Mastermason.com Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Public Masonic Discussions > Masonic Discussion Board
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - F&AM/AF&AM
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

F&AM/AF&AM

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Flotown79 View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Hoover, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 5115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: F&AM/AF&AM
    Posted: June/18/2010 at 8:47am
Has anyone heard of a lodge being AF& AM while the GL is F&AM? Don't lodges follow the GL?

F. E. Thomas III, MPS
Back to Top
CAMB.MASON View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: December/23/2008
Location: cambridge,mass.
Status: Offline
Points: 2051
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAMB.MASON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 9:15am
 in mass. we have both, the grand lodge is AF & AM, but some of the lodges are going back to the F & AM.
I remain Fraternally Yours:

Curator & Historian
Cambridge Masonic Temple Cambridge, Massachusetts



Back to Top
Ashton View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: June/16/2010
Location: Mansfield, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ashton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 9:33am
Going back? One stands for Ancient Free & Accepted Masons, and the other is just Free & Accepted Masons. Did F&AM come first? That seems odd if it did.
 
-Ashton
Back to Top
150man View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/29/2010
Location: Illinois
Status: Offline
Points: 1004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 150man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 10:11am
Originally posted by CAMB.MASON CAMB.MASON wrote:

 in mass. we have both, the grand lodge is AF & AM, but some of the lodges are going back to the F & AM.
 
Are the F & AM lodges declaring themselves moderns and that's the reason?  I didn't know you could change.  I was under the impression that a subordinate lodge had to follow the GL as far as being AF&AM or F&AM?
Pleiades Lodge 478
Illumination Lodge No. 5
Old Chicago York Rite Bodies
Medinah Shriners
Valley of Chicago
Illuminati AMD Council No 495
www.livingstonesmagazine.com




Back to Top
CAMB.MASON View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: December/23/2008
Location: cambridge,mass.
Status: Offline
Points: 2051
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAMB.MASON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 10:29am
  this goes back to the times where we had two GL's, St Johns and St. Andrews, which some had the AF and some the F.  Really no big deal as far as it goes with us, just more of historical/traditional/pride.  There are not many that have the F.
I remain Fraternally Yours:

Curator & Historian
Cambridge Masonic Temple Cambridge, Massachusetts



Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 11:56am
I think that you may find it goes back to before the War of Independence. Back then, your State Grand Lodges were actually Provincial Grand Lodges under the British Grand Lodges. Nowadays in our rush to shorten everthing we forget that things once had proper names that give the clues. For information the proper names are:
 
The Ancient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons under the United Grand Lodge of England (aka UGLE)
The Grand Lodge of Antient Free and Accepted Masons of Scotland (aka GLoS)
 
So I suspect the usage may tell you which Grand Lodge your's was originally under.
 
Mike


Edited by Mike Martin - June/18/2010 at 11:59am
Back to Top
Stuntman98 View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: August/25/2009
Location: Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stuntman98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 12:22pm
There are two jurisdictions which use neither F&AM nor AF&AM: The District of Columbia uses FAAM, and South Carolina uses AFM. Again, these are distinctions without any real difference.
S.S. Sons of Light No.77
P.M. Pride of The Walton No.110
MWPHGL Washington
District No.9

SPAIN MILITARY CONSISTORY #99 AASR,PHA
DDGIT Afghanistan WFOT
Grand Technician WFOT
Back to Top
canuck View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: November/05/2007
Location: Toronto, ON
Status: Offline
Points: 2752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 12:42pm
There was a thread about this somewhere on the forum, but I can't find it.
"Ancient" in the "AF&AM" is not "time" related. "Ancients" were formed by the members of the Grand Lodge of England (in the 18th century), who thought that the Grand Lodge is trying to modernize the craft too much. Hence the titles "Ancients" and "Moderns". They used this particular name just to show that their ritual is "older" and somehow more right then the other, while in fact "Ancients" were created later then the others. When this two Grand Lodges united - we got what we know today as "United Grand Lodge of England". The problem was - during the separation, both Grand Lodges were creating subordinate provincial lodges in the colonies. In the late 18th century, due to the independence, US lodges got completely separate from the English and Scottish lodges. When the two lodges in England united, it had no effect on the US lodges, because they were independent already - so most of them kept their prefixes "AF&AM" or "F&AM"... This is also a reason why the US masonic ritual is completely different then today's English ritual (Emulation), because Emulation was created when the two GL's united.


