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PHA614419 View Drop Down
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    Posted: July/30/2010 at 11:54am
I AM A MEMBER OF PH F&AM GLORIA LODGE# 89 COLUMBUS, OH  MWPHGL OF OHIO. FIRST OFF I AM A NEWLY RAISED MASTER MASON AND I NOTICED SEEING PHA OR PRINCE HALL AFFILIATED. IS PH AND PHA THE SAME AND IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE WHAT IS IT?
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PH is usually PHO or Compact

PHO = Prince Hall Origin
PHA = Prince Hall Affiliated

The MWPHGL of OH is PHA and is recognized or considered regular by most GL's in the world.  In OH there are at least 2 PHO GL's.  One is named Eureka GL and the other is National GL.  However there are at least 20-30 clandestine groups, in OH, that have styled themselves after regular Masonry.


Edited by Flotown79 - July/30/2010 at 12:12pm

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I KNOW I WAS PART OF ONE OF THEM... INTERNATIONAL F&AM... BUT THAT IS OLD NEWS... I AM HAPPY I LEFTThumbs Up

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khaos16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2010 at 12:37am
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

PH is usually PHO or Compact  This is not necessarily true. 

PHO = Prince Hall Origin
PHA = Prince Hall Affiliated

The MWPHGL of OH is PHA and is recognized or considered regular by most GL's in the world.  In OH there are at least 2 PHO GL's.  One is named Eureka GL and the other is National GL.  However there are at least 20-30 clandestine groups, in OH, that have styled themselves after regular Masonry.

Here in Ga. The lodges under our GL are PH Lodges, the appendant or concordant bodies are PHA.  Its done this way to designate and to show that there is only 1 body of Prince Hall Mason in this state and thats the MWPHGL of GA. the irregular group is referred to as Compact or smooth ashlar. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2010 at 9:13am
I know a few GL's do that. That is why I said usually.

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Originally posted by PHA614419 PHA614419 wrote:

I AM A MEMBER OF PH F&AM GLORIA LODGE# 89 COLUMBUS, OH  MWPHGL OF OHIO. FIRST OFF I AM A NEWLY RAISED MASTER MASON AND I NOTICED SEEING PHA OR PRINCE HALL AFFILIATED. IS PH AND PHA THE SAME AND IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE WHAT IS IT?

There is an inconvenient truth in Prince Hall History that is brutally contested and it rivals a Civil War within the Prince Hall Family. There are two "sects" of Prince Hall Freemasons in the United States. Prince Hall Affiliated (to which you are a member) & Prince Hall Origin (National Compact). As you travel you will hear numerous perspectives on PHO and since you asked, I felt that I would explain. Prince Hall Origin represents all Grand Lodges which are subordinate to the National Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Ancient York Mason. In Ohio the Prince Hall Origin Grand Lodge is the Eureka Grand Lodge F&AAYM.

 

It is important to note that if a Prince Hall Affiliated Mason wishes to trace his lineage back to African Lodge No. 459 of Boston, Massachusetts, that lineage travel through the National Grand Lodge (PHO). The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio was a member of the Most Worshipful National Grand Lodge. The fifth Grand Master of your Grand Lodge was also Past National Grand Master.[1] The National Grand Lodge was established in 1847 by a Convention of the representatives of the following Grand Lodges: African Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, First Independent African Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania and Hiram Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania.[2][3]  Ohio happened to have to Lodges which were subordinate to the former First Independent African Grand Lodge of Ohio as well as Hiram Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania. After the National Grand Lodge formed, First Independent African Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania and Hiram Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania merged and formed the Most Worshipful Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania Free & Accepted Ancient York Masons. This Grand Lodge still exists under the banner of the National Grand Lodge (PHO). When this occurred, other states followed suit. Ohio, which was of the same disposition (lodges subordinate to First Independent of Pa and Hiram Grand Lodge of Pa.) formed the Grand Lodge of Ohio which was renamed to the MW Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio. The Grand Lodge of Ohio declared independence from the National Grand Lodge in 1868. Other Grand Lodges followed suit and thus that created the “Sodality” known as Prince Hall Affiliated. The National Grand Lodge (PHO) continued to exist, and has existed since 1847[4], thus creating two “sects” of Masons that trace their lineage to African Lodge No. 459.  I hope this information will give you a start in researching and understanding the origins of Historical African American Freemasonry in the United States.  I am not asking you to take my word on this, I am only asking you to do your own research and draw conclusions from that.

