HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol
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Topic: HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Subject: HELP!- Need help in interpretation of Mason symbol
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 11:07am
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Question: What is the significance of the Rams Head on the end of a Cornucopia in Freemason symbology?
According to FREEMASONS FOR DUMMIES by Christoper Hodapp, the Cornucopia, or 'horn of plenty' is the Jewel of Office of the Senior Steward or Junior Steward (pages 101-102).
And here in the Boston Public Garden is a beautiful 'neo-classic' monument to Freemason GEORGE ROBERT WHITE (1847-1922) entitled "Cast Your Bread Upon the Waters" Eccles. XI.I - and if you notice at the bottom left and right of the monument are two bronze Cornucopias - with a Rams Head on each end of the cornucopias. (I have sat at this 'Greek' stature eating my lunch for over forty years).
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:George_Robert_White_Memorial,_Boston_Public_Garden_-_view_2.JPG" rel="nofollow - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:George_Robert_White_Memorial,_Boston_Public_Garden_-_view_2.JPG
and here is a close up of those Rams Heads on a Masonic memorial:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldpatterns/4556238157/" rel="nofollow - http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldpatterns/4556238157/
Now, the only mention of a Rams head or Goat Head I have found in reference to Freemasonry are from the Anti-Masons who claim satanic reasons for the Rams head (which is nonsense). But I cannot find a Rams head in any of the dozens of books on Freemasonry I have carefully read.
Again, Could anyone shed any information of the significance of the Rams Head on the end of a Cornucopia??
P.S. The expression on this 1925 monument, "Cast your bread upon the waters" is also found on the last page of A PILGRIM'S PATH by John J. Robinson in his concluding statement.
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Replies:
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 2:55pm
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The Cornucopia, or 'horn of plenty', is a Greek/Roman symbol. It is the symbol of the Goddess Abundantia. The symbol may have Egyptian roots too (???) ... Stop trying to make the symbol into a Masonic symbol and simply look up the history of the symbol itself. The symbolism of the goat or ram is also very old. In many old cultures the goat/ram were symbolic of God or the favorite animal of the Gods. The goat climbed mountains to be near God. The use of the goat as a satanic symbol is of a modern origin since the mid 1700's and popularized by the horror movies of the 20th century. The 'neo-classic' monument is Classic Greek & Roman mythology & details. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 3:08pm
Most likely Artist's 'freedom & interpretation' of detail for the water fountain. The two heads appear to have been outlets for water streams. A ram's head would be natural to the horns. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
GrimoireA3 wrote:Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 3:15pm
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The symbols used in Freemasonry are not unique to Freemasonry. All of the symbols are from Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions (mythology). Many of these also were adopted into Christianity and other modern religions. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: GAmastermason
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 6:27pm
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There is no symbol of a Goat/Ram head at the end of a Cornucopia in Freemasonry. As stated by Illustrious Brother Hodapp's book, the Cornucopia does represent the Senior & Junior Steward of the Blue Lodge, but no Goat/Ram head involved lol. Not sure where you are getting the reference to the Ram/Goat head. ------------- Past Master Past High Priest Past Illustrious Master Past Eminent Commander Past Worthy Patron OES Yaarab Shriner Tall Cedars of Lebanon KYCH |
Posted By: coach
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 7:11pm
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Ram 1) from the Mesopotamian zodiac ordering for "The Laborer" indicating there is no plenty without work. 2) The Ram's Horn was used for Music and Tubal Cain's Brother's name was Jubal (yobel in Hebrew) meaning "Ram's Horn". He was the father of all music and musicians. 3) The Ram was also a replacement for Abraham's son, which was sacrificed in place of him. The placement of the Ram is often a reminder that we should place faith in the Lord and offer to Him Suitable offerings, even when we are showered with plenty. 4) The Lord blew the left horn of a ram (Exodus 19:16) and the right one shall blow once the scattered have been gathered from exile (Isaiah 27:13). Perhaps the sign of the ram is an invitation to those who are worthy. My 2 Cents, Coach N PS - Did I mention that my new book is being published tomorrow? ;-) ------------- Building Builders - Masonic Education! http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/03/2013 at 7:30pm
And, Ecclesiastes 11:1-2 KJV ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/04/2013 at 10:32am
Hi edwmax,
The Cornucopia as a Freemason 'Jewel' for Senior and Junior Steward of a Lodge was clearly explained in the recommended book: FREEMASON FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp (pages 101-102).
That's good info. Haven't come across that detail in any of my extensive research.
That is not entirely accurate. The term 'neo-classic' itself indicates it is not Classic. And there are four valid books on Freemason architecture and art which indicate the Freemason preference for the Neo-classic forms of art for Masonic expression, allegory, metaphor, and design.
I worked at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) for two years (1993-95) an it is nothing but a 'Neo-Classical' example of architecture in both function and design (neither Roman nor Greek). ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/04/2013 at 10:42am
Yes. I have just completed the five books of Moses and am half-way through JOSHUA. I underlined every time the word RAM was used (as opposed to goat or male goat). A few times a Ram's fleece died red was ordered by the Lord as fitting for sacrifice, but usually just a plain Ram was sufficient.
I notice that a Ram had preference in the Bible over other quadrapeds for sacrifice, which led me to ask: Why a Ram? And why are Rams heads on the bottom of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial to a Brother Freemason???
No, but please do. I will put it on my reading list. Thanks again!!! ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: coach
Date Posted: June/04/2013 at 11:30am
I'm glad that my post was nurturing. You can read more about my book release here: http://www.coach.net/PR_BR_01.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.coach.net/PR_BR_01.htm ------------- Building Builders - Masonic Education! http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/04/2013 at 1:37pm
SO! I didn't say otherwise ... but the symbolism was borrowed from other religions and legends; and has the SAME allegorical meaning.
Then I question your 'extensive research' ... This info is easily found with proper method of research.
LOOK past the forest and see the trees & bushes ... that is what alegories are about. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/05/2013 at 1:23pm
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Again, I am not a Mason, just extremely interested in the subject.
I found this in relation to a Ram's head and Freemasonry: another dot to connect.
http://mastermason.com/callendar588/html/the_goat.html" rel="nofollow - http://mastermason.com/callendar588/html/the_goat.html
It seems the Ram god of Egypt -- Banebdjedet -- is closely associated with Osiris, which is fascinating in and of itself. A deity of fertility, power, and immortality. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: CAMB.MASON
Date Posted: June/06/2013 at 9:56am
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Perhaps brother Grimoire, find out who the caster was of the monument. Even thou he, Brother White was a Mason, the caster may have taken liberties when making the drawings and cast, adding to his masterpiece. Perhaps the Boston Public Library may offer further information on this piece of work in the Gardens. Maybe Daniel French was a Mason as well, he being the scupltor.
------------- I remain Fraternally Yours: Curator & Historian Cambridge Masonic Temple Cambridge, Massachusetts |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/06/2013 at 10:00am
Hi Camb.Mason,
Yes, Good Advice: I am in the process at the moment. I am typing this from the Copley Library.
I am curious as to exactly what was the intent of the sculptor - I have his name in my notes.
There is a lecture today at 2pm in the Rabb lecture hall on Boston's public monuments, and I will spring this question on the presentor.
P.S. Happy Birthday  ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/06/2013 at 10:05am
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The Ram god of Egypt was not a goat or a sheep, but specifically a Ram. The Egyptian word for Ram and Ba (soul) are the same. The Ram God Banebdjedet was benevolent, as were all the Ram Gods of Egypt, Libya, and the Near East. They were not evil (that was Set and Anubis). So this is a good counter-argument for those who claim any goat worship and satanic connection with Freemasonry. The anti-Masons don't know their Egyptology!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banebdjedet" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banebdjedet
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/07/2013 at 8:51am
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Sheep and Goats: Rams are male SHEEP, not male Goats.