Edited by canuck - June/18/2010 at 12:43pm
Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

There was a thread about this somewhere on the forum, but I can't find it.
"Ancient" in the "AF&AM" is not "time" related. "Ancients" were formed by the members of the Grand Lodge of England (in the 18th century), who thought that the Grand Lodge is trying to modernize the craft too much. Hence the titles "Ancients" and "Moderns". They used this particular name just to show that their ritual is "older" and somehow more right then the other, while in fact "Ancients" were created later then the others. When this two Grand Lodges united - we got what we know today as "United Grand Lodge of England". The problem was - during the separation, both Grand Lodges were creating subordinate provincial lodges in the colonies. In the late 18th century, due to the independence, US lodges got completely separate from the English and Scottish lodges. When the two lodges in England united, it had no effect on the US lodges, because they were independent already - so most of them kept their prefixes "AF&AM" or "F&AM"... This is also a reason why the US masonic ritual is completely different then today's English ritual (Emulation), because Emulation was created when the two GL's united.
Hi Canuck,
 
Can I just correct some points for you, they are commonly mixed up when people try to paraphrase the development of English Masonry as the "legend" mixes in with the facts.
 
The Antients Grand Lodge was not a split away from the Premier Grand Lodge, it was actually formed by Irish and Scottish Masons who lived in England.
The Antients Grand Lodge claimed a lineage from the mythical Grand Lodge of King Athelstone at York, hence they called themselves Antients and in insult called the Premier Grand Lodge the moderns.
The main difference between the 2 Grand Lodges rested in their treatment of the Royal Arch degree and the fact that the Antients' ritual was based on the Irish form.
In England there are actually more than 20 Rituals used by our Craft Lodges. Many of them are pre-Union and even those that use the 2 main post-Union rituals of Emulation and Sussex all do it differently.
The Emulation and Sussex Rituals are a blend of the main Rituals used by both Grand Lodges, it took several years for representatives from each GL in the Lodge of Promulgation to come up with it.
 
Other than that good stuff
 
Mike
 
 
Back to Top
Flotown79 View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Hoover, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 5115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2010 at 12:53am
I was asking because I thought if a GL was F&AM the lodges were also. 

F. E. Thomas III, MPS
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Online
Points: 6354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2010 at 6:49am
Mike Martin is correct that Ancients were not a "break-a-way" from the Grand Lodge of England.  .......  The Ancients were Scottish & Irish (mostly) Masons from other Lodges who no longer knew how to prove themselves as Freemasons due to Ritual changes by the GL of England about 1733. Probably some non-standard rituals were in use by some GL of England Lodges up until 1733 (????).    ....  The Ancients started forming their own lodges (charters from GL of Scotland ??) out necessity and formed their GL about 1751 in London and the proper name was "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England according to the Old Institutions". Thus, AF&AM or Ancient Free Masons.

the GL of England formed 1717
The GL of Scotland formed 1736
The AF&AM GL (
Atholl Freemasons) formed 1751

Because very little records exist, ALL English, Scottish and Irish Lodges claim
a lineage from the  King Athelstone's meeting of Masons at York; and rightly so.  ....  But each and every Lodge of Freemasons were sovereign unto themselves until the formal formation of Grand Lodges (1700's).

Edited by edwmax - June/19/2010 at 7:00am
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2010 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Because very little records exist, ALL English, Scottish and Irish Lodges claim a lineage from the  King Athelstone's meeting of Masons at York; and rightly so.  
This is a big oops but I think it is something that is in the "legend" of your american "York Rite" (no such thing here in England).
 
The Scots and Irish DEFINITELY do not claim a lineage from the mythical York Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge of England does not claim lineage but it is mentioned in Anderson's Constitution, in his lesson on the history of the Craft, however, he mentions many origins in that lecture.
 
Mike
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1764
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2010 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

 
The Scots and Irish DEFINITELY do not claim a lineage from the mythical [emphasis mine] York Grand Lodge.
 
Mike


Are you familiar with the work Mysteries of York Revealed by Neville Cryer? I have just begun the book but its premises seem to counter any mythical aspect of a Grand Lodge there. If you are familiar with it what do you think of it?
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Online
Points: 6354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/19/2010 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

Because very little records exist, ALL English, Scottish and Irish Lodges claim a lineage from the  King Athelstone's meeting of Masons at York; and rightly so.  
This is a big oops but I think it is something that is in the "legend" of your american "York Rite" (no such thing here in England).
 
The Scots and Irish DEFINITELY do not claim a lineage from the mythical York Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge of England does not claim lineage but it is mentioned in Anderson's Constitution, in his lesson on the history of the Craft, however, he mentions many origins in that lecture.
 
Mike


I'm not sure how much this is "legend" or what the York Rite legend is; but King Athelstone and the meeting of Masons at York about 926 AD is stated in the Regius Manuscript.  Now King Athelstone did under take building of some Castles or first fortification at Cawood and Abbeys.  So there appears some connection with Masons in that day.   ... Looks like there is some truth to this legend.....

ref: Regius Manuscript;  http://www.masonicsites.org/blue/regius2.htm
ref: King Athelstone; http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/athelstan.shtml



"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1764
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2010 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

I was asking because I thought if a GL was F&AM the lodges were also. 


The only thing I can think of, which I think was briefly mentioned before in the thread, is that prior to the union of Antients and Moderns in 1813,  the Moderns Lodges used F&AM while the Antients Lodges used AF&AM, so in any one state there would have been Lodges using both. After the amalgamation, both Lodges came under one Grand Lodge which would have used one of the designations, but Lodges that previously used the other designation may have been allowed to keep that.