 

 



[1] Please see http://www.phaohio.org/mwphgloh/histfile.html . It must be noted that many of the writers on Prince Hall Freemasonry either briefly mention the National Grand Lodge in passing or does not mention the National Grand Lodge at all as part of their history.

[2] Woodlin, J. The National Masonic Union 1855, pages 21-23.

[3] Roundtree, A. Phylaxis Session Presentation: The National Compact 2007. The document may be viewed using the following link: http://salori.community.officelive.com/Documents/PHYLAXIS_SESSION_PRESENTATION2007.pdf         It provides good baseline information on the National Grand Lodge.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 11:47am
Do we have to go through this again?  This topic has been discussed time and time again. 

I do like your play on words "It is important to note that if a Prince Hall Affiliated Mason wishes to trace his lineage back to African Lodge No. 459 of Boston, Massachusetts, that lineage travel through the National Grand Lodge (PHO)." While it is true that many PHO Lodges were chartered you failed to mentioned that most left PHO to fall under the wings of regular Masonry.  So yes, if I was to provide the complete history of my lodge I would have to say that it once was a PHO lodge, but in the 1800's she left PHO just like most if not all PHO members in AL did. 

I would even tell how my current GL MWPHGL of AL, is a merger of the Indepentent and PHO GL's from the 1800's.  You see when you merger the history of both is still there but they no longer exist.  In the 1800's PHO stopped existing in AL. That is until those that wanted t keep PHO going created the Olive Branch GL.  :- ) I am not sure when it was created because their website has very little information.

You are attempting to make a point that anyone with a little bit of knowledge would already comprehend. 


Edited by Flotown79 - August/09/2010 at 11:52am

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Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

You are attempting to make a point that anyone with a little bit of knowledge would already comprehend. 
Bro. said he was a newly raised with what I thought was a legitimate question. Many seasoned PHA Masons trace their history to African Lodge No. 459, but either don't know or conveinently leave out the significance of the National Grand Lodge (PHO) in that lineage. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

You are attempting to make a point that anyone with a little bit of knowledge would already comprehend. 
Bro. said he was a newly raised with what I thought was a legitimate question. Many seasoned PHA Masons trace their history to African Lodge No. 459, but either don't know or conveinently leave out the significance of the National Grand Lodge (PHO) in that lineage. 


It was a legitimate question and his question was answered. 

...and you conveniently leave out the fact that most, if not all, PHO lodges left PHO. 



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Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:


I would even tell how my current GL MWPHGL of AL, is a merger of the Indepentent and PHO GL's from the 1800's.  You see when you merger the history of both is still there but they no longer exist. 

Bro. Flo,
 
I wanted to state that the histories of the Independent Grand Lodge as well as the Compact Grand Lodge, which merged to form your Grand Lodge, trace their lineage to AL 459 THROUGH the National Grand Lodge.
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I did not see the other post of the Bro. from Columbus. He is a convert. Okay I got it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang=EN>I would even tell how my current GL MWPHGL of AL, is a merger of the Indepentent and PHO GL's from the 1800's.  You see when you merger the history of both is still there but they no longer exist. </SPAN>


Bro. Flo,
 

I wanted to state that the histories of the Independent Grand Lodge as well as the Compact Grand Lodge, which merged to form your Grand Lodge, trace their lineage to AL 459 THROUGH the National Grand Lodge.


When PHO stopped, it stopped. I have already stated that my lodge's founding began in PHO and she is now #12 for the MWPHGL of AL.   When she left in the 1800's she was no longer PHO. Yes PHO is part of her history just like the Ancient and Moderns will always be a part of the UGLE's history. But it is just that. It is history. If members of the UGLE get upset and decide to "recreate" the Modern GL, they can not lay claim that the UGLE traces to them.   


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Bro. Flo.
 
The National Grand Lodge (PHO) never ceased to exist. The NGL has been in continuous existence since 1847. Please tell me when the NGL (PHO) ceased to exist and please cite a primary source of reference.
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I believe you might be considered clandestine .Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Bro. Flo.
 
The National Grand Lodge (PHO) never ceased to exist. The NGL has been in continuous existence since 1847. Please tell me when the NGL (PHO) ceased to exist and please cite a primary source of reference.


I believe we have discussed that topic many times on this forum.  If not mistaken you were involved in the discussion.  We will not go down that road again. 

