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Perfection - How is it attained?

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Topic: Perfection - How is it attained?
Posted By: GrimoireA3
Subject: Perfection - How is it attained?
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 4:36pm
Perfection: what is it? And can it be attained or is it an impossible abstraction to achieve? Thanx!

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!



Replies:
Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 5:20pm
Impossible to achieve.  Perfection comes only from the source.  It is unattainable to mankind.  

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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Impossible to achieve.  Perfection comes only from the source.  It is unattainable to mankind.  


What is that source?

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 5:51pm
All matter is energy condensed.  The source of that energy is what many have termed "god"  The true knowledge of which is inconceivable.  Believe whatever you will.  

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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection: what is it?

It is a word that has two distinct meanings.

One meaning focuses upon flawlessness; this is what most in a specific faith tend to be drawn into and adhere to.

The other focuses upon maturity, sanity, soundness, healthiness, completeness, or (the one I like most) suitability; and it is what far too many tend to avoid.

I lean toward the latter focus. Why? Because it is the focus of about 80 to 90 percent of the words in the Bible mistakenly translated to he word "perfect" that are thus taken to mean "flawless".

This is purposeful. I'll leave it to you as to why this was done this way.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

And can it be attained or is it an impossible abstraction to achieve?

That depends totally upon the meaning you assign to the word.

When you are biased toward believing it to mean "flawless", it shall appear to be unattainable. That is an insane trap and a good one to keep people in unnecessary shame and in hopeless activities.

When you are biased toward believing it means "maturity, sanity, soundness, healthiness, completeness, or suitability", it shall appear to be attainable. Of course, if you get into the mind set that one never stops a process, then you shall focus on the end and not the journey and that insane trap is equally damning.

However, if you were to realize a mature, sane, sound, healthy, complete, or suitable mindset as to the standard that you use to compare yourself, you'd realize the insane trap and merely dismiss it as having nothing to do with the reality you're engaging in and ideal you're comparing yourself to.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Thanx!

You're most welcome.

I use this question a lot: Would you rather depend upon a flawlessly immature person or a flawed mature, sane, sound, healthy, complete, or suitable person?

You define what "perfect" means to you and you shall suffer or be blessed accordingly.

http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/12/perfect-in-sanity.html" rel="nofollow - http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/12/perfect-in-sanity.html



-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 7:19pm
What is your definition of "perfection?"


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/26/2016 at 11:31pm
Actually you did ask what it was so I withdraw the question. I don't really know what it is, but I don't think it is an abstraction. I do think it is impossible to attain while on this Earth. As the Bible says, we are all sinners; even if one does not believe in the Bible I think the statement is true. I think we will leave this Earth imperfect beings and perhaps perfection will attained in what is to come. Who knows?


Posted By: WBScott
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 9:36am
I only know one person who was perfect and he died for our sins 2016 years ago.

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Wentzville (MO) Lodge #46 - PM
Pride of the West (MO) Lodge #179 - PM (twice)
Pauldingville (MO) Lodge #11 - Secretary
Warrenton (MO) Lodge #609 - Secretary
Past DDGM - 25th Masonic District


Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 10:24am
Umm...err...uh... No comment.

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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 10:49am
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

I only know one person who was perfect...


This is an article of faith, not fact.

Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

...and he died for our sins ...


If you are alluding to Who I think you are, I believe He taught us to take responsibility for our actions; not try to outrun them and allow someone else to suffer for our shortcomings. He lead by example; so few follow it.

Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

...2016 years ago.


I believe your math is off.

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Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

All matter is energy condensed.  The source of that energy is what many have termed "god"  The true knowledge of which is inconceivable.  Believe whatever you will.  


Thank you Adept?,

I've never heard of the primary event, or the singularity, or the Great Author of the universe, or any description of the Godhead referred to as 'the source' before; not in any philosophy or comparative religion course I've taken. So I'm glad I asked the question because I learned something new.

