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Flotown79 View Drop Down
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    Posted: April/04/2011 at 12:55pm
Does anyone have the history of the GL of Romania?  (Not the National GL of Romania)

F. E. Thomas III, MPS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2011 at 3:29pm
http://www.mlnur.org/history_en.htm - this is from the irregular (National) GL, but up to 1990 the history is the same for both (the creation of the irregular happens after that).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2011 at 4:00pm
It does not mentioned where their original lodges came from.  Do you know?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2011 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

http://www.mlnur.org/history_en.htm - this is from the irregular (National) GL, but up to 1990 the history is the same for both (the creation of the irregular happens after that).
Strange that you say the National GL of Romania is irregular as it is the one recognised by the United GL of England
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2011 at 5:57pm
I think there are about 4 or 6 GL in that country.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2011 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

http://www.mlnur.org/history_en.htm - this is from the irregular (National) GL, but up to 1990 the history is the same for both (the creation of the irregular happens after that).
Strange that you say the National GL of Romania is irregular as it is the one recognised by the United GL of England

Sorry - this is from the "United National Grand Lodge" - which is irregular.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2011 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

It does not mentioned where their original lodges came from.  Do you know?

Should be from the Austrian Lodges, since the country was under Habsburg rule at that time. However, I am not sure, I'll check.


Edited by canuck - April/04/2011 at 8:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 10:40am
So I am correct in saying the United National GL of Romania and the National GL of Romania are not the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 10:56am
They are 2 different things.
 
The United National GL of Romania http://unglr130.blogspot.com/
 
National GL of Romania http://www.mlnr.ro/index
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 11:05am
It appears there are multiple National GL of Romania groups out there.
 
From the United National GL of Romania website:
 
March 1996 brought other 12 Transylvanian Lodges under our jurisdiction. At the same date, the members of our Grand Lodges voted in favour of adding the word UNITED, in the official name of the Grand Lodge. So, from that moment, the National Grand Lodge of Romania was known as the United National Grand Lodge of Romania.
 
From Wikipedia:
 
Romanian Freemasons in exile continued their activity until the 1989 revolution, after which Freemasonry returned to the country. The National Grand Lodge of Romania (Marea Lojă Naţională a României), which brought together three Lodges, was established in 1993; the Grand Lodge of Romania (Marea Lojă a României), uniting ten Lodges, came into being in 2003. Four more Masonic groups are active: another National Grand Lodge of Romania (Marea Lojă Naţională din România), the National United Grand Lodge of Romania (Marea Lojă Naţională Unită din România), the Feminine Grand Lodge of Romania (Marea Lojă Feminină a României) and the Grand Orient of Romania (Marele Orient al României).
 
Seems to be a little confusing.
 
Marea Lojă Naţională din România was the National GL of Romania and became the United National GL of Romania in 1996.
 
There is a current group called MAREA LOJĂ NAŢIONALĂ DIN ROMÂNIA which is also the National GL of Romania, but is a completely different group from the first. The first is recgonized by the UGLE and most US GLs.
 
Check this for the history of the one I think you are looking for: http://unglr130.blogspot.com/2010/08/history-of-grand-lodge.html
 


Edited by jaya - April/06/2011 at 11:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 11:57am
That is the version that the non-recognized lodge is spreading... the same was the case in Bulgaria, Serbia and all over the region.
In reality - usually when one GM doesn't want to leave, or his successor is not to his liking, they try to hold on to power and in most cases - the lodge splits in two.
The only regular Grand Lodge in Romania is the National Grand Lodge. United Grand Lodge is a non-recognized masonic body that has no masonic authority. No matter what they say.
Bulgaria was even a more interesting case - where the previous GM kept the legal papers for the registration of the organization, so the regular masonic body had to register again in the courts under a different name. In their case, the Grand Lodge that was formed in 1997, still exists today, but they lost their recognition in 2001, and a newly formed GL was recognized as the true masonic body in the country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 12:45pm
ROMANIA
The National Grand Lodge of Romania has informed us that a group of Masons expelled from the United National Grand Lodge of Romania, which itself is not recognized, have formed an association called National Grand Lodge Romania 1880. This group is in no way connected to, or sanctioned by the National Grand Lodge of Romania, which is the only Grand Lodge there that meets the standards for recognition.

http://www.recognitioncommission.org/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 1:24pm
Has the Nationl GL been the only one ever recognized as being regular?

