Steve Wozniak an Atheist or Agnostic a Freemaon?
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Topic: Steve Wozniak an Atheist or Agnostic a Freemaon?
Posted By: droche
Subject: Steve Wozniak an Atheist or Agnostic a Freemaon?
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 9:00am
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Came across this little tidbit on the internet about celebrities who do not believe in God.: Usually, to become a Freemason you are required to believe in God. Not for the legend behind Apple computers. An exception was made for Steve, who identifies himself as atheist or agnostic. He was initiated into a Freemason in 1979, and continues to be part of the group. Anybody know anything about this? Something doesn't sound right to me. |
Replies:
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 11:16am
| It is possible to believe that man is the supreme architect of the universe. |
Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 2:39pm
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Is it? We as mankind may well be part divine as having come from the supreme... but how could we BE the supreme? ------------- "It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs." |
Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 2:47pm
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After reading my previous post I feel it is grossly off topic of the OP thread, and may create a whole other discussion...lol. to the OP question; i believe it would be easy enough to investigate. Make contact with the lodge and/or the grand lodge he is supposedly a member of... ------------- "It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs." |
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 3:21pm
I suppose it is reliant on how you view architect - and being it is such a subjective thing, to define words, I imagine it opens the flood gates of definition - So I think a person could reasonably say "Man creates cities and infrastructure and space craft, therefore is the "architect" of the Universe. But if you define "architect" as creator, I would certainly agree that man falls far short of that definition. Just some word play I suppose.
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Adept? wrote:Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 3:30pm
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I agree that would make man an earthly achitect. Certainly not the universe! Someone... something...some force...created the universe. Man can not create something out of nothing as the almighty did. ------------- "It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs." |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 5:20pm
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My issues with the statement are 1. It states an exception was made for Steve Wozniak. Can't do that. Belief in a Supreme Being is a Landmark. Can't make exceptions to Landmarks under any circumstances. 2. States that he is an atheist or agnostic. If atheist he should not be able to get in. No exceptions. Or did I miss something somewhere along the way? If agnostic- well, this is where it gets sticky in my view. My understanding is that an agnostic does not deny the existence of a Supreme Being, yet won't come out and say that there definitely is one. My understanding of the Landmark is that one must state their belief in the existence of a Supreme Being; one cannot be on the fence about it. Steve Wozniak is probably a very good man but- what's this about an exception being made for him? Or is that a journalist not knowing what they are talking about? (I know that is rare but it does happen from time to time... )Yes guys, could we keep this on topic?
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Posted By: BAO
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 6:09pm
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From the wonderful world of Wikipedia: "He is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry" rel="nofollow - Freemason , despite not having faith in a supreme being (which is required by Masonic rules). Wozniak describes his impetus for joining the Freemasons as being able to spend more time with his wife at the time, Alice. Alice belonged to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star" rel="nofollow - Order of the Eastern Star , associated with the Masons. Wozniak has said that he quickly rose to a third degree Freemason because, whatever he does, he tries to do well. He was initiated in 1979 at Charity Lodge No. 362 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell,_California" rel="nofollow - Campbell, California , now part of Mt. Moriah Lodge No. 292 in Los Gatos." Although he has called himself "atheist or agnostic", he has also referred to himself as "spiritual on the inside." Personally, I don't see the need to try his religious beliefs. He was asked in whom he puts his trust, and he obviously gave an appropriate answer. |
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/09/2014 at 6:34pm
| Perhaps he is Deist? I do agree though that, even with good intentions, an avowed atheist should not be allowed to join or maintain membership. Agnostic, to me, is acceptable. |
Posted By: Ozzie
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 1:02am
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It does seem to me that the concepts of God coming from the Jewish tradition are very cultural in nature. I am equally happy with the idea of unmanifest Beingness and with the Force. A candidate may be quite clear that Life has meaning or that some Intelligence underlies all existence, without speaking of a God or a volume of sacred law/lore. Thus it seems to me that a candidate who is a Deist rather than a Theist should be just as welcome. So a Deist is not a Theist and therefore is atheist - but hopefully not a stupid atheist. |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 9:35am
A Deist is not an atheist! ... I say this again: A Deist is not an atheist! ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 9:38am
Deism ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/En-uk-deism.ogg" rel="nofollow"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:En-uk-deism.ogg" rel="nofollow - i http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#cite_note-1" rel="nofollow - [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#cite_note-2" rel="nofollow - [2] or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / ) is the belief that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason" rel="nofollow - reason and observation of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature" rel="nofollow - natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a Creator, accompanied with the rejection of authority as a source of religious knowledge.
------------- "It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs." |
Posted By: Anthony660
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 11:53am
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@ Droche-What evidence do you have that an exception was made? ------------- PM Alhambra #322 F&AM West Covina #446 F&AM Pasadena Valley AASR Al Malaikah Shrine AAONMS Cinema Grotto, MOVPER GC Aben Zoar, Order of Alhambra |
Posted By: rchadwic
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 1:43pm
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I note that Mt Moriah Lodge has a web site. www.mtmoriah292.org/ Might I suggest that those interested in this issue go to the source and ask?? ------------- Bob Chadwick Palm Bay #397 Palm Bay, Fla |
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 3:09pm
These statements seem contradictory, but I'm sure it was just a typo.