Now, this formulates a new question, based on logic: the 'if/then' conditional.

IF perfection is impossible for man to become,
THEN, how does this affect the process of making 'good men better'?.


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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 11:44am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...how does this affect the process of making 'good men better'?.

It shouldn't affect in one iota.

When a man is improved, he is bettered.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 11:59am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Actually you did ask what it was so I withdraw the question. I don't really know what it is, but I don't think it is an abstraction. I do think it is impossible to attain while on this Earth. As the Bible says, we are all sinners; even if one does not believe in the Bible I think the statement is true. I think we will leave this Earth imperfect beings and perhaps perfection will attained in what is to come. Who knows?


Hi Droche,

I'll answer this.

When I began Judo in 1968 we kids had to memorize (in both English & Japanese) that the ultimate goal of Judo as defined by the founder Dr. Jigoro Kano in 1882 was: "The harmonious development and eventual perfection of human character." And the practice of Judo provided a physical and tangible method of achieving that perfection. Which I did not doubt one bit then, or now.

Now - how do I define perfection? The removal of all vices from your value system.

I practiced the Judo value system all my life, including today: no booze, no drugs, no junk food, no promiscuity, no irresponsible behavior, keep your mouth shut, no smoking, be polite even under duress, have the ability to put thought into action, be stoic.

The consequence is all this will make you a dull boy. So moderation in all things might be the compromise.

So my definition of perfection for man is the willing removal of all vice from one's value system.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 12:01pm
@Coach,

Thank you for that great answer, and the time and effort and thought behind it.

Great learning experience for me.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...So my definition of perfection for man is the willing removal of all vice from one's value system.


What is your definition of vice?

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 12:32pm
Grimoire,

The removal of vice, however one defines it, from one's life is very laudable, don't get me wrong, however, will even the removal of vice remove sin (however one defines that) from a person? I am generally considered pretty straight-laced, to a fault, by some, but I still sin every day, in my estimation. I don't think I'll ever attain perfection in this life, perhaps not even in what is to come.

There is a teaching in the Scottish Rite that we strive for perfection. That implies to me that we will not ever attain it on this Earth.

Jesus Christ is considered perfection by many, but he is also considered by believers that he was not of this world. Even Him, when he drove the money changers out of the Temple in a fit of anger, was he being perfect? If I had done that I would look back and say, "Sheesh, I lost it." I don't know how He felt about it but... it seems to me to be out of character for Him.


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...So my definition of perfection for man is the willing removal of all vice from one's value system.


What is your definition of vice?


Hi Coach,

I actually anticipated that question.

Vice is the catalyst for entropy. Any action or viewpoint or ethic that causes harm or degrades you and your surroundings is a vice. A sort of second law of thermodynamics for ethics.


One suggestion I read in the Freemason literature which I really liked was "you have a moral obligation to improve yourself." So true. A nice maxim for perfection. The self-aware person knows the difference between right and wrong, and emphasizes the positives and eliminates the negatives.

My problem is that while I believe human character perfection can be achieved, but how does one tell when they've arrived? This is what makes it a continuous quest.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

My problem is that while I believe human character perfection can be achieved, but how does one tell when they've arrived? ...


1) Why is that a problem?
2) Arrive? Why must it be a destination?

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

The removal of vice, however one defines it, from one's life is very laudable, don't get me wrong, however, will even the removal of vice remove sin (however one defines that) from a person? I am generally considered pretty straight-laced, to a fault, by some, but I still sin every day, in my estimation. I don't think I'll ever attain perfection in this life, perhaps not even in what is to come.

There is a teaching in the Scottish Rite that we strive for perfection. That implies to me that we will not ever attain it on this Earth.

Jesus Christ is considered perfection by many, but he is also considered by believers that he was not of this world. Even Him, when he drove the money changers out of the Temple in a fit of anger, was he being perfect? If I had done that I would look back and say, "Sheesh, I lost it." I don't know how He felt about it but... it seems to me to be out of character for Him.


