with them.  The gentleman stopped giving them any money because he found they were bogus. 
     My question is:  Is there any legal action he can take against this lodge to force them to give him some kind of paper work that at least he asked for a demit?  Is there some precidence that he can give them, in hand, to force them to release him?
     To clarify, the regular lodge just needs something written and signed by this bogus lodge to prove he is no longer associated with them in case any question comes up later as to his clear commitment to being a regular mason in a regular lodge. 
 


Edited by 150man - May/04/2010 at 4:09pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 10:55am
It's not easy to get that letter, especially if they know that he wants to join a real lodge.
He should check the statutes of the bogus lodge. If they are registered under the law (most probably they are), they need to have some sort of guidelines and regulations (like our Constitutions). His duties towards them and their duties towards him should be clarified there. I think that should be the first step.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 11:03am
See, this is one of the tactics often used by these groups.  I have posted this before and a member from a specific body called me a liar. 

Honestly I would post this in the open section.  There have been a few forum members that have left these groups and they might be able to give better assistance.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

See, this is one of the tactics often used by these groups.  I have posted this before and a member from a specific body called me a liar. 

Honestly I would post this in the open section.  There have been a few forum members that have left these groups and they might be able to give better assistance.
I agree, as we really shouldn't  hide the deceptions some Clandestine use to "have a hold" their members.
It's up to us to help those that have been deceived.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 6:47pm
He might be able bring an action in equity against the clandestine lodge to force them to state their case in writing, but that would be expensive and no guarantee that a judge would rule in his favor.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by tm274 tm274 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

See, this is one of the tactics often used by these groups.  I have posted this before and a member from a specific body called me a liar. 

Honestly I would post this in the open section.  There have been a few forum members that have left these groups and they might be able to give better assistance.
I agree, as we really shouldn't  hide the deceptions some Clandestine use to "have a hold" their members.
It's up to us to help those that have been deceived.
 
 
If you want to move it, Flotown.......no objection from me.


I will wait and let 150man make the call since it is his thread.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 9:44pm
The member in question should make the request for the dimit in writing.  When the bogus lodge replies requiring that he pay past & current dues, then write an "I Quit" letter to the lodge and send it by certified mail with return receipt.

It not so much as a dimit from the bogus lodge, as just proof the member and the bogus lodge has severed their relationship.   The lodge's demand for dues before issuing the dimit and the "I Quit" letter should be sufficient.   ..... Most likely this is the best he can get.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 10:16pm
I would even get it notarized.   This way that can't claim they got a blank envelope.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 9:38am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

The member in question should make the request for the dimit in writing.  When the bogus lodge replies requiring that he pay past & current dues, then write an "I Quit" letter to the lodge and send it by certified mail with return receipt.

It not so much as a dimit from the bogus lodge, as just proof the member and the bogus lodge has severed their relationship.   The lodge's demand for dues before issuing the dimit and the "I Quit" letter should be sufficient.   ..... Most likely this is the best he can get.


 
    Since this is his second attempt at getting a demit, I advised the gentleman to take whatever they give him, if they actually respond to him.  If they don't, I told him to do also as stated here, send it certified with return reciept requested.  It is an unfortunate situation.  He has been caught up in this for six months or so now.  I will keep the forum informed how it turns out.  Hopefully, this will not turn into a legal back and forth scenerio, but if it does, at least it will be an example to those running these illegal outfits that they can't just do whatever they want illegally and call it freemasonry.Angry
     I have no objections to this being moved to the public forum. 
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 9:57am
Wouldn't it be a possibility that if they refuse to acknowledge his request how about putting an ad in his local paper under the public notice section stating something to the effect like this:

"I do hereby withdraw my membership from "blah blah lodge, #123".  Furthermore, I have requested a dimit and have been denied this request.  I do further acknowledge and state that I wish to have no further affiliation with said lodge effective immediately."

With it being a bogus lodge what would the brothers of this site think about something like that?  Too much?

I mean it could be tweeked more but might be an option if the brothers of the legitimate lodge he intends to petition would agree to it.