Cambridge Mason mentioned that some Lodges in Massachusetts are going back to "F&AM." This is the first I had heard of that. Cambridge, could you PM me and let me know of  any Lodges in Massachusetts you know of that are doing that? I have nothing against it, I am just curious.

Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2010 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Are you familiar with the work Mysteries of York Revealed by Neville Cryer? I have just begun the book but its premises seem to counter any mythical aspect of a Grand Lodge there. If you are familiar with it what do you think of it?
I think he is very good at making Freemasons actually think about what is often bandied about as "wisdom". Unfortunately, this particular work of his has been seized upon by the instigators of the new Grand Lodge of All England as their very own justification.
 
Mike
Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2010 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

I'm not sure how much this is "legend" or what the York Rite legend is; but King Athelstone and the meeting of Masons at York about 926 AD is stated in the Regius Manuscript.  Now King Athelstone did under take building of some Castles or first fortification at Cawood and Abbeys.  So there appears some connection with Masons in that day.   ... Looks like there is some truth to this legend.....
 
Athelstone is obviously real although the dates cause some difficulties but that is probably down to differnces between how things were done then compared to now.
 
However, the famous Royal Charter has never been found which tends to be the biggest flaw in the legend.
 
Mike
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1764
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2010 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

I think he is very good at making Freemasons actually think about what is often bandied about as "wisdom". Unfortunately, this particular work of his has been seized upon by the instigators of the new Grand Lodge of All England as their very own justification.
 
Mike


The fact that Mysteries of York Revealed has been seized upon by a questionable group should not, in and of itself, discredit it. I would be interested in learning from you or anyone else specifics on how the work may be flawed.
Back to Top
edwmax View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: November/06/2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Online
Points: 6354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edwmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2010 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

.................
 
However, the famous Royal Charter has never been found which tends to be the biggest flaw in the legend.
 
Mike


Are you referring to the Charter for the The Premier Grand Lodge at York (Old Grand Lodge at York) meeting early 1700's up until about 1725?    That Charter was destroyed in the War of the Roses.   Copies are preserved in the British Museum.

The "Illustrations of Masonry" by William Preston has a good section for the history of Masonry in Britain & England beginning with the Druids & Romans.  http://arcaneadvisors.com/archives/Preston/book4/b4section_2.htm

It states the following about King Athelstane.  
Quote ..... Edward died in 924, and was succeeded by Athelstane his son, who appointed his brother Edwin, patron of the masons, This prince procured a charter from Athelstane, empowering them to meet annually in communication at York, where the first Grand Lodge of England was formed in 926, at which Edwin presided as Grand Master. Here many old writings were produced, in Greek, Latin, and other languages, from which the constitutions of the English lodges are originally derived.
Athelstane kept his court for some time at York, where he received several embassies from foreign princes, with rich presents of various kinds. He was loved, honored, and admired by all the princes of Europe, who sought his friendship and courted his alliance. He was a mild sovereign, a kind brother, and a true friend. The only blemish which historians find in the whole reign of Athelstane, is the supposed murder of his brother Edwin. This youth, who was distinguished for his virtues, having died two years before his brother, a false report was spread, of his being wrongfully put to death by him. But this is so improbable in itself, so inconsistent with the character of Athelstane, and indeed so slenderly attested, as to be undeserving a place in history.
The activity and princely conduct of Edwin qualified him, in every respect, to preside over so celebrated a body of men as the masons, who were employed under him in repairing and building many churches and superb edifices, which had been destroyed by the ravages of the Danes and other invaders, not only in the city of York, but at Beverley, and other places.
On the death of Edwin, Athelstane undertook in person the direction of the lodges, and the art of masonry was propagated in peace and security under his sanction.  
....



Edited by edwmax - June/20/2010 at 8:28pm
"Until you realize that your viewpoint is incomplete and that's '_' viewpoint is complete, only then can you become teachable in the Mysteries of '_'."





PM of Cairo Lodge 299
Back to Top
droche View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/03/2008
Location: Worcester, Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 1764
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote droche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2010 at 6:20am
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:


Are you referring to the Charter for the The Premier Grand Lodge at York (Old Grand Lodge at York) meeting early 1700's up until about 1725? 


Or are you referring to the charter Athelstan reportedly gave to Edwin in 926?
Back to Top
Mike Martin View Drop Down
Quarryman
Quarryman
Avatar

Joined: March/30/2006
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2010 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by edwmax edwmax wrote:

  That Charter was destroyed in the War of the Roses.   Copies are preserved in the British Museum.

I'm really sorry but the Charter that Athelstane gave to Edwin for the Masons is kept in the same drawer (at the British Museum) as the letter that Albert Pike wrote to Giusseppe Mazzini regarding his vision of the coming three world wars.
 
There is no such document, many have searched for it over the last 300 years. It remains a legendary part of the story of the Craft.
 
Mike
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03
Copyright ©2001-2011 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.