Hi Droche,

Excellent rebuttal. And I purposely used my Judo experience to avoid religion and provide a secular source of ethics for the achievement of perfection. Theologians refer to this as 'secular humanism' which seems to be replacing religious ethics amongst developed nations.

Now for the religious view. Sin. According to the faith system I am most familiar, Roman Catholicism or more accurate - Western Rite Catholicism - the least number of sins I commit, the better. Kinda like a demerit system, and no Catholic knows he's going to get into heaven or heck until judgement. Perfection for a man is not even a consideration for a Catholic! Of the Holy Trinity only God the father is perfect (not Jesus). God made the angels 'perfect' yet Jesus was the word made flesh, imperfections and all.

Of the four Holy Gospels (I'm keeping this in a religious vein) Matthew saw Jesus as a teacher(?); Mark saw Jesus as a priest(?); Luke saw Jesus as God (?); and John saw Jesus as a man (?). But Jesus is seen as flawed in all four Catholic interpretations, i.e., not perfect. The Protestants and 'Christians' - all 30,000 denominations in America - interpret differently.

So there is no argument for perfection if you adopt the religious viewpoint of sin being a stumbling block to perfection. And that requires a 'personal' God and not the cosmological God as viewed by Deism.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

My problem is that while I believe human character perfection can be achieved, but how does one tell when they've arrived? ...


1) Why is that a problem?
2) Arrive? Why must it be a destination?


1. It's a problem because you might take perfection for granted, and without the realization that you've arrived at perfection, you might stop striving for it and lapse back into vice (entropy). Neutralizing all you've achieved.



2. Arrive? Why must it be a destination?

Because mainstream philosophy and history have proven that time and human events is teological (linear as in a straight line), therefore has a beginning and an end - thus a destination.

All 'mainstream' academics accept this linear model and reject the non-teological view of history repeating itself or of time looping around itself. The historian Toynbee proposed the thesis that history is repetitive and repeats itself, but was marginalized for his efforts (along with the cryptozoologists and the flat earth society).

Time travel is feasible according to physicists (an MIT lecture I sat in on during IAP) but only forward or backward, not circular.

So a 'destination' is both a physical and metaphysical actuality. A 'factual actual'.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...how does this affect the process of making 'good men better'?.

It shouldn't affect in one iota.

When a man is improved, he is bettered.


Thanks Coach,

Yes bettered, but not perfected. Cannot good men become better than 'better', or is that the end of it?

But then again, is perfection the enemy of 'better'? Is striving for perfection utopic?

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by WBScott WBScott wrote:

I only know one person who was perfect and he died for our sins 2016 years ago.


Hi WBScott,

I noticed Mastermason.com has a White Shrine Forum for Christian Master Masons and Family Members.

As I explained above, I am a 'cradle Catholic' born into the Roman Catholic faith - and I state that because Catholicism is the religion I am most familiar. Now I am a very lapse Catholic having severe issues with the practice of my faith.

Again, as I described above us Catholics don't see Christ as perfect, but very flawed during his ministry on Earth.

Yet in my secular empirical opinion human perfection is attainable, though on a case by case individual level.

So there are two routes I see:

I. Perfection can be achieved based on a secular ethics made possible by a faraway 'cosmological God as proposed by the Deists.

'OR'

II. Sin prevents man from ever achieving perfection because of a close-up personal God shepherding his children, causing the to strive for but never achieving perfection, as practiced n all of Christiandom.

Was denken Sie?

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 6:47pm
Grimoire,

I highly suspect you used a secular example of perfection because you didn't want to raise any hackles, but really, if we take the spiritual, the concept of a higher form of being out of the equation, can we even begin to conceive the concept of perfection? It would seem to me that if we take that out of the equation, we are headed in the opposite direction of perfection. 