Just an idea..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 10:12am
I agree with mm00re. The whole point of this exercise is to show the legit lodge that he has severed all ties with the clandestine lodge. Public notice in the newspaper should be sufficient enough.
I think he should talk openly about this problem with the secretary and the WM of the lodge in which he is applying.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 12:41pm
Public notice in the newspaper sounds like an idea.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 12:52pm
Ok...stupid question. :)

If the lodge is "bogus" then why would one need to demit from an organization that a true lodge does not recognize as true in the first place?  Does the legitimate recognized lodge somewhat give the bogus lodge legitimacy by having them make it official?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by PSquared PSquared wrote:

Ok...stupid question. :)

If the lodge is "bogus" then why would one need to demit from an organization that a true lodge does not recognize as true in the first place?  Does the legitimate recognized lodge somewhat give the bogus lodge legitimacy by having them make it official?
 
Not at all.  I think the lodge is simply requesting written proof from the potential candidate from the organization that the individual wishing to petition the regular lodge has officially notified them of his termination of membership.  How would the regular lodge otherwise have proof that the individual is not just seeking membership to learn the inner workings of the lodge and then report back to the bogus lodge of his findings?  I see him getting a demit from a bogus lodge as denouncing the clandestine lodge and also letting them know that they are bogus and actually committing fraud!Angry 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 1:51pm
Thinking about this some more, wouldn't it be cool if there was a ruling preventing the incorporation of any organization claiming to be masonic or having mason or freemasonry anywhere in their title unless they provided proof of their legitimacy to exist?  Maybe someday, somebody could propose this to be a law to protect the integrity of our fraternity from those who would use our identity to profit from those uninformed individuals who get caught in their web lies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 1:52pm
Thanks...that does make sense.  Hey...I am new..I will have a lot of stupid questions:)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by 150man 150man wrote:

Thinking about this some more, wouldn't it be cool if there was a ruling preventing the incorporation of any organization claiming to be masonic or having mason or freemasonry anywhere in their title unless they provided proof of their legitimacy to exist?  Maybe someday, somebody could propose this to be a law to protect the integrity of our fraternity from those who would use our identity to profit from those uninformed individuals who get caught in their web lies.


I believe there are laws already on the books.  Many of the predominately black bogus, clandestine, ect groups have lost that battle in court. 

There was some discussion here, I think in '08, on that very topic.  One state,  I believe it is Mass, actually enforces it.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

 

There was some discussion here, I think in '08, on that very topic.  One state,  I believe it is Mass, actually enforces it.


 
I wonder how that has fared for them?  Has it really cracked down on spurios lodges?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 2:58pm
I need to make a correction.  It is not Mass, it is Conn. 

Section 6206.

Extract From General Statutes of State Re: Unlawful Wearing of Insignia.
By statute law of Connecticut (Section 53-377, General Statutes, 1958, as amended), it is a penal offense, punishable with a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500), to willfully wear the insignia, rosette or badge of any fraternal order, or use the same to obtain aid or assistance, or to use the name of any such society, organization or order, or the titles of its officers, or its ritual or ceremonies, unless entitled to do so under the Constitution, By-laws or Rules and Regulations of such order or society, or to claim to be a member thereof, with intent to deceive or defraud.

This may be why the COBM (Commission on Bogus Masonry) has no known bogus GL's in Conn.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

I need to make a correction.  It is not Mass, it is Conn. 

Section 6206.

Extract From General Statutes of State Re: Unlawful Wearing of Insignia.
By statute law of Connecticut (Section 53-377, General Statutes, 1958, as amended), it is a penal offense, punishable with a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500), to willfully wear the insignia, rosette or badge of any fraternal order, or use the same to obtain aid or assistance, or to use the name of any such society, organization or order, or the titles of its officers, or its ritual or ceremonies, unless entitled to do so under the Constitution, By-laws or Rules and Regulations of such order or society, or to claim to be a member thereof, with intent to deceive or defraud.

This may be why the COBM (Commission on Bogus Masonry) has no known bogus GL's in Conn.




It is not too often that I say this, but it seems the Connecticut legislature has finally gotten something right!!!  I am so proud to be from CT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

I need to make a correction.  It is not Mass, it is Conn. 

Section 6206.

Extract From General Statutes of State Re: Unlawful Wearing of Insignia.
By statute law of Connecticut (Section 53-377, General Statutes, 1958, as amended), it is a penal offense, punishable with a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500), to willfully wear the insignia, rosette or badge of any fraternal order, or use the same to obtain aid or assistance, or to use the name of any such society, organization or order, or the titles of its officers, or its ritual or ceremonies, unless entitled to do so under the Constitution, By-laws or Rules and Regulations of such order or society, or to claim to be a member thereof, with intent to deceive or defraud.