SHEEP belong to the Ovas Aries species and have 54 Chromosomes.
Goats belong to the Capra Hircus species and have 60 Chromosomes.
SHEEP tails hang down.
Goat tails stand up.
SHEEP have fleece
Goats have hair.
SHEEP have a mane.
Goats have a beard.
SHEEP are entirely domesticated
Goats are still found in the wild.
Male Goats have a gland beneath their tails, male SHEEP do not.
So again, the ancient Egyptians worshiped RAMS, and not goats. I cannot find any goat worship amongst the Egyptians at all. Libya seems to have had a goat god.
But there doesn't seem to be a direct link between RAMS and Freemasonry, only through Osiris (who got chopped up by his evil brother Typhon and reassembled by Isis - minus an important body part).
So, again, why would a RAM's head be attached to the end of a Cornucopia on a Freemason memorial?? ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: LGustavson
Date Posted: June/07/2013 at 8:56am
Have we considered the notion that someone simply liked how it looked? ------------- Luke A. Gustavson Hayden Lodge, A.F.&A.M. Initiated: 03/06/13 Passed: 05/01/13 Raised: 10/02/13 |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/07/2013 at 10:48am
First of all you are operating on a false premise. The White monument is not a Freemason memorial. I do not know if White was a Freemason or not, but the purpose of the monument is to celebrate him as a Philanthropist. The inscription on the monument is "A public spirited citizen whose great gift to the City of Boston provided for the creation of works of public utility and beauty for the use and enjoyment of the inhabitants."  "Near the Beacon-Arlington corner stands the beautiful angel monument and fountain honoring George Robert White, one of Boston’s greatest benefactors. When he died in 1922, his will included a charitable trust for public art, with $50,000 set aside for his own memorial. Erected in 1924, the monument is the last of the many collaborations by the sculptor Daniel Chester French and architect Henry Bacon. Symbolizing White’s largesse are the two cornucopias that feed the cobbled granite pool and the graceful bronze angel “casting bread upon the waters.” http://friendsofthepublicgarden.org/our-parks/public-garden/sculpture-memorials/" rel="nofollow - http://friendsofthepublicgarden.org/our-parks/public-garden/sculpture-memorials/ There is no mention of him being a Freemason or Freemason symbols. The Cornucopia and Rams heads were commonly used in Sculpture and Architecture during this period.  http://books.google.com/books?id=GbDEc5-VNuMC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Paul+Wayland+Bartlett+and+Daniel+Chester+French&source=bl&ots=0N2w69mJAE&sig=FYtKB_BzCNGCxET3ohuU-_Kh80o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_fGxUfKpI8vk4AOY8YD4Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Paul%20Wayland%20Bartlett%20and%20Daniel%20Chester%20French&f=false" rel="nofollow - http://books.google.com/books?id=GbDEc5-VNuMC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Paul+Wayland+Bartlett+and+Daniel+Chester+French&source=bl&ots=0N2w69mJAE&sig=FYtKB_BzCNGCxET3ohuU-_Kh80o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_fGxUfKpI8vk4AOY8YD4Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Paul%20Wayland%20Bartlett%20and%20Daniel%20Chester%20French&f=false "The Library’s rear terrace, designed by Thomas Hastings includes classical ornaments such as garlands, urns, and ram’s heads. This is the site of the William Cullen Bryant Memorial. Bryant (1794-1878) was a newspaper editor, one of America’s most popular poets, and a civic improver who led the campaign to create Central Park. Herbert Adams, one of the best New York sculptors of his period, created the bronze figure of Bryant. The memorial was dedicated in 1911, at the completion of the library." http://www.bryantpark.org/things-to-do/monuments.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bryantpark.org/things-to-do/monuments.html "The lavish decorative bronze cap at the base of the flagstaff includes garlands and rams heads, and was sculpted by Paul Wayland Bartlett (1865-1925)." http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/madisonsquarepark/monuments/961" rel="nofollow - http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/madisonsquarepark/monuments/961 "Certain styles of architecture made abundant use of highly carved decoration as part of the street façade. The French-influenced Beaux Arts style, popular from 1880 to 1920, made extensive use of sculpture and elaborate ornamentation in both carved stone and glazed terra-cotta tiles. The most common creature depicted on building façades in this style was the lion's head. It represents strength, courage and nobility, and can be found in various poses and adaptations. Similar French-influenced styles, such as Classical Revival, popular from 1910 to 1938, introduced reptiles. The French Chateauesque and the Neo-Gothic styles incorporated grotesque creatures including the imaginary griffin, a cross between an eagle and a lion. Art Deco, popular from 1925 to 1937, introduced bronze castings in addition to stone carving as a new medium in which to portray winged creatures such as stylized eagles, peacocks and sphinxes. Public buildings for merchants and farmer's markets often incorporated animal forms such as sheep, steers or bison as symbols of a robust commerce and harvest. A ram's head located on other types of buildings symbolized wisdom, power, strength and a defender of right. Other creatures gracing the façades of buildings include owls, horses, dogs, cats, jaguars, foxes, rabbits, lambs, salamanders and cattle." http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/755095_Don-t-blink--Faces-and-figures-watch-from-facades.html" rel="nofollow - http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/755095_Don-t-blink--Faces-and-figures-watch-from-facades.html |
Posted By: GAmastermason
Date Posted: June/07/2013 at 12:19pm
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GrimoireA3, Let me repeat myself again......THERE IS NO SUCH MASONIC EMBLEM. WE DO NOT HAVE A CORNUCOPIA WITH.A RAM OR GOAT HEAD ATTACHED TO IT!!! I don't mean to be rude, but you have posted the same question three times with everyone telling you it's not a Masonic emblem. ------------- Past Master Past High Priest Past Illustrious Master Past Eminent Commander Past Worthy Patron OES Yaarab Shriner Tall Cedars of Lebanon KYCH |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/10/2013 at 11:30am
Hi GAmastermason, My questin was why is there a Ram's attached to a Cornucopia? The Cornucopia is definately a Masonic 'Jewel' as described in Freemasons for Dummies, pgs. 101-102 for the senior and junior Stewards. So why is there a Ram's head attached to the bottom? Obviously it is a composite.
Now I just researched that the Architect who designed this really cool memorial was Mr. Henry Bacon - a Freemason. The artist, Mr. Daniel Chester French, was following the design of a Mason.
Also my research has led me to a definate distinction between a goat head and a Ram's head for Freemasonry - goat heads have nothing at all to do with Freemasonry. That's important information to counter the specious accusations of the anti-Masonic crowd.
But the Ram's head has a connotation with Freemasonry through Osiris. A very good connotation because none of the Ram gods of ancient Egypt had anything to do with evil or dark purposes (that was Set and Anubis); all the Ram gods were benevolent and connected with light and the transportation of the soul of Osiris.
So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia?
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/10/2013 at 11:34am
Hi LGustavson,
That is a possibility. But my first impressions of the Freemason fraternity is that they are an extremely pragmatic bunch and don't do anything without purpose. The architect who designed the memorial, Henry Bacon, was a Freemason.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/" rel="nofollow - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/
MASONS HAVE NATIONAL TREASURES TOO! ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/10/2013 at 11:37am
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Hi Masonic Truths,
Thank you for the effort and sharing your research.
Also, the architect who designed the memorial, Henry French, was a Freemason.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/" rel="nofollow - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/
Masons Have National Treasures Too
And that is the point, that there is a fantastic Memorial sitting in the Boston Public Garden which I have sat near for over forty years and I had no idea it was an example of Freemason art and architecture. I just found out recently and It needs to be recognized and celebrated.