I know a lot will disagree with me but I take comfort in Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Soviet author who lived under an atheistic regime. When he fled the Soviet Union and came to this country, he said that a big reason why the Soviet system failed was because it lacked a spiritual basis. This was a system that boasted Utopia for the people. When he said that, many of his fans left him in droves. But he lived it first-hand and I think he was on to something.


Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,
...a big reason why the Soviet system failed was because it lacked a spiritual basis.

I'd call that the opinion of a religious person who felt he; and the people, were in need of such a system.  
Historically speaking... there has been copious amounts of torture, murder, and outright war in the name of god/religion.  One group against another group... because they believe different things.  It's not just history... look at current events.  It's sickening.  Why can't we all just coexist together in harmony?  Live and let live.  It's a pretty simple concept really....At a loss




-------------
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: March/27/2016 at 11:03pm
Perfection isn't a thing it is a concept.

Take flying a perfect anvil would be useless. The idea of perfection changes based on the situation so we can never reach it. So the perfect man may still fall short in numerous given situations because his perfection wasn't suited for it.

Even morals there is not perfect answer. I asked people is it wrong to push ladies, most would say yes. However, what if the lady was about the be killed and you pushing her saved her life.

Life is so fluid that a set standard is a guide towards betterment but not perfection.

This and 10 bucks will get you a fancy coffee drink at Starbucks.

Side note: The Bible doesn't talk about heck it talks about hell. This is just a personal aggravation. It's not sinful for a Christian to talk about things within our Holy Book.

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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF

Living in the DC area.


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 6:31am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

My problem is that while I believe human character perfection can be achieved, but how does one tell when they've arrived? ...


1) Why is that a problem?
2) Arrive? Why must it be a destination?


1. It's a problem because you might take perfection for granted, and without the realization that you've arrived at perfection, you might stop striving for it and lapse back into vice (entropy). Neutralizing all you've achieved.

Would that not once again depend upon how you define the word.

One may never realize flawlessness, but if we work at it, we can achieve maturity, wholeness, soundness, sanity, completeness and suitability. That is not a problem, unless it is not worked toward.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

2. Arrive? Why must it be a destination?

Because mainstream philosophy and history have proven that time and human events is teological (linear as in a straight line), therefore has a beginning and an end - thus a destination.

All 'mainstream' academics accept this linear model and reject the non-teological view of history repeating itself or of time looping around itself. The historian Toynbee proposed the thesis that history is repetitive and repeats itself, but was marginalized for his efforts (along with the cryptozoologists and the flat earth society).

Time travel is feasible according to physicists (an MIT lecture I sat in on during IAP) but only forward or backward, not circular.

So a 'destination' is both a physical and metaphysical actuality. A 'factual actual'.


I believe all this dogma purposefully derails the perfecting process and places it as a destination mindset rather than a manner and engaged in journey.

If you are saying your destination mindset is a must based upon mainstream teachings, then you have lost your will to the captures.


-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 6:36am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

...how does this affect the process of making 'good men better'?.

It shouldn't affect in one iota.

When a man is improved, he is bettered.


Thanks Coach,

Yes bettered, but not perfected. {Q1:} Cannot good men become better than 'better', or {Q2:} is that the end of it?


A1: Yes.

A2: Once again, it is not a destination. It is a process embraced by far too few.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

But then again, is perfection the enemy of 'better'?


No. Perfection is a process that brings about betterment. Again, it all depends upon how you define the word.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Is striving for perfection utopic?


No. It is the character of a person who aspires toward personal improvement, one step at a time.


-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 9:24am
Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

Perfection isn't a thing it is a concept.
.

And so is 'better' just a concept, not a thing.

Good, better, best are gradations of 'perfection'. And they are ideas not things just like numbers, they are concepts and not tangible objects.

So how does one make "good men better" if 'good' and 'better' are not things but just concepts, just like 'perfection' is just a concept?