This may be why the COBM (Commission on Bogus Masonry) has no known bogus GL's in Conn.




First let me say that I am in no way defending irregular Masonic Organizations, but I am curious how this could actually be enforced because:
  1. Some irregular bodies actually are chartered as nonprofit organizations, have tax ID numbers and comply with all of the required federal and state reporting requirements in addition to having Rules and Regulations (Constitutions,By-Laws, etc.).
  2. Other than Seals, Legal Names, trademarked or copyrighted items, or some other type of paraphanalia that might be specific to an individual Jurisdiction, I would think that the large majority of Masonic Symbols would be considered to be in the public domain.
So, how would the courts determine the legitimacy of an organization, other than by determining if they were properly organized under the laws of the jurisdiction they operate in.  I believe the courts  would be very hesitant to decide which organizations are entitled to use most of the symbols recognized as associated with Freemasonry if that organization can show that they have complied with all legal requirements for the jurisdiction they operate in.

One post mentioned that there have been court cases concerning this, I would be interested to know the specifics of these cases in order to increase my knowledge in this area.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 3:57pm
There have already been many court cases where the courts have ruled against such groups. I have not one case where any court has ruled in their favor.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

There have already been many court cases where the courts have ruled against such groups. I have not one case where any court has ruled in their favor.



Can you send me the citations of the cases.  I would like to read the Judgements rendered against them.

Thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 4:17pm
The gentleman I'm refering to belonged to a lodge under the modern free and accepted masons.  I forwarded him this court case:  http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/mfcourt1.php
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:


Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

There have already been many court cases where the courts have ruled against such groups. I have not one case where any court has ruled in their favor.

Can you send me the citations of the cases.  I would like to read the Judgements rendered against them.Thanks.


I have listed many throughout different topics. I have them on my thumb drive and will pm them to you or post them when I get home. (responding via cell). A few are located on the Phylaxis Society's website under court cases.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

I agree with mm00re. The whole point of this exercise is to show the legit lodge that he has severed all ties with the clandestine lodge. Public notice in the newspaper should be sufficient enough.
I think he should talk openly about this problem with the secretary and the WM of the lodge in which he is applying.
Agreed. Odds are, they would also do what they can to help.

Good Luck to him.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 5:58pm
Doesn't the regular lodge or its Grand Lodge have a document called a Renunciation Form that he can complete and sign in front of the Master and Secretary as evidence that he renounces his affiliation with the clandie group? 

I gladly filled one of those out as a requirement for my petition for membership in a regular and recognized Lodge.  It makes no sense to go back to the clandie group for anything..Severed ties should be severed ties.   If they are not recognized anyway, what value does their demit have?
Kinda like saying Here is my paper from the Prince of Zamunda letting the world know that I'm no longer a citizen of Zamunda...It being signed as an official Zamunda document which no one recognizes as a legal country anyway...


Edited by iluminado - May/04/2010 at 5:58pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 7:35pm
I am sure the lodge I am joining is legit...at least I think so, it is registered with the Grand Lodge of Georgia.  How does one end up in a "non legit" lodge?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:07pm
When i crossed over, I had to give a copy of my "birth Cert" to my new home other than that they were not concerned if my dues or anything were caught up with the bogus lodge because they didnt count them anyway... and in the long run if he has to give the bogus lodge alot of money to leave then thats less money the new lodge could have recieved!! Jus my opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:09pm
Why would one have to give money to leave?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by 150man 150man wrote:

 
 To clarify, the regular lodge just needs something written and signed by this bogus lodge to prove he is no longer associated with them in case any question comes up later as to his clear commitment to being a regular mason in a regular lodge. 
 
 
Wouldnt the obligation he will take at his new lodge be sufficient enough proof that he will no longer associate with the bogus lodge?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by PSquared PSquared wrote:

Why would one have to give money to leave?


This is one of the tactics that these groups do.  They are attempting to get as much money from this individual as they can. 