P.S. Again, I am not a Mason. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/10/2013 at 3:10pm
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The Cornucopia is definately a Masonic 'Jewel' Yes, but it is not only a Masonic symbol. It has been used by many ancient groups. So again I am asking any Freemason why is there a Rams head connected to the bottom of a Cornucopia? The Ram's head is not used in Blue Lodge Masonry as has been pointed out to you. Maybe it is used in York Rite or Scottish Rite. The fact that the designer was a Mason and the symbols may be used in Masonry does not automatically mean that the statue is Masonic or has a Masonic meaning. ...there is a fantastic Memorial sitting in the Boston Public Garden which I have sat near for over forty years and I had no idea it was an example of Freemason art and architecture... Where exactly in the Public Gardens is this statue you look at ? I'd like to have a look at it myself. Why are you convinced these things you are referring to are Masonic? |
Posted By: GAmastermason
Date Posted: June/10/2013 at 8:22pm
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@ GrimoireA3
Following up with Brother Droche's comment above. I am a member of the York Rite and Scottish Rite also. There is not a Ram's head emblem in those Masonic bodies either.
We all agree that the cornucopia is the emblem of the Stewards of the Blue Lodge. We all agree that the cornucopia is ancient and not exclusive to Freemasonry. The all seeing eye isn't exclusive to us either. We share many emblems with ancient cultures and organizations.
I am a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason our emblem is a Double Headed Eagle, but it came from the ancient Sumerian culture and has been used by different groups. The emblem was used by the Russian Empire, Holy Roman Empire, etc among many others! Heck its used as the emblem on the Medieval Times Restaurant lol.
The Knight Templar use the Passion Cross as its emblem. The Cross has been used by hundreds of organizations, churches and groups to proclaim Christ for over 2,000 years.
Like I have said before. I don't know why there is a cornucopia with a ram's head attached...it has nothing to do with Freemasonry. For what ever reason, you are trying to make it into something that it is not.
End rant ------------- Past Master Past High Priest Past Illustrious Master Past Eminent Commander Past Worthy Patron OES Yaarab Shriner Tall Cedars of Lebanon KYCH |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 11:43am
Yes, I am having difficulty in locating a Rams head image in any of the old Freemason manuals or books. But there is mention of Ram's heads in all the adjacent philosophies/ideologies used by the Craft, such as Pythagoras's hieroglyphic of the Rams head to denote power and fertility.
Yes, thank you for that. I came up with the same observation.
Impressive set of credentials. Again, which is why I am on a Freemason site asking questions from the experts. Yet I too have a set of expert credentials particularly when it comes to doing research (a Masters degree in History). And my research on this particular Ram's headed cornucopia is starting to bring about some interesting set of facts.
Actually I am not trying to make it out of something it is not, since it does exist and it was designed by an architect who was a Mason - Henry Bacon. And Boston was a hotbed of Freemason activity and influence in the late 1800s (and that is not a bad thing). Right now I am puzzling out a lot of related information which I will write out on this forum (if relative).
Not a rant at all, but some interesting research and some clarification - thank you. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 11:57am
The memorial which I am researching is the Angel of the Waters dedication to George White located just across the street from the 'Cheers' Bull & Finch pub. I was just sitting there again this morning before I came here to the Boston Public Library/Copley square.
To answer a very good question: Why am I convinced these things I am researching are Masonic? I am basing my opinion on some of these excellent scholarly works on Freemasonry that I am learning:
1. 'WASHINGTON ALLSTON, SECRET SOCIETIES, AND THE ALCHEMY OF ANGLO-AMERICAN PAINTING' (1997) by David Bjelajac
2. 'THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study' (1991) by James Stevens Curl
3. MASONIC SYMBOLISM. (1939) by Charles Clyde Hunt
Laurence Press, Co. Cedar Rapids, Iowa
4. 'MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual, architecture, and masculine Archetypes' (c. 2006) by William D. Moore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-Scholarly Works:
MASONIC SYMBOLS IN aMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS (1976)
National Heritage Museum, Lexington, MA.
http://www.nationalheritagemuseum.org/" rel="nofollow - http://www.nationalheritagemuseum.org/
'FREEMASONRY AND THE NEOCLASSIC STYLE IN AMERICA' , Antiques magazine, (Feb. 1960)
All the evidence points that the memorial found in the Boston Public Garden is indicative of Masonic Art and Architecture (in fact the architect was a Mason) embodying both the Neoclassic and Mannerist styles of Freemason allegory and metaphor.
It appears that Freemasonry has its own: Art, Architecture, Music, Prayers, Ideology, and a distinctive way of expressing those values. None of it bad.
But to deny that the Angel of the Waters memorial in Boston Public Garden is not Masonic is really denying all the blatant evidence. And yes there are a bunch of works of art scattered throughout the Public Garden and Boston Common that are not Masonic, but there are quite a few that are.
This is the basis of my educated conjecture.  ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 12:03pm
Hi Camb.Mason,
Thank you for that suggestion.
But I discovered that the architect of that monument, Mr. Henry Bacon, was a Mason.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/" rel="nofollow - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/
So it is a beautiful work of art done by the sculptor Daniel Chester French who followed the Masonic design of a Freemason architect, Mr. Henry Bacon. I have not yet discovered whether Mr. French was a Mason, but he gradutate from MIT which is a very Masonic university.
So far I am connecting some very interesting dots regarding that fantastic piece of Neoclassic art work!. And am learning more and more about the Craft as I go along. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 12:09pm
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 1:08pm
|
Brethren, You are dealing with a person who thinks there is a conspiracy to hide Masonic secrets within the monument. No matter how hard you try to tell him the symbols are not excursive to Freemasonry, the more he is convinced that his interpretations are correct. So what a number of men involved in its construction were Freemasons. I would have been more surprised if none of the men were Freemasons. His 'connect the dots' logic is flawed. He has skipped a couple of lines and dots. ... He has yet to find the owner's criteria for commissioning the monument and the reason they selected the sculptor Daniel Chester French to design it. He has not obtained the sculptor French's description of the monument and how it full fills the owner's requirements. Until this is obtained any interpretation on his part is pure speculation and another Masonic Conspiracy. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: NobleShabba
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 2:00pm
Or, in the immortal words of Flava-Flav...