Don't get me wrong. I have witnessed good men becoming better dozens of times in my life. Character improvement is the purpose of psychologists, social workers, prison reform, Boy Scouts, etc. etc. And the fact that Freemasonry claims a purpose of making good men better is an attraction for me to the Craft. It is my humble opinion that you can go a step further than good, better, best and actually reach perfection.

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

The idea of perfection changes based on the situation so we can never reach it. So the perfect man may still fall short in numerous given situations because his perfection wasn't suited for it.


Yes, perfection is subjective. As I mentioned in a previous thread, how does one know when they've arrived at perfection? So perfection is determined by the system which strives for it. How does one know when a good man has become better??? What's the criteria for betterment, as opposed to perfection? It is a subjective condition.

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

Even morals there is not perfect answer. I asked people is it wrong to push ladies, most would say yes. However, what if the lady was about the be killed and you pushing her saved her life.


I think that is using morality in two distinct different applications.

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

Life is so fluid that a set standard is a guide towards betterment but not perfection.


Again, why can one become 'better' but not perfect?

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

This and 10 bucks will get you a fancy coffee drink at Starbucks.


All opinions are valuable. Thank you for yours.

I MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY, BUT I'LL FIGHT TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT. -- Emily Beecher Stowe.

Originally posted by goomba goomba wrote:

Side note: The Bible doesn't talk about heck it talks about hell. This is just a personal aggravation. It's not sinful for a Christian to talk about things within our Holy Book.


Yes, thank you goomba. I was trying not to be profane.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 9:36am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Grimoire,

I highly suspect you used a secular example of perfection because you didn't want to raise any hackles,


I was trying to be both objective and give a neutral secular example before going into religious explanations, which can become emotional.


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

but really, if we take the spiritual, the concept of a higher form of being out of the equation, can we even begin to conceive the concept of perfection? It would seem to me that if we take that out of the equation, we are headed in the opposite direction of perfection. 


But I haven't taken a higher form of being out of the equation.

Secular humanists believe there is a God. But they don't adhere to any religious doctrine of morals or dogma or laws.

Religion does not have a monopoly on God, spirituality, nor morality. Pagans, Satanists, Wiccans, Voodooists, heretics, and their ilk can be quite spiritual, though you might disagree with that spirituality.

And I have yet to mention atheism. Deists are not atheists. The atheist claims that God has never existed in the first place, and that man and the universe came about through natural physical and chemical processes randomly over vast eons of time not through the exertions of any God.

The Deist believes God exists, God created man and the universe, but then God left and man is now on his own devices. God still exists, but he's far away in some other universe, galaxy, or dimension doing his thing. That is called the 'Cosmological God'.


Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I know a lot will disagree with me but I take comfort in Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Soviet author who lived under an atheistic regime. When he fled the Soviet Union and came to this country, he said that a big reason why the Soviet system failed was because it lacked a spiritual basis. This was a system that boasted Utopia for the people. When he said that, many of his fans left him in droves. But he lived it first-hand and I think he was on to something.


Communism and socialism are untenable (doesn't work when put into practice) for several very good economic and social reasons, atheism being one of them.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 9:52am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   Would that not once again depend upon how you define the word.


Its really not a matter of semantics. The word 'perfection' has already been defined. Synonyms like 'flawless' are not a redefinition but a literary option.

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

One may never realize flawlessness, but if we work at it, we can achieve maturity, wholeness, soundness, sanity, completeness and suitability. That is not a problem, unless it is not worked toward.


Again, flawless and perfection are not the same thing, they are synonyms but not the same definition.





Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I believe all this dogma purposefully derails the perfecting process and places it as a destination mindset rather than a manner and engaged in journey.


Nothing 'dogmatic' about proven and accepted hypothesis by mainstream academia.

Coach - You don't want to marginalize yourself with revisionisms.

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you are saying your destination mindset is a must based upon mainstream teachings, then you have lost your will to the captures.