F. E. Thomas III, MPS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 2:17pm
Romania
An organization has emerged in Romania calling itself the Confederation of Grand Lodges of Romania. This group is composed of the United National Grand Lodge of Romania, headed by Petru Stetiu; and the Grand Lodge of Romania, headed by Cornel Visoianu. A third Grand Lodge is expected to join soon. None of these Masonic organizations have been determined to meet the standards for recognition, and this is considered to be an irregular organization. The National Grand Lodge of Romania, with M.W. Bro. Eugen-Ovidiu Chirovic as the Grand Master, is the only Grand Lodge in Romania that is considered to meet the standards for recognition. The Grand Secretary is R.W. Bro. Dan Tanasie, and the address of the Grand Lodge is: Sala Palaatului – 28 ion Campineanu Str., Et. 2, Sect 1, 010039 Bucharest, Romania.

http://www.recognitioncommission.org/2005/03/28/february-2005-report/

I do not like to site Wikipedia, but other information about the history of Freemasonry in Romania is very limited on the internet.  At the bottom of the Wikipedia site there are links to several Romanian Grand Lodges, but they are in what I guess is Romanian, so I do not have any idea if they have information on the history or not. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry_in_Romania



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 2:20pm
http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Pointers/GLs/romania.html

Edit:  I don't think this is the Recognized one.



Edited by masonic.truths - April/06/2011 at 2:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Has the Nationl GL been the only one ever recognized as being regular?

The problem here, as well as in every Eastern European country is that history of Freemasonry in these countries has to be divided in 4 periods.
1 - First masons from those countries initiated abroad and first lodges formed by foreign jurisdictions (mostly from the Grand Orient of France - which at the time was a legitimate Grand Lodge) - this is usually between early 1700's, up to the end of 19th century.
2 - Formation of first national Grand Lodge - usually at the end of 19th century.
3 - Going dark during the WW2 and the communist regime
4 - Re-introduction of Freemasonry in the country, lodges started by foreign Grand Lodges again - both by regular ones (Italy, Germany, even UGLE) and irregular ones (France, Italy); almost in every case (so far Macedonia is the only exception) the regular GL splits into two or more Grand Lodges, and only one remains regular and recognized; Not always the name of the initial Grand Lodge is the one that keeps regularity and recognition (as is the case in Bulgaria and partially in Serbia).

So it's very difficult to talk about continuity of Freemasonry in these countries from the beginnings to this day. The Grand Lodges that were formed in the 90's, even though they claimed to be the "lawful continuation of the masonic traditions", rarely had any connection with the pre-WW2 lodges. Therefore - even if the name of the regular/recognized GL pre-WW2 is different than the regular/recognized GL today - we can't claim that they are different GL, nor we can claim that they are the same... the history was too complicated, so nothing is that black and white.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 5:25pm
In 1877 what was the recognized GL for this region?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 9:29pm
No Grand Lodge! The GL was formed in 1880.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2011 at 11:00pm
My head is starting to hurt trying to sort through the confusion........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2011 at 10:10am
Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

No Grand Lodge! The GL was formed in 1880.


"Doing this time H.C. Scott was employed by the U.S. Government Department Scott formed an
acquaintance with the Rumanian (Romanian) Diplomat plenipotentiary, who was a Grand Lodge officer.  After proper negotiations and the submission of an approved petition to the Grand Lodge of Romania (Romania) issued charters to King Solomon Lodge of NY #1, Hiram Abiff Lodge #2, Jerusalem Lodge #3, and Joppa Lodge # 4. These lodge was part of the compact of grand lodge of 1877 they assembled in convention, and formed the Most Worshipful Grand Lodge of Washington D. C., and elected M.W. Mingo Sander the first Grand Master the grand lodge was incorporated by an Act of Congress in 1895."

http://johngjonesgrandlodge.org/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2011 at 11:17am
Grand Orient of Romania (formed in 1789). The Grand Orient then turned into the National Grand Lodge in 1880.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flotown79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2011 at 11:22am
Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

Grand Orient of Romania (formed in 1789). The Grand Orient then turned into the National Grand Lodge in 1880.


Was this a regular body?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2011 at 11:57am
It seems like it was. There wasn't an issue with "irregular" bodies in Europe until later in the 19th century.
Now... I don't know how chartering lodges out of their jurisdiction works... especially on a territory where there is a Grand Lodge already...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2011 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

Grand Orient of Romania (formed in 1789). The Grand Orient then turned into the National Grand Lodge in 1880.


Was this a regular body?
 
Be careful not to get trapped into lazy man syndrome regarding Grand Orients.

It is in reality just a language thing and it doesn't actually specify a type of Freemasonry. Although of late (20th Century) it appears to have become almost compulsory to name your new fringe Masonic body Grand Orient of this and that. Grand Orient is French for Grand East which represents a concept as well as the ruling body of an Masonic Obedience

At present amongst the Grand Lodges the UGLE recognises are: the Grande Oriente do Brasil, the Grand Logia Oriental de Colombia, the Grand Orient d'Haiti, the Grand Oriente d Italia, the Grootoosten der Netherlands

Always worth remembering that the Grand Orient de France was started by English Lodges operating in France and it was fully recognised by the UGLE up until its decision to allow Atheists to be made Masons in 1877. This decision led to an internal schism and the formation of the Grande Loge de France in 1894. In 1913 the UGLE assisted with the Grande Loge Nationale Francais.