------------- ---------------------- DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong! |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 2:09pm
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Hey, who's in chage of guarding our treasure of gold this month? The Grand PooBa didn't sent me a schedule this time. ... Anyway it is about time to move it again .... ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 3:37pm
Do any of the works you listed actually state that the statues/memorials you are examining are Masonic? If so can you quote them and the pages they are on? Here's the thing- If they were Masonic, I would think that the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts would have mentioned them somewhere along the way. To the best of my knowledge, and I have 31 active years in the Craft, they have not. I could have missed something though and at this point I am not saying you are wrong, but up to this point, I do not believe that you have submitted enough evidence. Unlike edmax, I do not necessarily think you see a conspiracy, but it does look like you have missed a few dots, as he put it. |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/11/2013 at 6:08pm
| By the way, and this might be where edmax gets the idea you see a conspiracy- if you think that there is a Masonic theme to these statues and memorials but that we are trying to keep that a secret, that would be absolutely wrong. It just isn't like that. There would be no need for us to do so. |
Posted By: coach
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 6:43am
In Freemasonry, things get hidden in plain sight all the time that provide information to the informed while leaving the uninformed questioning and bewildered. Although it appears that the symbol of the R.A.M should not be there when comparing other Symbols that are more standard, and that it appears out of place with other symbols used to communicate within Freemasonic lore, mythology and legend, if you look closely and Perpend carefully all that has been revealed in the rendering, the symbol discloses the artist's thoughts on the connection between the Cornucopia and a specific Masonic path. You must pay close attention to the man behind the curtain. This is what doing the Work that is pointed out within the first three Degrees is designed to develop within you. The ability to see things that other less informed individuals cannot. Those who have done the Work, see! RE: Why did the artist include it? The simple answer is that he chose to. Freemasonry does not dictate what a artist can render. If anything, it frees up the artist to render things in more veiled ways. You assume that a Freemasonic craftsman is constrained by your preconceived notions as to what is acceptable to Freemasonry and what is not. When you do, you assume wrongfully. ------------- Building Builders - Masonic Education! http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall |
Posted By: Mike Martin
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 7:20am
|
A ram is not used as a Masonic symbol. Although here in England I once heard a young Mason described as randy as a goat. ------------- Mike Martin http://www.merseylodge5434.org" rel="nofollow - Click for Mersey Lodge UGLE http://www.masonic-forum.com" rel="nofollow - Click for My UK Freemasonry Forum |
Posted By: GaLightSeeker
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 8:24am
It wasn't this guy was it? ------------- E - 5 Feb 2013 P - 2 Apr 2013 R - 16 Apr 2013 |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 8:41am
|
A description of the fountain - monument can be read at http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white_pg/dcfrench_white_pg.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white_pg/dcfrench_white_pg.html ... I would say the monument is a fitting tribute to a man who's generously & freely gave large gifts to Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, Massachusetts General Hospital and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy; and though his Trust, is still giving to the people of Boston. Therefore, Georgia Robert White is being portrayed as being the Angle or having the spirit of the Angle. I think originally, this Angle was 'sowing seeds' upon the ground which would sprout and provide for the future; but in the fountain setting, this easy translated into 'casting bread upon the waters'. Thus the same allegory as 'sowing seeds'. The Cornucopia being "horn of plenty is a symbol of abundance and nourishment". ... In my opinion, this element can very well represent the 'George Robert White Trust Fund' which continues to provide for the city and people of Boston to this day. ... The Ram's head at the end of the Cornucopia is an artistic element to complete the allusion & allegory of the Cornucopia of 'Plenty' with an unending flow of water (Plenty) into the fountain (city & people of Boston). There is another monument (sister to this one) erected to Georgia Robert White. It is the 'Angle of Peace'. ... http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white/dcfrench_white.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/white/dcfrench_white.html As stated several times above. while the elements of the monument are also used as symbols in Freemasonry, they are not exclusive to Freemasonry. The symbolism & allegory is the same as represented by Greek & Roman mythology (the Classics). This monument is to a Man and not to Freemasonry. ... However, I am glad to call George Robert White a Brother. The symbolism and tribute of the monument is very simple. There is no hidden meaning or secrets here. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: NobleShabba
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:03am
Again, despite your earlier denials this sounds like fishing for content for a book. ------------- ---------------------- DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:38am
Hi NobleShabba, In all honesty I have no intention at all in writing a book on Freemasonry. Again, if I were to write a book at all it would be in an area of my expertise, which is Forced Busing in Boston. "BUT"  to tell you all the truth, I am so interested in this subject and have accumulated so much material in the past two months that I would love to do a paper and submit it to the Masons for review! Again, I am not trying to spill the beans, or dig up 'secrets', or do any intentional harm to Masonry. I have no reason for that at all.And actually I would like to get on with my life, this interest in Masonry has detoured me from my original research on bible history (which is how I became aware of Masonry in the first place, I came across a 'Masonic Bible'). So as soon as I satisfy my curiosity on the Craft, especially here in Boston, the sooner I go back to normal. So why do Masons use the King James bible? What is the connection with Rams to Masonry? Why is there a Rams head stuck on the end of a Cornucopia on an obviously Masonic memorial in the Boston Public Garden? Questions, questions, questions...... ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GAmastermason
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:45am
|
Ok ok....I decided to spill all the Masonic secrets. The cornucopia with the rams head is how we identify our secret monuments. We have hidden the secret Knights Templar treasure all around the world. To figure out how to open the monument with the emblem. The instructions are in secret code in all Masonic King James Bible. If you aren't high enough in rank we give you a different Bible. There are your answers..,.thanks for making me crack asking the same question over and over. ------------- Past Master Past High Priest Past Illustrious Master Past Eminent Commander Past Worthy Patron OES Yaarab Shriner Tall Cedars of Lebanon KYCH |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 10:56am
But I'm not interested in any Masonic secrets?  I don't want to know the lastest Masonic cipers, or the most recent hand-shakes or grips, I don't want access to the current membership of world wide Masonry.I am just very interested in a public memorial in the Boston Public Garden which I have visited countless times in my life and the symbolism of a Rams head on the Cornucopia? That is a public memorial subject to public scrutiny - nothing secret about that at all. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:04am
Hi GaLightSeeker, http://www.mastermason.com/princeofwales/ram.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.mastermason.com/princeofwales/ram.html Just to let you know, I am not a Mason yet I am very interested in Freemasonry. I am a life long resident of Boston, MA. (South Boston) and have recently discovered that Boston has had a very active Freemason history. According to my reseach: 1. Goats are not Rams; 2. Freemasonry has nothing to do with Goats; 3. Freemasonry has nothing to do with the devil or devil worship or satan or anything 'evil' as a matter of fact; 4. Freemasonry has a connection with the Ram through Osiris, and through King Solomon who had Ram-headed sphinxes lining the stairway of his personal home: House of the Forest of Lebanon; 5. All the Ram gods of the ancient near east were the good guys, all benevolent and helpful. http://www.honorofkings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/House-of-the-Forest-of-Lebanon.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.honorofkings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/House-of-the-Forest-of-Lebanon.jpg ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GAmastermason
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:07am
|
The only person who knows the symbolism of the monument is the sculptor. You keep referring to the emblems as Masonic, but you keep pushing the issue. No one here sculpted the monument. The symbol as you are describing it is not Masonic. I think you are looking for Masonic secrets. Otherwise, why would to be interested in Masonry??! ------------- Past Master Past High Priest Past Illustrious Master Past Eminent Commander Past Worthy Patron OES Yaarab Shriner Tall Cedars of Lebanon KYCH |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:11am
Hi edwmax, Thank you so much for that information. That was very nice of you to put in the effort and locate some info that is helpful to me. Really appreciate it. Again, I am on the side of Freemasonry. That particular public memorial is a Boston monument which I've always liked. And if the memorial turns out to be specifically Freemason, why all the secrecy? That would be a bragging point and probably boost the membership applications? I think my hometown, Boston, is that much more special because of the large and active presence of Freemasonry from 1870-1935. I would really like to see another Freemason Parade in downtown Boston like they did in 1898!! (For crying out loud they just had a huge homosexual 'Gay Day' Parade this past Saturday in Boston which I find incredibly offensive and off-kilter). Boston seems to have had a very proud Freemason population which in my humble opinion needs to be revived. (sorry for the rant). ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:25am
Hi GAmastermason, Actually the guy who designed that particular Neoclassic work of art was the architect, Mr. Henry Bacon, who was a Mason. The sculptor, Mr. Daniel Chester French, was a graduate of MIT and he just followed the design of the Freemason designer.
No sir. I am not seeking Masonic secrets. I am very interested in that particular sculpture here in the Boston Public Garden because my interest has been piqued regarding it. I have only admired that memorial countless times in my 56 years here in Boston, and in my recent research it was brought out in a scholarly book 'THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study' (1991) by James Stevens Curl (MIT libraries); and 'Freemasonry and the Neoclassic style in America' Antiques magazine (Feb. 1960), that Boston Freemasons between 1870 and 1935 chose the Neoclassic school of Art to express their Masonic tastes in art and sculpture and left their excellent taste all through the Boston area, including the architecture of MIT itself. And that preference for the Neoclassic school of Art is clearly demonstrated by the memorial Angel of the Waters found in the Boston Public Garden. And I am simply research some questions I hav asked myself (and am coming up with some good answers). So I really have no hidden agenda or anything like that.