My 'destination mindset' is based on accepted and proven teology by academia as taught in universities and has withstood peer review.

I do not know what you mean by "the captures"??

I am as open minded as the next guy and receptive to new ideas as long as those new ideas pass peer review, and are clear and rigorous. Again, I could use an explanation of 'captures'?? Thank you.


-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 9:59am



Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

There is a teaching in the Scottish Rite that we strive for perfection. That implies to me that we will not ever attain it on this Earth.



That is beautiful. Scottish rite is right (pun intended)

Academic fence sitting is common within any ideological or political systems of thought. America is 'striving' for democracy for example, as a convenient way of avoiding commitment.

Since I am not a Freemason I am not violating any code of ethics by contradicting the Scottish Rite - I think they're wrong and we can become perfect. Again, that is just a strong opinion.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 10:08am


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Once again, it is not a destination. [/coach]

Oops, reached an impasse here. It has been proven to be a destination. So we gotta agree to disagree.



Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

No. Perfection is a process that brings about betterment. Again, it all depends upon how you define the word.


Again, you cannot redefine a word to suit your argument - rule of debate. So again we must agree to disagree.



[QUOTE=coach] No. It is the character of a person who aspires toward personal improvement, one step at a time.


Thank you. It is journey taken one step at a time, from good to better to best, that one arrives at the destination of perfection.


-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 10:30am


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

I'd call that the opinion of a religious person who felt he; and the people, were in need of such a system.


Here's the phenomenon: If there was no need of religion for the human condition, then it wouldn't exist. Religion does provide a need to some people (but not all people).

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Historically speaking... there has been copious amounts of torture, murder, and outright war in the name of god/religion.


Yes, because Church & State were not separated. The American patriots separated church & state in 1789, yet before that your religion was your politics and nationality. In the 1600s the Massachusetts Bay Colony was a religious colony and Cotton Mather held trial on you for heresy. Here in Boston in 1640s Mary Dwyer was hanged in Boston Common for being a Quaker, and dozens of Baptists were also hanged in the common (for being Baptist). In 1690s Salem a hundred and ten men & women (and a dog) were hanged for witch craft.

So you don't have to go too far back in time or distance to find people being killed for religious reasons (equal to sedition or betrayal or being a traitor).

The six Holy Inquisitions, i.e. counter-reformation, was a much a political event (like firing squads for traitors) to prevent the spread of Protestantism over Europe as it was to stifle heresy.

Today in 2016 there are religious adherents who still do not separate church from state. They practice 'canon law' (religious law) like Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, and the Vatican. So that is why secular nations like the USA (common law, not canon law) and Europe are getting whacked by people who do not separate their religion from their race or politics or nation. Quite the motivation.

So how does one eliminate religion???



Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Why can't we all just coexist together in harmony?  Live and let live.
 

"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -- Socrates

As long as violence or war serves as political leverage for national policy, there will be no harmony in our life time.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 10:48am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   Would that not once again depend upon how you define the word.


Its really not a matter of semantics. The word 'perfection' has already been defined. Synonyms like 'flawless' are not a redefinition but a literary option.


I disagree! It IS a matter of Semantics, as in: The meaning that YOU are assigning to the word. The defining YOU choose determines the meaning.

You choose "flawless" as your definition. I understand the meaning only AFTER you assign that definition to what you convey.

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

One may never realize flawlessness, but if we work at it, we can achieve maturity, wholeness, soundness, sanity, completeness and suitability. That is not a problem, unless it is not worked toward.


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Again, flawless and perfection are not the same thing, they are synonyms but not the same definition.

yup

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I believe all this dogma purposefully derails the perfecting process and places it as a destination mindset rather than a manner and engaged in journey.


Nothing 'dogmatic' about proven and accepted hypothesis by mainstream academia.


It is when it is marginalized by those who do not understand the basis of their work.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Coach - You don't want to marginalize yourself with revisionisms.