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Originally posted by Mr Bigs Mr Bigs wrote:

I believe you might be considered clandestine .Cry
Yeah I know. I clandestined is in the eye of the beholder.
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Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

[QUOTE=bsidepro465]Bro. Flo.
 
The National Grand Lodge (PHO) never ceased to exist. The NGL has been in continuous existence since 1847. Please tell me when the NGL (PHO) ceased to exist and please cite a primary source of reference.


I believe we have discussed that topic many times on this forum.  If not mistaken you were involved in the discussion.  We will not go down that road again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

[QUOTE=bsidepro465]Bro. Flo.
 
The National Grand Lodge (PHO) never ceased to exist. The NGL has been in continuous existence since 1847. Please tell me when the NGL (PHO) ceased to exist and please cite a primary source of reference.


I believe we have discussed that topic many times on this forum.  If not mistaken you were involved in the discussion.  We will not go down that road again. 


...and they say PHA and PHO members can't every agree. Big smile

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Glitch alert!!!
 
the rest should have read you did not supply a reference then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Glitch alert!!!
 

the rest should have read you did not supply a reference then.


I think the reference has been given many times. I know it has. Feel free to look around. I know it is in the PHA section and one or two topics are in the General area.

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Come on with this must go thru the ngl poo-poo that roundtree created, this debate has gotten old, and even though the question came from a newer member we must put an end to this there are 2 PH groups, There is only 1 Legitimate body of Prince Hall Masons and the other so called body are COMPACT, that way there will be no confusion. no need to ask for sources, because that is according to the Regular masonic world. FAAYM is an irregular affiliation which is deemed clandestine by constitution to most regular GLs. Bsidepro your masonic god put out a book to help you all out but yet he has not moved for his gl to consider you all as masons... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 4:43pm
Since Bro Roundtree is not a member of this forum, I think it is best that we refer to him as Bro Roundtree or Mr. Roundtree.

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Originally posted by khaos16 khaos16 wrote:

Come on with this must go thru the ngl poo-poo that roundtree created, this debate has gotten old, and even though the question came from a newer member we must put an end to this there are 2 PH groups, There is only 1 Legitimate body of Prince Hall Masons and the other so called body are COMPACT, that way there will be no confusion. no need to ask for sources, because that is according to the Regular masonic world. FAAYM is an irregular affiliation which is deemed clandestine by constitution to most regular GLs. Bsidepro your masonic god put out a book to help you all out but yet he has not moved for his gl to consider you all as masons... 
Bro. khaos
You already know that what has been researched by Roundtree is the TRUTH. On our other forums, some of the most esteemed Masonic Scholars have not presented any documented evidence to refute his research. All that has ben presented is conjecture. The National Grand Lodge And Prince Hall Freemasonry: The Untold Truth (ISBN: 978-0-9772385-2-1) is out and it will be interesting to see what the Phylaxis Society and Blue-Lite will PUBLISH in light of the book's release. The National Compact always receives blame for mis-leading people to join National Comact Grand Lodges, but PHA also mis-leads in not telling the COMPLETE history of Prince Hall Freemasonry in the United States of America. I just want to inspire Bros. like the brother who created this thread that Prince Hall Freemasonic history is more complex than he would be LED to beLIEve.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 8:22am
Documents are and have been presented on Blue-Lite.  It has also been asked of Bro. Roundtree that if he believes PHO is regular why has he not joined it or attempted to get his GL to recognize her.   I have yet to see him answer those two questions which I think are important (it is possible he has answered those I have just not seen the response)

Have you every asked him why he wont join y'all?


Edited by Flotown79 - August/10/2010 at 8:40am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 11:46am
In this new book will there be any firsthand documentation that gives unrefutable proof that prior to the meeting that formed the national compact group, any Grand lodge or subordinate lodge discussed the formation in open communication? Or was this merely the concoction of a few Masons gone rogue. Will there be evidence that this group was formed any different than those groups formed by John G. Jones and William Banks? If so, Bro. Roundtree just might have a leg to stand on, in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khaos16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by khaos16 khaos16 wrote:

Come on with this must go thru the ngl poo-poo that roundtree created, this debate has gotten old, and even though the question came from a newer member we must put an end to this there are 2 PH groups, There is only 1 Legitimate body of Prince Hall Masons and the other so called body are COMPACT, that way there will be no confusion. no need to ask for sources, because that is according to the Regular masonic world. FAAYM is an irregular affiliation which is deemed clandestine by constitution to most regular GLs. Bsidepro your masonic god put out a book to help you all out but yet he has not moved for his gl to consider you all as masons... 
Bro. khaos
You already know that what has been researched by Roundtree is the TRUTH. On our other forums, some of the most esteemed Masonic Scholars have not presented any documented evidence to refute his research. All that has ben presented is conjecture. The National Grand Lodge And Prince Hall Freemasonry: The Untold Truth (ISBN: 978-0-9772385-2-1) is out and it will be interesting to see what the Phylaxis Society and Blue-Lite will PUBLISH in light of the book's release. The National Compact always receives blame for mis-leading people to join National Comact Grand Lodges, but PHA also mis-leads in not telling the COMPLETE history of Prince Hall Freemasonry in the United States of America. I just want to inspire Bros. like the brother who created this thread that Prince Hall Freemasonic history is more complex than he would be LED to beLIEve.
 

 

Belcher you believe anything that will help validate the compact, its not about selling books, and what truth does he have that the brothers 200 years ago do not have, now if he went back and spoke to those brothers to get the info 1st hand then I say its truth but being that his info came from iowa and not from the States that he wrote about its not all TRUTH as you call it. Prince hall masons in the past all left the compact for a reason, Matthews revived it and his very own GL fell....hmmm i wonder why would the ngl saviors gl not be kept alive??? seriously, that book will do no more for the compact than give yall a false sense of hope.   

@ Flo Mr. Roundtree has not answered the question he dodged by saying he will not violate his GL constitution.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 1:05pm

Nelson,

Relax Brother you do not want t get your bloodpressure up. I reiterate that for years history has been written with a cookie cutter approach with regards to the history of the NGL. That history, mainly perpetuated by the mess Grimshaw left, has been parroted so long that it was believed. Now that it has been proven that the NGL never shutdown, the song and dance & dodging has begun. The history was sold to the UGLE with the NGL parts left out. So when some of the mainstream read the book, it will by like Ricky Recardo. "Lucy, you have some splanning to do" 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 1:07pm
Bsidepro465, have you every asked Bro Roundtree why he wont leave PHA and join PHO?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Bsidepro465, have you every asked Bro Roundtree why he wont leave PHA and join PHO?
No need to. I believe in "Free will and accord".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Bsidepro465, have you every asked Bro Roundtree why he wont leave PHA and join PHO?
No need to. I believe in "Free will and accord".


Interesting.  While I agree with free will, I find it odd that someone who "fights" for PHO refuses to join it himself.  I am sure the a PHO GL would welcome him with open arms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Bsidepro465, have you every asked Bro Roundtree why he wont leave PHA and join PHO?
No need to. I believe in "Free will and accord".


Interesting.  While I agree with free will, I find it odd that someone who "fights" for PHO refuses to join it himself.  I am sure the a PHO GL would welcome him with open arms.
So are you saying that one must pick a side to tell the truth about PH Freemasonry? Is the truth different dependent upon which side you are on? If I healed PHA would the truth be different? Don't answer that last question... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Bsidepro465, have you every asked Bro Roundtree why he wont leave PHA and join PHO?
No need to. I believe in "Free will and accord".


Interesting.  While I agree with free will, I find it odd that someone who "fights" for PHO refuses to join it himself.  I am sure the a PHO GL would welcome him with open arms.
So are you saying that one must pick a side to tell the truth about PH Freemasonry? Is the truth different dependent upon which side you are on? If I healed PHA would the truth be different? Don't answer that last question... LOL


I am saying what I said and I stated nothing about picking sides.  I am willing to join any regular GL, are you?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 430 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2010 at 9:55pm
bsidepro, you have to admit that Flotown has a good point. Bro. Roundtree's research and analysis seems in vain in that if it presents PHO in a positive and, in turn, legitimate light, then why the reluctance to argue the recognition of the NGL?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khaos16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 12:31am
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Nelson,

Relax Brother you do not want t get your bloodpressure up. I reiterate that for years history has been written with a cookie cutter approach with regards to the history of the NGL. That history, mainly perpetuated by the mess Grimshaw left, has been parroted so long that it was believed. Now that it has been proven that the NGL never shutdown, the song and dance & dodging has begun. The history was sold to the UGLE with the NGL parts left out. So when some of the mainstream read the book, it will by like Ricky Recardo. "Lucy, you have some splanning to do" 