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 11:41am
Just to clarify on some new information proving 'goat riding' within the Freemason fraternity is a huge myth: Please read the book: BURLESQUE PARAPHERNALIA AND SIDE DEGREE SPECIALTIES AND COSTUMES CATALOG NO. 439 (2010) Fantagraphic Books, Introduction by Mr. Charles Schneider, Freemason. This is a catalog from the DeMoulin Brothers Company, Greenville, Ill., founded in 1892, which manufactured mechanical goats and all sorts of gags and props for the many fraternities in existance at that time (such as the Oddfellow, or the Junior Order of United American Mechanics, or Improved Order of Red Men, or Knights of Maccabees, or Knights of Pythias, or the Freemasons). The point being that: 1. Goats have nothing at all to do with Freemasonry; 2. it was a common practice amongst other fraternaties to ride a goat (as well as dozens of other stunts and gags) as part of their inititations; 3. Instead of a mechanical goat, for an extra $10 you could order a mechanical Horse, Donkey, Tiger, or a Camel body rather than a goat. So the 'goat' was not specific to any fraternity nor did it have any specific connotation. The anti-Masons who tried to link goat riding with satainc worship made a donkey of themselves with such a specious and superficial argument. Again, goats have nothing to do with Masonry. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GaLightSeeker
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 12:20pm
|
Hi Grim, Sorry, the pic was actually a reference to Brother Martin's post about the randy goat guy. I should have added quotes. The links you posted were very interesting though. I would tend to agree with the other brothers about the symbolism. Although, it is an important part of Masonry, it's not nearly as important as most non-Masons make it out to be. ------------- E - 5 Feb 2013 P - 2 Apr 2013 R - 16 Apr 2013 |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 1:36pm
|
This has gone from the ridiculous to the absurd. You have not posted one iota of evidence that the White Memorial is "an obviously Masonic memorial". It appears the logic you are using to come to that conclusion is: Henry Bacon was a Freemason. Henry Bacon designed the memorial. ∴ The memorial is a Masonic memorial. This is the same logic used by the Masonic Conspiracy nuts that say Washington D C streets are laid out to create Masonic symbols. Do you think all of these are "obviously Masonic memorials"? They were also designed by Henry Bacon. Architectural settings, bases and exedra for sculpture Commodore George Hamilton Perkins, (1902), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, New Hampshire State House, Concord, New Hampshire Col. James Anderson Monument, (1904), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Allegheny Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania August Robert Meyer Memorial, (1909) Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Kansas City, Missouri Prehn Mausoleum, (1912) Karl Bitter sculptor, carved by the Piccirilli Brothers, Cedar Lawn Cemetery, Paterson, New Jersey Abraham Lincoln (1912 statue) by Daniel Chester French, Lincoln, Nebraska,1912. Carl Schurz Monument, (1913) Karl Bitter sculptor, Morningside Park, New York City Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Monument, (1914), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Longfellow Park, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lafayette Monument, (1917), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Prospect Park, Brooklyn, New York Depew Memorial Fountain, (1919), Karl Bitter and Alexander Stirling Calder sculptors, University Park, Indianapolis, Indiana Russell Alger Memorial Fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French, sculptor, Grand Circus Park, Detroit, Michigan Dupont Circle fountain, (1921), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Dupont Circle, Washington, D.C. Alexander Hamilton Monument, (1923), James Earle Fraser sculptor, Washington D.C. Jesse Parker Williams Memorial, (c. 1924), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Westview Cemetery, Atlanta, Georgia American Revolutionary War Memorial, (c. 1915), Daniel Chester French sculptor, Jno. Williams, Inc. (NY) founder, Danville, Illinois http://www.reference.com/browse/henry+bacon Edit: My research shows that Russell Alger and Jesse Parker Williams were also Freemasons. |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 3:21pm
|
Grimoire, I do not understand why you insist that some things are which we say aren't. You seem to be stuck on the premise that the ram's head is a Masonic symbol. It is not. You seem to be stuck on the premise that Freemasonry has a connection to the Egyptian god Osiris. It does not. If you want to learn about Freemasonry you need to get off these things because if you remain stuck on them your learning will stall and not recover. My advice is accept the fact that the memorial in the Public Gardens is not Masonic and move on. |
Posted By: GAmastermason
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 3:26pm
|
@ masonic.truths,
I am with you brother!! This post is getting so old. Even when we try to help he doesn't listen. That's when I went on my absurd story about secret monuments with a secret code in the Masonic King James Bibles. My made up story has about a much validity as his "research".
If he isn't a Mason, doesn't want to know the secrets, doesn't want to be a Mason.....then what is the point?? Why ask us to "interpret" masonic emblems for him??
He does not understand that Masonry is perceived differently to Masons and Non-Masons alike. I used to wear a Rosary around my neck?? I wore it because I am a Christian and like the design, but I am not Catholic....but wearing it?? Did it make me Catholic??? Nope!!
------------- Past Master Past High Priest Past Illustrious Master Past Eminent Commander Past Worthy Patron OES Yaarab Shriner Tall Cedars of Lebanon KYCH |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 5:13pm
My only concern is with this particular memorial, and not all of Freemasonry nor every statue/memorial in the U.S.
If you carefully read my posts and read those books which I am basing my conclusions, you will discern that I have demonstrated that the Neoclassic school of art was the preferred method for Boston Freemasons between 1870 - 1935 to erect the monuments and statuary which identify those works of art as being Freemason in design. That Angel of the Waters is a Neoclassic work of Art.
The monument in the Boston Public Garden was designed by a Freemason architect, Henry Bacon; the monument has a Freemason symbol, the cornucopia; and I have made connections with the Rams head through Solomon's home: The House of the Forests of Lebanon via a Masonic 'Holy Bible' in the Boston Public Library, Kirchner edition; and Cast thy bread bread upon the Waters from Eccl XI.I is prominent both on the monument and in four of the Freemason manuals I have read, Stewart's being one off the top of my head. YES this is a Freemason memorial.
Any more denial or stonewalling on part of active Masons cannot be interpreted other than dull and transparent mendacity. Sorry to be blunt.
I have a few more 'dots' to connect. I need to find out a few more facts. But I am on the right path.
To borrow a maxim from a very famous Freemason:
"When you have eliminated the impossible,
regardless what remains,
no matter how improbable;
Must be the Truth!"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
No this pursuit is not absurd. I have received some very useful information from other real Masons on this forum which is or great help. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 6:27pm
|
Grimoire, It is very unfortunate that you are accusing us of denial, stonewalling and mendacity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people on this forum have welcomed you and have tried to help you and you all but accuse us of lying. So be it. You will believe what you like. That's it for me on this thread unless you get real. |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 6:42pm
Yep ... we are stonewalling him. No matter how hard we try, our help is simple viewed as 'misdirection on our part' to conceal the true meaning of the monument.
i haven't seen anything eliminated as being 'impossible'. You have simple selected a book by Chris Hodapp as being the basis of Masonic research to the exclusion of other possibilities Continue on ... and when you come to a finial conclusion please post it here. ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 7:04pm
|
Brethern, I dare say GrimoireA3 has found Who and what the 'Inner Circle' of High Level Master Masons is. The following is from 1610, showing the 'Church conveying the Blessing of the True Religion from Rome'. Ecclesia is holding a Cornucopis and the 5 Crowns in her lap represent the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy" rel="nofollow - five patriarchal sees of the Church. ... Per GrimoireA3 logic; Because the Cornucopia is a Freemason symbol, THEN:
 Hahahaha! edit add: ref for the above http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-catholic-church-in-rome.html" rel="nofollow - http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-catholic-church-in-rome.html ------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: edwmax
Date Posted: June/12/2013 at 7:10pm
|
Hummm ... I think there might be a conflict with a few 'papal bulls' from the Popes over the last 300 years ... but the is just another misdirection and stonewalling on the Popes part.