I can almost promise you they gave or will give him the white man is evil as a last attempt to keep him in their ranks. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:21pm

Everyone has a boss!!!! I'm Curious to see if he has contacted the Grand Lodge of the Org in his state, and see if they agree with what this lodge is doing, afterall they are responsible to/for them.  Even if it is Spurious.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:43pm
I have some recent, real-world experience in this area.
 
A man petitioned a lodge in my District. He provided a description of the clandestine body that he was formerly associated with and signed a statement denouncing and renouncing the same. Said statement was forwarded by the lodge to the Grand Secretary. The Grand Master approved - in writing - for the lodge to act on the petition. No contact with the clandestine body was required or expected.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

There have already been many court cases where the courts have ruled against such groups. I have not one case where any court has ruled in their favor.



Can you send me the citations of the cases.  I would like to read the Judgements rendered against them.

Thanks.


INTERNATIONAL FREE AND ACCEPTED MODERN MASONS, a Delaware Corporation, et al., Appellants, v. MOST WORSHIPFUL PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE, FREE & ACCEPTED MASONS OF KENTUCKY, et al., Appellees.


Court of Appeals of Kentucky .


318 S.W.2d 46; 1958 Ky. LEXIS 126; 76 A.L.R.2d 1386; 119 U.S.P.Q. (BNA) 393



Nov. 14, 1958.

 

CASE SUMMARY

PROCEDURAL POSTURE: Appellant Masons sought review of the judgment of the trial court ( Kentucky ), which granted appellee Masons' motion for an injunction prohibiting appellants from establishing or conducting lodges of the Masons with a similar name to appellees.

OVERVIEW: The trial court enjoined appellants from establishing or conducting lodges of
Masons within the state of Kentucky wherein the words "Free and Accepted Masons," or the words "Masonic Lodge," or the word "mason" or a colorable imitation thereof was used in any manner. Appellants sought review of the judgment ordering the injunction. On appeal, the court affirmed the judgment of the trial court. The court found that appellees proved that the appellants' name and appellees' name were so strikingly similar so as to deceive the public and induce persons to join one institution when they intended to join the other. In addition, appellees established a legitimate Mason lineage and continuos operation of their lodge. Appellants only managed to establish an origin and lineage that were at most of dubious legitimacy. The injunction granted by the trial court did not in any way prevent appellants' accomplishment of the same objectives under a name or designation that did not infringe upon the name and rights of appellees.

OUTCOME: The court affirmed the judgment of the trial court, which granted appellees' motion for an injunction prohibiting appellants from establishing or conducting lodges of the
Masons with a similar name to appellees.

OPINION



 
[*47]  STANLEY, Commissioner.

On the complaint of the appellees, Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge
Free & Accepted Masons of Kentucky, the trial court enjoined the appellant, International Free and Accepted Modern Masons, and its representatives by name and all others

"(1) From establishing or conducting lodges of
Masons or auxiliaries thereof within the State of Kentucky wherein the words 'Free and Accepted Masons,' or the words 'Masonic Lodge,' or the word 'Mason' or a colorable imitation thereof are used in any manner whatsoever;

"(2) Within the State of Kentucky, from holding forth or stating that the defendant,
International Free and Accepted Modern Masons, is a grand lodge of Free and Accepted Modern Masons, is a grand lodge of Free and Accepted Masons and from using or employing rituals, ceremonies, names, insignia, emblems, badges, symbols, signs, paraphernalia, or designations of an organization of Masons; and from using or attempting to use any of the secret work or formulas of the plaintiff,  [**2]  Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge Free and Accepted Masons of Kentucky, or the subordinate lodges chartered and established under its jurisdiction, and from using or displaying any insignia, emblems, badges, symbols, signs and paraphernalia of the plaintiff Grand  [*48]  Lodge or the subordinate lodges established and chartered by it."

For convenience and brevity, the appellants will hereinafter be referred to as "
International Masons" and the appellees as "Prince Hall Masons."