The reason why the ngl was written out of history is because the members during that time realized what a mistake it was and seems very purposeless today. Look at the demographic, There is aPHGL in nearly every state, all agree that the NGL existed and leaders during that time spoke against it and said that They know of no such body as a national compact when it was agreed to have cease existence, now look at the compact less than 30 gls some hanging on by a thread. your very own gl barely 600 members in this large state.  Ga and Sc supposedly have the largest compact population. The UGLE knows about the ngl thats why they denied recognition to them...duh.when you teach compact history do you leave out the fact that there is no compact Gl in Mass. Isn't that where the compact began??? Belcher stop trying to gain pity by spreading this Untold Truth gibberish on these forums. The only way you or any Compact or FAAYM member can become regular is thru either the MS Gl of that state or the PHGL.  

LAstly just because someone put so-called Untold Truth into a book does not mean it is the truth, by saying its the untold truth, that means for 200 years everything we learned was a lie, until he came along to set us straight. 

Have a GREAT day Belcher 


Edited by khaos16 - August/11/2010 at 12:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 7:35am
Originally posted by khaos16 khaos16 wrote:

[QUOTE=bsidepro465]
 
My responses will be in BLUE
The reason why the ngl was written out of history is because the members during that time realized what a mistake it was and seems very purposeless today.That is where you show novice skills as far as masonic research. I good deal of the literature on PH History was written in the 20th century by authors who were trying to spin the NGL out to prove legitimacy to the mainstream.  Look at the demographic, There is aPHGL in nearly every state, all agree that the NGL existed and leaders during that time spoke against it and said that They know of no such body as a national compact when it was agreed to have cease existence Please cite your sources that stae this. I would love to see this in the Phylaxis Magazine or Beyond The Lite or some other publication. When are the esteemed PHA Scholars going to ginuinely address these issue with scholarly rebuttal and not emotional rants. Nelson get the ball rolling and do some independent reseach, now look at the compact less than 30 gls some hanging on by a thread. your very own gl barely 600 members in this large state.  Ga and Sc supposedly have the largest compact population. The UGLE knows about the ngl thats why they denied recognition to them Did they decarle them irregular? What was the response?...duh.when you teach compact history do you leave out the fact that there is no compact Gl in Mass. Isn't that where the compact began??? Belcher stop trying to gain pity by spreading this Untold Truth gibberish "Really?"on these forums. The only way you or any Compact or FAAYM member can become regular is thru either the MS Gl of that state or the PHGL. Regularity is determined by the regulator and history as shown that it is a politcal tool used for division and PH Freemasonry is and has been divided since.

LAstly just because someone put so-called Untold Truth into a book does not mean it is the truth Please cite references that proves it untrue. BTW have you read the book, by saying its the untold truth, that means for 200 years everything we learned was a lie, until he came along to set us straight.Yeah you have not read it. I get it 

Have a GREAT day Belcher 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khaos16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 12:24pm
No sources needed to verify what my opinions are. So what you are saying is the reason why hardly anyone knew of the NGL was because PH scholars wrote them out of history?? So you mean to tell me the almighty National Grand Lodge let some little ole states write them out of existence. Be for real. There is no higher authority than the GL, so there was no need to SPIN the NGL out to prove anything, those GLs either merged or severed ties from the big grand lodge on wheels. Then by whatever authority claimed by the ngl they set up Gls in those very same states where the original compact gl already severed its ties to the ngl. 

Regularity may be a political tool, but PH freemasonry is not divided, it is very well intact. Now compact masonry on  the other hand which has been piggy backing off of PH Masonry may claim there is a divide, that is why the term NON-PH masons is used when referring to the compact and other bogus bodies.

The UGLE response was that they do not wish to recognize more than 2 Gls per territory. They normally would not recognize 2. They also said if the 2 regular Gls in the state choose to recognize you then they will take it under consideration, but most likely will not recognize a 3rd. Which was a nice was of saying NO. 

UNITED GRAND LODGE OF ENGLAND FREE MASONS HALL

Grand Secretary's Office

Great Queen St., London, W.C.