Me? I don't get involved in such nonsense.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

If you are saying your destination mindset is a must based upon mainstream teachings, then you have lost your will to the captures.


My 'destination mindset' is based on accepted and proven teology by academia as taught in universities and has withstood peer review.


It is still your choice to be captivated by it.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I do not know what you mean by "the captures"??


Once you embrace it and support it, you're captured by it and by choice.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I am as open minded as the next guy and receptive to new ideas as long as those new ideas pass peer review, and are clear and rigorous. Again, I could use an explanation of 'captures'?? Thank you.


Okay

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 11:18am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Once again, it is not a destination.
Oops, reached an impasse here. It has been proven to be a destination. So we gotta agree to disagree.


Understood. In the context I referred to this originally, it is not. That's the definition I chose to assign to it.

But it is clear that you are claiming that it must be a destination and that it cannot possibly be an engaged in process.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

No. Perfection is a process that brings about betterment. Again, it all depends upon how you define the word.
Again, you cannot redefine a word to suit your argument - rule of debate. So again we must agree to disagree.

You are mistaken if you believe we are engaged in a debate. I am not debating, although you may be. I am sharing my view. What you view as a "redefining", I view as an assignment of an already accepted and promulgated definition. You don't have to accept that assignment, but it is an accepted definition.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

No. It is the character of a person who aspires toward personal improvement, one step at a time.
Thank you. It is journey taken one step at a time, from good to better to best, that one arrives at the destination of perfection.

In the context I made comment upon initially, it is not a destination. It can be a destination, depending on the meaning you assign to it, but it isn't necessarily one. Out of context though, it's just non-sense tail chasing.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 11:46am



Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I do not know what you mean by "the captures"??


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Once you embrace it and support it, you're captured by it and by choice.



Thanks for that explanation. Goes into my notebook.



-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection: what is it? And can it be attained or is it an impossible abstraction to achieve? Thanx!
most employers have it. I'll give you my Boss' cell number and you can ask him.


-------------
Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ


Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: March/28/2016 at 3:55pm
ROTFL

-------------
"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/29/2016 at 7:16am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

most employers have it.


Is that true under Masonic teachings? That the employer has a special affinity towards the perfect?

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: March/29/2016 at 8:59am
Moral Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. It is an opinion unlike the scientific definition of perfection.

You have to remember that the tools given to a Mason are for him to work on himself and himself only. With that understanding, a man's pursuit to better himself masonically may will be different than the man sitting next to him.

This will absolutely cause a differing opinion in what someone considers perfection from a moral standpoint.

Men may agree in principle that they have approached perfection, but there is no way to actually touch and or tell if they actually got there.




-------------
Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/29/2016 at 9:35am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

most employers have it.


Is that true under Masonic teachings? That the employer has a special affinity towards the perfect?

Sorry. That's a secret.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/29/2016 at 9:54am
I'm not sure what they mean by "employer." To the best of my knowledge, there is no Masonic teaching that directly refers to an employer. My interpretation of Masonic teachings as would regard an employer would be to be straightforward and honest with an employer, and give him a fair day's work. Of course, one should also expect an employer, especially if he is a Mason, to be straightforward and honest with his employees and give them a fair day's wages.

This discussion of perfection reminds me of calculus. You know, a function approaches "0" but never quite reaches it. I think it is the same with perfection. One case where the spiritual meets the physical in this universe.


Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: March/29/2016 at 10:24am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I'm not sure what they mean by "employer." To the best of my knowledge, there is no Masonic teaching that directly refers to an employer. My interpretation of Masonic teachings as would regard an employer would be to be straightforward and honest with an employer, and give him a fair day's work. Of course, one should also expect an employer, especially if he is a Mason, to be straightforward and honest with his employees and give them a fair day's wages.