The case has been and is to be decided under the doctrine of unfair competition, a term which through the development of the law has, in many applications, become a misnomer. The application here is of a fundamental principle of protection from misappropriation or misrepresentation through unprivileged imitation of a name and of emblems and insignia. The right of a fraternal order to this protection is well recognized. Creswill v. Grand Lodge Knights of Pythias, 225 U.S. 246, 32 S. Ct. 822, 56 L. Ed. 1074; Grand Lodge I.B. & P.O. Elks v. Grand Lodge I.B.P.O. Elks of World, 4 Cir., 50 F.2d 860; Nims, Unfair Competition and Trade-Marks (4th Ed.), § 86; 10 C.J.S. Beneficial Associations § 12.  
[**3]  HN1Go%20to%20the%20description%20of%20this%20Headnote.We have a statute imposing a penalty upon any person who willfully wears the badge of Masons or other named organizations without being entitled to wear it. KRS 434.060(2). Here, priority of origin and incorporation in Kentucky and in territorial use, as well as confusion and misrepresentation, are the bases of the exclusive right claimed and adjudged to belong to the appellees, Prince Hall Masons.

As is well known, the order of
Free and Accepted Masons is an ancient and honorable secret fraternity. Its origin is lost in antiquity. The Masonic legend is that it began with the craftsmen at the building of King Solomon's Temple . Documentary rolls and other records, still preserved, of the Fourteenth Century and later centuries prove the establishment and continuity of Masonic lodges at least from such times down to the establishment of the premier Grand Lodge of England in 1717. From that time previously separate lodges became subordinate affiliates of Grand Lodges. All regular grand and subordinate lodges throughout America , directly or indirectly, have sprung from this mother grand lodge.

If more are needed I will pm them.






Edited by Flotown79 - May/04/2010 at 8:56pm

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Palmetto Bug Palmetto Bug wrote:

I have some recent, real-world experience in this area.
 
A man petitioned a lodge in my District. He provided a description of the clandestine body that he was formerly associated with and signed a statement denouncing and renouncing the same. Said statement was forwarded by the lodge to the Grand Secretary. The Grand Master approved - in writing - for the lodge to act on the petition. No contact with the clandestine body was required or expected.
Your input, once again, is invaluble to us.Thumbs%20Up
 Hopefully the OP can use this information and pass it onto his friend.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/04/2010 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by tm274 tm274 wrote:

Originally posted by Palmetto Bug Palmetto Bug wrote:

I have some recent, real-world experience in this area.
 
A man petitioned a lodge in my District. He provided a description of the clandestine body that he was formerly associated with and signed a statement denouncing and renouncing the same. Said statement was forwarded by the lodge to the Grand Secretary. The Grand Master approved - in writing - for the lodge to act on the petition. No contact with the clandestine body was required or expected.
Your input, once again, is invaluble to us.Thumbs%20Up
 Hopefully the OP can use this information and pass it onto his friend.


I don't know why a GL would send a man back to a known clandestine body and expect them to give him assistance in leaving.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 3:33am
As I am a new mm, I hadn't heard of a renounciation form before. As far as his word being good enough, it should be. But, at the same time, I don't know what a bogus lodge might do to try and obtain information on how a regular lodge conducts itself behind close doors. I would just assume some proof that he at least asked for a demit, like a reciept from their secretary that is was submitted, even if it said he was denied because of owed money. To me, the rest of finding out if he would be good for the lodge can be done by the investigation commitee. He was p.o.'d once he found they were bogus, so I'm sure he'll not give them a cent.   If he truly wishes admission then he will bring forth whatever the bogus lodges gives him and submit his petition. If he gets nothing, maybe they have that form for him to fill out. I'm going to research that form for myself. But, I'd still want to protect my lodge as much as possible against any cowan or eavesdroppers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 6:47am

One of my pet peeves is the investigation process and its objective integrity, without cutting corners. This is our safeguard against the unworthy petitioner. If the gentleman meets all the qualifications for membership, and there is an unquestioned confidence in his good character, the actions of a clandestine body should not prevent his progression.  A document from a clandestine group has no "real" value so it cannot actually serve its intent. My GL requires any official document from the clandestine group in order to join one of our lodges. We use a "Healing" process, which also do not agree with. Those documents are not worth the paper they are written on. But at the end of the day, you must follow the guidelines that are set by your GL to ensure there are no glitches on your end.

I agree with PSquared in sentiment, using Masonic terminology in any form along with clandestine is an oxymoron, one negates the other.