17th June, 1913

Dear Sir and Brother:
I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 4th of JUNE instant, and assure you that your remarks in reference to this Grand Lodge are highly appreciated.
You are perfectly correct in stating that the year 1784 a Warrant for a Private Lodge to be called "The African" Lodge was granted by the Grand Lodge of England to Bro. Prince Hall and others to meet at Boston, Mass.
It has been a long time since we heard from this Lodge, but we note with pleasure the remarkable progress you have made, and hope you will continue, as the above shows that your Lodge is a direct "Offspring" of the Grand Lodge of England.
With Fraternal Regards,
I am, yours faithfully and freternally,
E. LETCHWORTH, Grand Secretary
  
 As you will note in 1913 the UGLE never addressed the NGL's request for recognition. Instead they acknowledged the issuance of the Warrant to Lodge No. 459. The following is is the most recent response for recognition of the NGL of which you speak, again it is very cordial 
 
Dear Sir,

Thank you for your enquiry of today.  I have already answered your
question in my e-mails to you of 1 and 2 May.   

The Most Worshipful National Grand Lodge (Compact) applied to this
United Grand Lodge for recognition in April of this year.  There has
been some further correspondence between us as there are certain
questions which we need answers to.

In all honesty, it is most unlikely that the National Grand Lodge will
be granted recognition.  We already recognise two Grand Lodges within
most of the States in the USA
 and it is not our normal policy to
recognise two or more Grand Lodges in any one particular area, State or
country unless with the agreement of the Grand Lodge we already
recognise in that area, State or country.

Yours faithfully,

Peter Roberts,
External Relations Adviser,
for Grand Chancellor
  


Lastly I have not and more than likely will not purchase the book you honor like the bible. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 1:00pm
What do you think the response if your GL applied in 1913? Do you have the recent reply letter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khaos16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 4:07pm
Was there a 3rd letter? and currently if My Gl would have sent an inquiry for recognition it might be declined until the GL of Ga and PHGL of Ga have mutual recognition as per the UGLE standard.

Now being that your GL CANNOT request recognition from the UGLE what will you all teach your members about regularity and recognition of the compact? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 7:43pm
Recognition does not concern me. Presenting accurate history does. If the history has integrity and the process for granting recognition has integrity, that process will hopefully take care of itself. We'll see over time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLHSMITH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2010 at 7:47pm
When is it all said and done, this will comtinue to be a tpoic for years to come. I dont see the PHA GM's doing any recognizing anytime soon of PHO. I will always applaud the NGL for its initial motives and purpose for establishment. It could hardly ever be "written" out of history. I met Roundtree at Phylaxis here in Pine Bluff, AR back in March. I will admit tho, I used to think that he would possibly be a spokeman for PHO to PHA GL of Wash DC. 
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I have no problem with being part of the NGL which is the "uncle in backroom that no one see----The Movie Soul Food" Eventually history shows its face.
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lol @ soul food movie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Bigs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/12/2010 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

I have no problem with being part of the NGL which is the "uncle in backroom that no one see----The Movie Soul Food" Eventually history shows its face.
Let's hope that unseen uncle comes bearing gifts.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khaos16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/12/2010 at 7:02pm
Belcher Good joke...

History integrity, not concerned with recognition, really sounds like you are very concerned with recognition, the way you keep talking like there is a top secret document that would make the ngl recognized by the regular masonic world. the book is out and nothing has changed. Your Gl still doesnt know where it came from and the ngl still serves no purpose today. now that we got that out the way, why continue to ask the UGLE for recognition if you aren't recognized here at home? Earlier you spoke on a divide in PH masonry, what are you doing to close that "DIVIDE"? 
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Please do for give me for offering an observation...

bsidepro465: if you are not looking for validity or recoginizition of your Lodge then why are you giving the hard sell on what you believe is the truth. It is quite obvious that the PHA Brothers do not see it the way you do and I doubt very seriously that you or Mr. Roundtree will either. From an outsider, it seems to me that you are now beating a dead horse and not getting anything accomplished. You will just have to face facts that the PHA Brothers ( Main stream included)  are not gonna see you as a regular Brother as long as you are PHO and F&AAYM. You are more than entitled to your opinions and beliefs but you are not gonna change the minds of ones who are not in your Lodges.
I mean no disrespect, just the views of an outsider looking in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2010 at 7:45am
Originally posted by khaos16 khaos16 wrote:

Belcher Good joke...

History integrity, not concerned with recognition, really sounds like you are very concerned with recognition, the way you keep talking like there is a top secret document that would make the ngl recognized by the regular masonic world. the book is out and nothing has changed. Your Gl still doesnt know where it came from and the ngl still serves no purpose today. now that we got that out the way, why continue to ask the UGLE for recognition if you aren't recognized here at home? Earlier you spoke on a divide in PH masonry, what are you doing to close that "DIVIDE"? 
 