------------- "He who would assume to govern others must first learn to govern himself." Thomasville 369 |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 9:03am
         A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html The original cornucopia was a ram or goat's horn in Roman mythology. The Roman god Jupiter gave a goat's horn to his nursemaid as a reward for doing such a great job babysitting him and taking care of him as an infant. It was a magical horn of supply, and whenever the nursemaid desired something, she just made a wish, reached in the horn, and pulled out her heart's desire. http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 9:17am
There is no reason we would try to conceal a Masonic Memorial. We proudly display Masonic symbols and acknowledge our memorials. On November 1, 1923, the Memorial's cornerstone was dedicated in a Masonic ceremony. President Calvin Coolidge, former President and Chief Justice William H. Taft and numerous other dignitaries performed the ceremony before a crowd of thousands of Freemasons from around the nation. The onset of the Great Depression did not stop work on the Memorial. For over 10 years, Freemasons steadily and faithfully contributed to the construction of the Memorial. On May 12, 1932, the bicentennial year of George Washington's birth, the dedication of the Memorial took place with President Herbert Hoover participating. After World War II, work on the Memorial's interior began in earnest. By 1970, the George Washington Masonic Memorial was completed. In 1999, the large square and compasses were added to the front lawn, a visible sign to the Masonic nature of the Memorial. A repository of many artifacts and the history of American Freemasons, the Memorial remains a lasting monument to George Washington, the Man, the Mason, and Father of our Country. http://gwmemorial.org/history.php" rel="nofollow - http://gwmemorial.org/history.php |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:07am
I am sorry. Many apologies. As you can tell I am not a Mason because I lost my temper.
But I do have info which has reasonably lead me to believe that memorial is Masonic in origin and purpose. And that is not a bad thing. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:16am
Hi masonic.truths,
Thank you for this information. And that is one of my points, the Masons do proudly reveal their monuments, as well they should. So why all the secrecy regarding 'Angels of the Waters' in the Boston Public Garden???
What if I prove (and I'm close) that the George White memorial is a Masonic tribute to a Brother? I do not see the harm in that. Nobody will know but me (or a Freemason magazine like the Trowel that I submit a paper)?!
Every thing is becoming so neglected here in Boston that I find that depressing. Even this particular memorial I am researching (and in the progress learning the history of Masonry here in Boston) is a bit worn. The fountain doesn't work and there are homeless people sleeping in it
 and Chinese taking money out of the fountain bowl (?). It should be refurbished which I am going to bring to the attention of the municipality.But I am still curious as to why a Rams head was stuck onto the end of a Cornucopia?? That I want to find out even if no one on this forum knows the reason.
I'm sorry if I don't come across too clear in my posts, I don't mean to be aggravating. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:24am
|
[QUOTE=masonic.truths] [QUOTE=masonic.truths]A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.cafeastrology.com/zodiacaries.html The original cornucopia was a ram or goat's horn in Roman mythology. The Roman god Jupiter gave a goat's horn to his nursemaid as a reward for doing such a great job babysitting him and taking care of him as an infant. It was a magical horn of supply, and whenever the nursemaid desired something, she just made a wish, reached in the horn, and pulled out her heart's desire. http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html%20%5b/QUOTE" rel="nofollow - http://www.whats-your-sign.com/goddess-symbols-of-fortuna.html [/QUOTE ] UTTERLY FANTASTIC!!! What a profound piece of research! I want one of those for myself!!!!
Thank you masonic.truths. I think you hit the nail on the head.
I saw one of these items in a antique shop on Charles Street here in Boston where that are two golden Rams head pins in the front window of a shop where the Yankees (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) resided in the 1890s-1920. Selling the former items of the old Boston Brahmins, like Rams heads.
Anyways, nice piece of research. This helps me out a lot. Prooving or disprooving a theory are equally important. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:27am
|
Hello edwmax,
That was an interesting piece of history in your post. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you for the time and effort in the research! ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:32am
http://s971.photobucket.com/user/wimberly1951/media/tapestry.png.html" rel="nofollow">
|
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 10:33am
This can be useful.
Rams are sheep actually and I think this distinction is important for Masonry as a counter-argument against specious anti-Mason 'satanic' goat worshiping rhetoric.
But this attribute combined with that provided by masonic.truths can provide a valid premise for the presence of Rams in Neoclassic art and architecture. Those goblets are fantastic in masonic.truths posts!!!
Thank you. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 1:23pm
|
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 2:17pm
I accept your apology but you need to know that we are not trying to hide anything about the memorial in the Boston Public Gardens. If you feel you have information that it is, post it here. I know you said read those books you listed but frankly, if someone comes on a forum and says there is information contained in a book, I believe the onus is on them to specifically cite it. Please do so. We are open minded here and will consider any information you have. I reiterate that I have never heard that the memorial is Masonic and I would think being in close proximity to it all these years I would have heard something if it was. |
Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: June/13/2013 at 5:39pm
|
The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol.
------------- MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF Living in the DC area. |
Posted By: coach
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 6:23am
AMEN! ------------- Building Builders - Masonic Education! http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall |
Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 8:41am
|
Lets assume I'm a reputable artist and for arguments sake, never became a mason. Let it be known that this is a fact: Before I became a Mason or knew much about the symbols of Masonry, I went to Old Navy and bought a cool looking shirt. It had the number 32 emblazoned on the front with a double headed eagle and a crown under it's talons with Latin written about. After learning what the shirt was, I shelved it for home use only because I'm not a 32 degree mason. I die with the shirt on. Someone notices it is the symbolism of the 32 degree in the Scottish Rite. Does that make me a mason? Remember, imagery =/= masonic unless you can prove the artist was a mason. Otherwise Honey Nut Cheerios is "the cereal of industry." I can go on with the comparisons but I hope that makes sense. ------------- Initiated 4-22-13 Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 9:55am
Hi droche,
Yes, the onus probandi is definately on me which is why I've cited or listed every piece of info I am able onto this formum for public consumption.
Yet I am still too computer illiterate to be able to post pages off of Freemason Manuals dated 1856 to 1907 with Lithographic drawings: for example: The Freemason's Manual (1852) by K. J. Stewart, contains on page 52 a lithograph etching of a small pedastal with the Holy Bible opened on the top, with a large Square and Compass emblem on the front and three Rams heads holding up the Holy Bible. Getting a copy of this page onto this forum is beyond me (you can view it on http://www.books.google.com" rel="nofollow - http:www.books.google.com ).
Here's another example: a copy of a 1939 Masonic Bible by Kirchner has several illustrations in the front, one of those illustrations is of The House of the Forest of Lebanon with six large Ram headed sphinxes going up the steps. Why would King So-lo-mon have Ram sphinxes on the fron porch of his residence? And again, it is beyond me to transfer that illustration from a Masonic Bible to this forum. Though you can view that same illustration on the web.
http://www.honorofkings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11House-of-the-Forest-of-Lebanon.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.honorofkings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11House-of-the-Forest-of-Lebanon.jpg
And again, up in Canada a new Masonic Temple was built with several Rams Heads on the front fence and gate. Now why are Freemasons using a Rams head since So-lo-mon?? Those huge Ram sphinxes on So-lo-mon's front porch three thousand years ago had nothing to do with artistic embellishment, they had a specific meaning and purpose which I think has embeded into Freemasonry. Egyptian Rams specifically, not the Roman nor Greek interpretation.
It isn't that Freemasons are just randomly using a Rams head as an artistic device, it is very obvious that the Rams head has significance to Freemasonry. And it is at this point the guessing begins - anywhere from the lost phallus of Osiris to the soul bearer of Osiris or some other symbolism. I just think it would important to know for academic advancement - and nothing more.
Those Cornucopia with a Rams head stuck at the bottom look too uncomfortably like a large Phallus to be ignored - as well as all those goblets: Roman pagan phallic symbols. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 9:58am
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 10:06am
Just a polite reminder that I am not a Mason, and while I have professional research experience, I am just an amateur at all aspects of the Craft.