Just for clarity the Romanian Grand lodge that the UGLE recognises is this one: http://www.mlnr.ro/index and only this one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masonic.truths Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2011 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

Just for clarity the Romanian Grand lodge that the UGLE recognises is this one: http://www.mlnr.ro/index and only this one. 


Mike, do you have access to the records of the UGLE that would indicate what Grand Lodge in Romania was recognized in 1877? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Martin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2011 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by masonic.truths masonic.truths wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Martin Mike Martin wrote:

Just for clarity the Romanian Grand lodge that the UGLE recognises is this one: http://www.mlnr.ro/index and only this one. 


Mike, do you have access to the records of the UGLE that would indicate what Grand Lodge in Romania was recognized in 1877? 
 
No, afraid not I can only tell you about what is current. The only reason I know about the GOdF is because the reasons why it was de-recognised are significant in Masonic history, other than that it is of no actual relevance.
 
You could contact your own Grand Lodge and find out which one it recognised as it could well be the same.
 
However, just having had a quick look at the history of Romania and the fact that it was only founded as a principality in 1859 would make it seem that there is a very good chance that there was no grand lodge there in 1877.


Edited by Mike Martin - April/13/2011 at 4:08am
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1.     “The Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Regular Scottish Rite” who rules over the M.L.N.R. (The National Romanian Grand Lodge), founded in 1993 and which has been recognized in the past by U.G.L.E. The Most Powerful Grand Commander of M.L.N.R. is Br. Costel Iancu.
2.     Another Supreme Council is “The Supreme Council for Romania” (S.C.R.) who rules over the M.L.N.U.R. (The United National Romanian Grand Lodge), whose existence has been confirmed in 1995 and, at the same time, the M.L.N.U.R. is a member of CLIPSAS. This Supreme Council has Andre Szakvary as Sovereign Grand Commander. And here we have a problem:
This grand lodge has just lost a highly important law sue. The decision of the Romanian law system was the confirmation of a Decree issued by the former Grand Master of M.L.N.U.R., Costantin Bartolomeu Savoiu, where he claimed that Br. Szakvary, Manecan and Anghel have been expelled from the Lodge and from the Freemasonry. The Decree has been signed by the former Grand Master in 2008, when he was regularly elected by the Brothers in M.L.N.U.R. The expelled Brothers took this matter in front of the justice, trying to obtain an annulment of this Decree. The justice system, in its wisdom, confirmed the validity of the Decree. So, the expel has been confirmed. Before winning the law sue, Savoiu merged M.L.N.U.R. with a new entity, created by himself in 2010. The new entity is called “The Romanian National Grand Lodge founded in 1880” and, despite its chosen name, it has nothing to do with the history. So, until the moment of a possible appeal and with the condition of winning it, Br. Andre Szakvary (to whom I continue to call a Brother), is not our Brother anymore. If the M.L.N.U.R. does not exist anymore, neither does its Supreme Council.
3.scr-supreme council -romania     .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bdsnook43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2011 at 4:16pm
HSR Price Paul of Romania got his three degrees from and is a member of my lodge here in Tampa.  My instructor was one of his signers, tells a lot of stories about it.  Talks about going over there for Eastern Star in a few years.

http://www.masonicforum.ro/?cmd=displaystory&story_id=150&edition_id=11&format=html


Edit: Didn't realize there we're two GL's.  whoops.  He's clearly a part of the National GL.



Edited by bdsnook43 - April/20/2011 at 4:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2011 at 6:30pm
SCR - welcome to the forum.
As far as this forum is concerned - The National Grand Lodge of Romania is the only regular Grand Lodge in Romania and the only one recognized by UGLE.
The "United National Grand Lodge", unfortunately, was never a recognized masonic body...


Edited by canuck - April/20/2011 at 6:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote young saint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2015 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Flotown79 Flotown79 wrote:

Originally posted by canuck canuck wrote:

No Grand Lodge! The GL was formed in 1880.


"Doing this time H.C. Scott was employed by the U.S. Government Department Scott formed an
acquaintance with the Rumanian (Romanian) Diplomat plenipotentiary, who was a Grand Lodge officer.  After proper negotiations and the submission of an approved petition to the Grand Lodge of Romania (Romania) issued charters to King Solomon Lodge of NY #1, Hiram Abiff Lodge #2, Jerusalem Lodge #3, and Joppa Lodge # 4. These lodge was part of the compact of grand lodge of 1877 they assembled in convention, and formed the Most Worshipful Grand Lodge of Washington D. C., and elected M.W. Mingo Sander the first Grand Master the grand lodge was incorporated by an Act of Congress in 1895."

http://johngjonesgrandlodge.org/

which national GL of romania gave HC Scott these charters. and where is this written because the links do not work?


Edited by young saint - July/28/2015 at 7:29pm
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