Again I am not concern with recognition. Recognition should have some degree of integrity. 200 years and no complete PHA recognition demonstrates otherwise. As far as PHO/recognition that is act of futility. I would like to focus on discussing PH history that has not been well documented. As far as closing the divide, I cannot see it until there is a mutual respect for history and each other.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsidepro465 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2010 at 7:59am
Originally posted by fireman99 fireman99 wrote:

Please do for give me for offering an observation...

bsidepro465: if you are not looking for validity or recoginizition of your Lodge then why are you giving the hard sell on what you believe is the truth. It is quite obvious that the PHA Brothers do not see it the way you do and I doubt very seriously that you or Mr. Roundtree will either. From an outsider, it seems to me that you are now beating a dead horse and not getting anything accomplished. You will just have to face facts that the PHA Brothers ( Main stream included)  are not gonna see you as a regular Brother as long as you are PHO and F&AAYM. You are more than entitled to your opinions and beliefs but you are not gonna change the minds of ones who are not in your Lodges.
I mean no disrespect, just the views of an outsider looking in.
 
fireman99: you are indeed correct and I am beating a dead horse but when a thread is started with the following quote or something like this:
 
"I AM A MEMBER OF PH F&AM GLORIA LODGE# 89 COLUMBUS, OH  MWPHGL OF OHIO. FIRST OFF I AM A NEWLY RAISED MASTER MASON AND I NOTICED SEEING PHA OR PRINCE HALL AFFILIATED. IS PH AND PHA THE SAME AND IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE WHAT IS IT?"
 
It seems to me that he has not been informed and I know if the PHA side tells the story, it would be one sided. 
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You are on the record.....in OH PHO/F&AAYM is considered irregular...only PHA is recognized. PHO may have some of the same lineage as PHA...I do not know, I am not PHA.... but somewhere along the lines there has been a split and and the ones that went PHO are not considered regular in MS/PHA Lodges, just like some have started as MS Lodges but decided to deviate from what is accepted and they are no longer considered regular but they may have been I,P,& R in a regular Lodge...they used to be regular but are now considered irregular or dare I say clandestine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2010 at 9:12am
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Again I am not concern with recognition. Recognition should have some degree of integrity. 200 years and no complete PHA recognition demonstrates otherwise. As far as PHO/recognition that is act of futility. I would like to focus on discussing PH history that has not been well documented. As far as closing the divide, I cannot see it until there is a mutual respect for history and each other.
 


There is not 100% with recognition within PHA either.  Even with the "MS" GL's they don't have 100% recognition.

You say 200 years........ well 200 years and not all PHA GL recognize all "MS" or the Mother GL's.  All this time and PHO is still not recognized (except by the Internationals and Scottish Rite GL's)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2010 at 9:14am
Originally posted by bsidepro465 bsidepro465 wrote:

Originally posted by fireman99 fireman99 wrote:

Please do for give me for offering an observation...

bsidepro465: if you are not looking for validity or recoginizition of your Lodge then why are you giving the hard sell on what you believe is the truth. It is quite obvious that the PHA Brothers do not see it the way you do and I doubt very seriously that you or Mr. Roundtree will either. From an outsider, it seems to me that you are now beating a dead horse and not getting anything accomplished. You will just have to face facts that the PHA Brothers ( Main stream included)  are not gonna see you as a regular Brother as long as you are PHO and F&AAYM. You are more than entitled to your opinions and beliefs but you are not gonna change the minds of ones who are not in your Lodges.
I mean no disrespect, just the views of an outsider looking in.
 
fireman99: you are indeed correct and I am beating a dead horse but when a thread is started with the following quote or something like this:
 
"I AM A MEMBER OF PH F&AM GLORIA LODGE# 89 COLUMBUS, OH  MWPHGL OF OHIO. FIRST OFF I AM A NEWLY RAISED MASTER MASON AND I NOTICED SEEING PHA OR PRINCE HALL AFFILIATED. IS PH AND PHA THE SAME AND IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE WHAT IS IT?"
 
It seems to me that he has not been informed and I know if the PHA side tells the story, it would be one sided. 


Show me where anyone has told a one sided story on this post in reference to the original question. 






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