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Posted By: Ozzie
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 3:47pm
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The term "stupid atheist" appears in an early Masonic writing: " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderson_%28Freemason%29" rel="nofollow - James Anderson 's 1723 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_manuscripts#The_Constitutions_of_the_Moderns" rel="nofollow - Constitutions state that "A Mason is oblig'd by his Tenure, to obey the moral Law, and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist, nor an irreligious Libertine." The point I was making was that while Anderson objects to "stupid atheists", he does not necessarily take the same view of atheists generally. I presume there is no misunderstanding that the word "atheist" is constructed as "a" meaning "not" and "theist". Thus any one who is not a theist is necessarily an a-theist. This includes deists. |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 5:44pm
How do you derive that meaning from Anderson's written statement, you've talked to him? He was referring to ALL atheists as being stupid and did not use any words to indicate 'some' or 'part of' as a way to divide the group. 'Atheists' is All inclusive.
You presume wrong. Atheist has NO BELIEF of a supreme being. They can still have a theology (theist) and most do. ... Deist DO Believe in Supreme Being as Creator of ALL things; but generally do not subscribe to all the rules or theology of the Church. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: Ozzie
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:09pm
It seems that you are better acquainted with Anderson than I am. If "stupid atheist" means that all atheists are stupid, would "amoral Mason" mean that all Masons are amoral? |
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:10pm
Maybe your style of writing is throwing me off. Are you trying to say Deist's and athiests are the same? or are you saying that they are not? In terms of an earlier point, I'd argue that the only bar to entry into the fraternity would be either the athiest or the anti-theist.
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Posted By: Ozzie
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:13pm
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My view is that being a-theist is not a disqualification in itself. Deists are perfectly acceptable to me even if they reject the idea of a specific god. May the Force be with them! Theism is a distinctly cultural approach to spirituality. It is not so common in Buddhist countries. How can Masonry be universal if it is culturally biased? |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 6:18pm
------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: rchadwic
Date Posted: October/10/2014 at 8:35pm
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Hey, guys... Is it my imagination or has this thread been hijacked? I thought the subject was Steve Wozniak... ------------- Bob Chadwick Palm Bay #397 Palm Bay, Fla |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/11/2014 at 7:35am
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Well ... the opening did give an opening for Atheist & Deist ... But I agree it is drifting to the more general discussion than that of Steve Wozniak. Oh by the way ... He is scheduled to be a guest speaker in Tallahassee, Fl. Tickets are $45. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/11/2014 at 11:41am
| What is he going to be speaking about? |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/11/2014 at 2:09pm
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One of the web site is http://www.tallahasseedowntown.com/events/power-forward-speaker-series-steve-wozniak I think it is a motivational speech. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: October/12/2014 at 10:24am
The evidence I have is the statement in the article I cited that an exception was made. As I later noted, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, was that journalists were not always accurate. One of the things I was hoping might come from this thread was whether or not an exception was in fact made and whether the article was accurate. I agree, this thread has drifted off my original intent. I read the article. It seemed strange; we do not make exceptions for atheists, my ritual says no atheist can be made a Mason. I was not sure how agnostics would be handled. The article said we made an exception- that did not make sense to me. The article stated that he was atheist or agnostic. That made no sense to me. In my view one cannot be an atheist or agnostic; he is either one or another. So I was hoping someone might know what was really going on here. |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/12/2014 at 11:59am
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The comment comes from this web site and appears to be an email answer by Steve. http://archive.woz.org/letters/general/72.html Also, Wikipedia credits the comment to an interview by Brian Riley (2012). http://brianriley.us/interview_with_steve_wozniak.html" rel="nofollow - "Interview with Steve Wozniak". In that article I do not find any such statement. But there is these questions and his answers.
In my opinion Steve is a Deist. He has a belief and makes reference to God several times in that interview. ... The Lodge he joined would not have to make any exception for him. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: AaronSawyer
Date Posted: October/12/2014 at 2:27pm
| Ed seems to confirm that Steve is likely a Diest, Agnostic, or perhaps even a secular Christian. Without denying the exitence of God, I think that at least ends any question of whether or not his membership in the Fraternity is fraudulent. |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: October/12/2014 at 3:44pm
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He's not an agnostic. ... An Agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves. He must be shown proof. Agnostic says nothing in this world proves nor disproves the existence of a God. Steve Wozniak used the words 'atheist & agnostic' and then stated he didn't know the difference between them. So he missed used the to words because in the quoted interview above he clearly states that he is spiritual. This is neither an atheist nor an agnostic. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: October/12/2014 at 4:29pm
| Sounds good to me. Someone PM'd me and suggested I go to his lodge's website and ask them. I could have done that, but I thought it was a good topic to generate some discussion here as well as ferreting out the facts. |