Three Masons on these forums all recommended the book FREEMASONRY FOR DUMMIES by Christopher Hodapp; and on pages 101-102 of this recommended work is a large drawing of a Cornucopia and a detailed description of how the Cornucopia is the 'Jewel' of both the Senior and Junior Stewards.
Now despite your literary pallindrome: my question to you is how is the Cornucopia not associated with Freemasonry?
While the association of the Cornucopia with Freemasonry has all been well established by dozens of books on Freemasonry, I am trying to research the connection of the Rams head with Freemasonry, as it is stuck on the bottom of a Cornucopoia on a Neoclassic Masonic memorial in the Boston Public Garden. So far I have gathered very strong circumstantial evidence that the Rams head does have some kind of symbolic meaning for the craft, but what it is only real Masons know for sure. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 10:09am
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 12:31pm
1) Just put that you are not a mason in your sig but I'm sure most if not all the brethren and non brethren alike know you are not a Mason by now.  2) The stewards use the cornucopia as their symbol because they usually are charged with cooking the meal before meetings. The cornucopia was not a masonic invention but a symbol adopted in lodge for ritual use. Outside of Masonry it is symbolic of abundance and nourishment. (which is why it was most likely adopted for its use in masonry for the office that feeds us...heh George Robert White was one of Boston's leading philanthropists, having amassed a fortune in wholesale drugs. When he died in 1922, he left the city a five million dollar bequest to build clinics and fund the arts. Within this legacy was a $50,000 gift and request to build a memorial by which he might be remembered. He nourished the city with his gift of money which is why the cornucopia adorn his memorial. It is symbolic of what he did in life and death. Remember, symbolism in Masonry is used to educate us. It isn't used as statement pieces because they will not mean anything to the profane when they view it OUTSIDE of what they know the symbol means to them. There is nothing masonic about the fountain. It is representative of how he lead his life as a giver and provider. You are over-analyzing the material you have in front of you. ------------- Initiated 4-22-13 Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
Posted By: DoctorAramis
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 1:19pm
I'm asking because I did not understand the difference. Can someone dumb it down for me a little.
In my mind the  is a symbol used by the chinese, is it not then a chinese symbol? |
Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 1:50pm
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edited: Misinterpreted your post, Bro Doc. Aramis ------------- Initiated 4-22-13 Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
Posted By: DoctorAramis
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 2:15pm
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Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 3:03pm
Yes the cornucopia is the symbol used for the stewards. However, we call going through the officer line the chairs. Does this mean that chairs are a symbol of Masonic origin? How about the sun and moon in the jewel of the senior and junior deacons? Are they symbols used by Masons yes. But they are not Masonic symbols. Another question is Thanksgiving a Masonic Holiday or was it a symbol of plenty? The book series The Hunger Games has a cornucopia as a part of it does that make it Masonic? No one and I repeat no one has denied the fact that the cornucopia is associated with Freemasonry. Again the simple statement: The cornucopia is a symbol used my Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol. Is extremely true and very logical. As are the explanations the previous posters have given. It is starting to look like you are not looking for truth and trying to catch us in something. ------------- MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF Living in the DC area. |
Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 3:09pm
It is a symbol used by Masons to symbolize the Stewards. However, the Masonic lodge did not create the cornucopia. Like the volume of sacred law. It is a symbol of the revelation of deity to man used by the lodge. I am a Christian Mason so my VSL is the Holy Bible. The lodge uses the Holy Bible but the Holy Bible is not of Masonic origins. Ergo the Holy Bible is a symbol used by Masons, it is not a Masonic symbol. ------------- MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF Living in the DC area. |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/14/2013 at 3:13pm
I think what he meant was that the cornucopia symbol did not originate with the Masons. Just like the treasurers symbol is crossed keys, those aren't Masonic symbols; they are used in other institutions and originated in other institutions. |
Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 5:55am
Yes that is exactly what I mean. ------------- MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF Living in the DC area. |
Posted By: DoctorAramis
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 7:02am
Ok so to be called a masonic symbol masons should have used it for the 1st time and if another group had 'invented' the symbol and masons also use it then its just a symbol that masons ALSO use.
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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 7:58am
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So if you want to consider the cornucopia a Masonic symbol, fine, it is a Masonic symbol to you. I don't see that it is worth debating. |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 9:37am
Hi Coach,
This observation is fitting in with my research so far.
As I learn more about the history of Freemasonry via my research on the Ram's headed cornucopia I may have grasped an aspect of the Craft that was, at the time, "Spurious Masonry" prior to the merging of Speculative and Operative at the construction of King So-lo-mon's Temple.
Also, Pythagoras seems to have used the Cornucopia as a symbol for abundance just as Pythagoras used the Beaver as a symbol for Noah (as sometimes Masons had referred to themselves as Noahites) because the ark lifted the initiate to a higher level of light. This would exlpain the two Beavers on the outside wall of the Massachusetts Grand Lodge on Tremont street, and why MIT's mascot is the Beaver and why the MIT 'brass rat' is a Beaver.
So the Ram may have been an important symbol in Spurious Masonry, but it might be a hold-over within Operative and Speculative Freemasonry??? ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 9:38am
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 9:51am
Its not a 'Chinese' symbol generally, but a TAOIST symbol specifically. Taoism is the indigenous religion of China. Buddhism was imported into China from the West. The Taoists and the Buddhists have been violent rivals within China for over 500 years.
The Taoists invented the "Yin/Yang" symbol
 and it is the emblem of their religion just as the Crucifix is the emblem of Catholicism. I have been studying the religion of Taoism since 1970, and it is a favorite of mine (but it does have a dark side: torture chambers and rape being two negatives). The TAOISTS believe in physical IMMORTALITY, (Buddhists believe in reincarnation) and try to achieve it through internal alchemy, i.e. diet. (See: Microbiotic diet). In their centuries of alchemical experimentation to achieve physical IMMORTALITY, the Taoists invented the 'vitimin pill'. The Taoists obviously did not find Immortality but they did achieve longevity, which is why you see a lot of spry 90 year old Chinese doing chin-ups in playgrounds!!
IMMORTALITY is not some kind of mystic bunk, it is a scientific possibility!!!! It can be achieved by Science and there has been a lot of progress made so far. The Taoists were ahead of the curve.
So the is a religious symbol, invented by the Taoists, is very profound and is worth your time to study. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: DoctorAramis
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 10:58am
Just nit picking maybe but "Buddhism was imported into China from the West." That is only partially true as Buddhism originated in India and India is not generally considered 'the west' (but anyone east of India may be right when they say so )As far as your question goes "Why is there a Ram's Head on the end of a Cornucopia on what I believe is to be a Freemason memorial in the Boston Public Garden?" I am not very familiar with that particular artifact that you refer to but can say that as far as I know the 'masonic' symbolism does not include the Ram's head as far as I have come across. So your assumption that it may be related to a spurious branch of masonry may hold more water. I too am interested in the study of Freemasonry as an academic. In case you are interested there is always a possibility for you as a non mason to attend and maybe even present a paper on this or any other topic that may related to Freemasonry at the ICHF. The statement of purpose is as follows:( http://www.ichfonline.org/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ichfonline.org/ ) By holding a biennial conference open to the public, the main purpose of the ICHF is:
By the way I must say that I liked the fact that you persist in seeking answers to questions, I would be glad to answer any that I can and I know that there is a wealth of Knowledge in the forum.
 |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 2:10pm
Hi BroScubaSteve,
Actually, according to the following scholarly works, there is quite a bit Masonic about that fountain:
1. MASONIC SYMBOLS IN AMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS (1976)
American Heritage Museum
2. MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine Archetypes (2005) BY Julius Ruiz
3. THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study (1991) by James Steven Curl.
In fact, as you can read from these three works, Freemasonry has a recognizable art and architectural style and methodology which is recognized by other professionals. And that is why I am so insistant that memorial in the Boston Public Garden is as recognizable Neo-Classic Freemason art as Harvad University is of the Federalist style.