Edited by watchman - May/05/2010 at 6:49am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 7:13am
Good points, however, I am curious, and I don't want to bring this off topic so we can start a new thread if need be, but why do you not agree with the healing process? I am not taking sides on it one way or another, I just want to learn more about it. I have never seen it in practice so I don't know that much about it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 7:17am
I guess, in my Masonicaly uneducated opinion, it seems to me that a Legitimate lodge gives legitimacy to the Clandestine Lodge by requiring them to sign him off on paper.  Secondly, if the intent of the initiate is to do nothing more than gain information..then that is for him to live with.  I completely understand the desire to protect the legitimate lodge from these  types but there is really no way to see into a man's heart. 
 
If I do not recognize the lodge as legitimate, then why would i recognize any piece of paper they present as legitimate.  I am confused.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 7:25am
Thanks Flotown, based on this I don't know why Regular Grand Lodges do not use the courts more often to combat illegitimate groups claiming to be Freemasons.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 8:08am
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

Thanks Flotown, based on this I don't know why Regular Grand Lodges do not use the courts more often to combat illegitimate groups claiming to be Freemasons.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 8:19am
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

Thanks Flotown, based on this I don't know why Regular Grand Lodges do not use the courts more often to combat illegitimate groups claiming to be Freemasons.  


One problem is these groups simply change their name. For instance William Banks founder of the Internationals was a member of Modern Free. He was expelled by Modern Free because he refused to follow the rules of the courts and started his own group. Modern Free were ordered to stop using the S&C and he knew this so he added the key to their emblem.

When you have men that simply refuse to follow the decisions of the courts there is really not much we can do. This is one reason I try to assist those that wish to leave these groups.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 8:55am
Originally posted by PSquared PSquared wrote:

I guess, in my Masonicaly uneducated opinion, it seems to me that a Legitimate lodge gives legitimacy to the Clandestine Lodge by requiring them to sign him off on paper.  Secondly, if the intent of the initiate is to do nothing more than gain information..then that is for him to live with.  I completely understand the desire to protect the legitimate lodge from these  types but there is really no way to see into a man's heart. 
 
If I do not recognize the lodge as legitimate, then why would i recognize any piece of paper they present as legitimate.  I am confused.   
 
Again, getting any paperwork from a clandie lodge does not legitmize them in any fashion.  It is needed to be submitted with the petition.  For example, my lodge and grand lodge would not consider these bogus lodges' as masons at all.  But, they would require some written proof from the bogus lodge that the candidate attempted to disassociate himself with them. even though masonically it is not work any more than toilet paper.  Whether it is a refusal to grant a demit or a demit, it just shows that he denounces clandestine masonry and the piece of paper, I guess, is proof that he infromed them in some way or fashion, even though masonically the paper is not work any more than toilet paper.  Once his petition is accepted, nothing else is needed but a good heart and pure intentions and a visit from the investigation commitee.  Whatever report the commitee brings back to the lodge is good enough for me, for I trust the opinions of my brothers. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 9:00am
150MAN, I love that quote in your signature.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 9:10am
Thank you brother.  I think it embodies the responsibility that we take upon ourselves when we think about our obligation as freemasons. 

Edited by 150man - May/05/2010 at 9:31am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 9:41am
 [/QUOTE]
 
Wouldnt the obligation he will take at his new lodge be sufficient enough proof that he will no longer associate with the bogus lodge?
[/QUOTE]
 
     Once he takes his obligation, that definitely is good enough.  But, this proof of denounciaition of membership is wanted or needed to accept his petition, long before the ob. 
     Honestly, we could all give examples of what was done or what could be done, but I for one am comfortable with the requirement.  It is a first line of defense to seperate these men who want to belong to our fraternity, and call themselves freemasons, without going through the process we all went through to become one.  Is he worthy and well recommended? Becoming a freemason is a priviledge to be earned, not a right to be granted.  Trusting a brothers word, to me, is a extremely important part of our fraternity.  It has to be earned!
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 6:37pm
Well, I just recieved a call from the gentleman and he has just recieved a call from the investigation commitee.  He said he asked for and was given a reciept of his request for a demit and he turned that in along with his petition.  The bogus lodge told him he'd still have to pay all his outstanding fees to withdraw from them though.ROTFLLoco.  I told him he should still put an ad in the paper denouncing the illegal activity of this lodge.  Put them on blast!Angry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2010 at 6:54pm
Thanks 150.  Like I said, I have stupid questions.  So what happens then if the guy tires to leave the bogus lodge and can't prove it because the bogus lodge is being an arse about it?
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