Other non-Mason 'Profanes?' individuals are obviously familiar with the outward appearances of Freemasonry to write books about it.
Please read the above small bibliography.
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/15/2013 at 3:37pm
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Grimoire, What exactly does the MASONIC SYMBOLS IN AMERICAN DECORATIVE ARTS say about the memorial in the Public Gardens? Also the MASONIC TEMPLES: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine Archetypes (2005) BY Julius Ruiz and THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF FREEMASONRY: an introductory study (1991) by James Steven Curl? |
Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: June/16/2013 at 1:00pm
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I find it funny that you ask a question about something and then decide to argue the response we give you. If you know the answer why are you asking us the question? Some would label it a troll thread and should be locked as such. ------------- Initiated 4-22-13 Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
Posted By: masonic.truths
Date Posted: June/16/2013 at 1:34pm
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What evidence do you have that George Robert White and Henry Bacon were Freemasons? I am not saying they were not, but I can not find anything on the internet that says White was a Freemason, and the only thing I find that says Henry Bacon was is in the article you referenced http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/" rel="nofollow - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2008/02/masons-have-nat/ . If you have evidence of their Masonic Membership please post the information such as the Lodge they were members of, degree dates, any information as far as their contributions to Freemasonry such as offices held. |
Posted By: coach
Date Posted: June/16/2013 at 4:12pm
To those untrained, the symbols used by any one organization or its members is often attributed to the organization by outside observers (and sometimes by those inside). Those who are well trained though realize that Masons use symbols that have been around long before the Fraternity came out of its closet and into the GL era. It is very easy to wrongly assume that the symbols used within the Fraternity originated there. That assumption would be wrong though. ------------- Building Builders - Masonic Education! http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall |
Posted By: NobleShabba
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 6:15am
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck doing research for yet another masonic book (on ourside or not, dont matter)
I think I am going to ignore this post from here on in... ------------- ---------------------- DISCLAIMER: These are my comments, and mine alone - they do not necessarily apply to any group to which I belong! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:22am
Thank you for that website, it seems very interesting. But I think you and I are on this forum for two different reasons. I am not doing research on all of Freemasonry, nor am I writing a book or a research paper. These are the only Real Masons I have contact with and so far they are pretty nice guys and are very tolerant of some unintentionally intrusive questions. And its all for my own personal self-edification - nothing else.
So whatever information I uncover I intend to keep it to myself and not share it with anyone else who is not a Mason, I am not trying to hurt a legitimate and beneficial fraternity with my dogged research techique (which I learned in graduate school: HIST UMASS 1987) or by accidentally letting the cat out of the bag. ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:48am
Hi BroScubaSteve,
When I ask a question on this site and I receive an answer that is inconsistent with several published Freemason works I have read, some of which were recommended on this very Mastermason forum, it tells me three things: 1. there is need for more clarification; 2. the Mason making a snap answer really doesn't know the answer, or 3. my question wasn't fully formed or it was misunderstood. And this is true of any research on any subject matter.
Since my 'discovery' of Freemasonry about two months ago I have read over two dozens books on Freemasonry most of which were written by 32 degree or 33 degree Masons, and there is disagreement even amongst them.
Some claim that accepted experts are now 'controversial' like Albert Pike or J. Ralston Skinner or J. D. Buck or Albert G. MacKay or Manly P. Hall or Jeremy L. Cross or John Kensey Stewart or Henry Wilson Coil or Joseph Fort Newton Arthur Edward Waite or John J. Robinson or Christopher Hodapp or Allen E. Roberts or Charles Clyde Hunt or Thomas Sargant or Mary Fairweather (The Passion Stroke 1906) or even George Oliver.
I have read books and manuals and essays by every one of these above listed authors, and there is no mutual consistency amongst them! And some have even disparaged another of these authors by name!!! For example, John J. Robinson in his PILGRIM'S PATH questions the validity of W. L. Wilmshurst's book: THE MEANING OF MASONRY, even though this book is still being given as a gift to a candidate who has been raised to the "sublime degree" in current lodges (I am holding such a copy in my hand which I found in a box of donated books at Emmanuel Church here in Boston from a 2007 ceremony 6008 A.L.).
So I am not a troll, this is not a troll thread, I am using legitimate research methods, and I am asking questions with experience in logical interpretation. It is obvious that not every Mason knows everything about the Craft and have not read every book on the subject - again this is true of any fraternity member or enthusiast. Thank you! ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:49am
------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:55am
Hi NobleShabba,
If it looks like a duck????
"THIS IS NOT A PIPE"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images
Then what is it?? Answer: It's a 'picture' of a Pipe!!
So if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, and swims like a duck - DOESN'T MEAN ITS A DUCK.
That is a logically fallacy called Guilt by Association, and it should be avoided at all costs (maybe our Wrongful Incarceration would go down?).
This lesson should be part of an initiation?? ------------- Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason! |
Posted By: CAMB.MASON
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 2:38pm
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My dear fellow brothers, it has been a while since I have written on this forum on a topic, last time was to vent, this time, well hopefully, it will not get much negative response. I was interested in this question by a fellow Massachusetts person, who came across something and asked, and like we all should, research, and ask, and seek further light. Nothing wrong with asking, and perhaps some wording was taken out of context, but I was interested in this piece, and just recently stopped by the Gardens to see it myself. I never knew about this fountain, and I have visited the Gardens since I was five years old, even falling into one of them as a youth, of course not listerning to my parents.
As a collector and part time curator I find many hidden Masonic references in items, even hidden esotric meanings in our early aprons, and charts and paintings. Like some early Masonic rituals and monitors, I have come across some liberties that some have done. It could be that some items could be taken from Freemasonry and added to or embellished upon. With the rich history that Boston offers, and the long history of Freemasonry here in Massachusetts, I am surprised that there are not more such clear or hidden Masonic items found. I have done tours in cemeteries, and looked at buildings and streets and places to see what connections they have with Freemasonry. It is interesting to a few, not all understand or want to understand or care to understand. I enjoyed this topic, and perhaps it will lead me to visit more of the Gardens to see if there are Masonic or Non-Masonic items around, in the open or hidden.
Thanks Grimoire for some further light. ------------- I remain Fraternally Yours: Curator & Historian Cambridge Masonic Temple Cambridge, Massachusetts |
Posted By: Effingham
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 3:39pm
You know, we also use chairs. That doesn't make "chairs associated with Freemasonry." For the record, though, you keep reframing the argument. Freemasonry *uses the established symbol* of a Cornucopia. We don't have a copyright on it.
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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 3:40pm
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I too welcome inquiries and discoveries from those outside of the Craft. I think Grimoire is sincere about his curiosity and it does not appear to me that he has ulterior motives. I would like it though if he would answer the questions I put to him twice previously: What do the publications he cites say about the Masonic nature of the memorial in the Boston Public Gardens and what pages is this information on? Also, I cannot find anything that says George Robert White was a Mason. That doesn't mean that he wasn't, but, Grimore, you state that he was. Where did you find this? Couple things I do notice about the memorial: As has been stated, the ram's head is not used in Masonry. Also, the cornucopias in the memorial are not of the style used in Masonry. They are much more elaborate and bend up 90 degrees, whereas those used in Masonry have a more or less 45 degree bend. |
Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: June/17/2013 at 11:28pm
Emphasis mine. Being a 32 or 33 Scottish Rite Mason does not impart any additional information on the Craft (blue) Lodge Degrees. By the way in the USA if you are member of the Scottish Rite you are 32 degree Scottish Rite Mason. The degrees are number for identification purposes and do not denote higher rank. It's like asking which is more a law enforcement officer: city officer, sheriff deputy, state trooper, park ranger, FBI agent, or DEA agent. ------------- MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF Living in the DC area. |