This discussion of perfection reminds me of calculus. You know, a function approaches "0" but never quite reaches it. I think it is the same with perfection. One case where the spiritual meets the physical in this universe.
I was mentioning my Boss for comedic effect. It had zero masonic reference behind it. Unless your reply was also in jest and it went over my head.


-------------
Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/29/2016 at 3:25pm
I suspected your reply was in jest, but I wasn't sure if Grimoire thought it was. He seemed to be asking a serious question and I did not want him to be mislead.

My reply was not in jest. And I can see how my reply was imperfect. i should have said how the limit of a function approaches "0." I was waiting for math experts to get me on that,


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/30/2016 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. That's a secret.


You can tell me. I'm perfect.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 5:31am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Is that true under Masonic teachings? That the employer has a special affinity towards the perfect?
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. That's a secret.


You can tell me. I'm perfect.

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 7:24am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 7:29am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

This discussion of perfection reminds me of calculus. You know, a function approaches "0" but never quite reaches it. I think it is the same with perfection. One case where the spiritual meets the physical in this universe.


Great answer! The 'nexus' - the connection. Could it be as brought out by droche that the definition of perfect is the nexus between spiritual and physical?

Wow, you Masons are smart.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 7:44am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Moral Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. It is an opinion unlike the scientific definition of perfection.


Good for you. Seems to be the bottom line. Example, when a Buddhist monk seeks enlightenment he studies the Sutras or meditates over an assigned paradox (a 'koan'). Then he must pass a verbal test in front of several senior 'Enlightened' monks by correctly and creatively answering several pointed questions about their faith, or solving the 'koan'. The determination that one has become 'enlightened' is purely subjective, based on the opinions of the review board. So it seems with becoming morally 'perfect'.



Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Men may agree in principle that they have approached perfection, but there is no way to actually touch and or tell if they actually got there.


I think you captured the essence of this dilemma. Good for you!







[/QUOTE]

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 9:03am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.

<snicker> You knew it was coming.

Let me know what is your interest BEFORE you purchase so that I can recommend one of the 11 that are available.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: scout
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 11:59am
Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.


Thanks. Where are you located Brother Scout?

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
Great answer! The 'nexus' - the connection. Could it be as brought out by droche that the definition of perfect is the nexus between spiritual and physical?

Wow, you Masons are smart.

I would think it would be closer to the union of the physical with the spiritual and not just the bridge between the two. 


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Perfection: what is it? And can it be attained or is it an impossible abstraction to achieve? Thanx!

Aside from the definition you accept and apply toward both your question and your mission, you must also carefully deal with and establish a specific standard by which to measure or guide you.

If you do not, you'll chase the horizon.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.

<snicker> You knew it was coming.

Let me know what is your interest BEFORE you purchase so that I can recommend one of the 11 that are available.


Dear Dr. Nagy,

I did not know you were a Phd.

Thank you for your recommendation.

Since I do not know enough about Freemasonry to have a specific interest, I had just planned to start at the beginning with volume 1. Amazon.com carries your works at $25.0 each, and when I finished with them I was going to donate them to the library at the Grand Lodge on Tremont Street here in Boston, (which I have walked past most of my life).

Thanx again.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: March/31/2016 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.

<snicker> You knew it was coming.

Let me know what is your interest BEFORE you purchase so that I can recommend one of the 11 that are available.


Dear Dr. Nagy,

I did not know you were a Phd.

Thank you for your recommendation.

Since I do not know enough about Freemasonry to have a specific interest, I had just planned to start at the beginning with volume 1. Amazon.com carries your works at $25.0 each, and when I finished with them I was going to donate them to the library at the Grand Lodge on Tremont Street here in Boston, (which I have walked past most of my life).

Thanx again.

GrimoireA3,

It's not a Phd. at all. It's a D. Min., but thanks for checking.

If you wish to save a few $s, you can obtain them directly from my website at http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilder.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilder.htm

Volume one is a great overview. The first four books are in catechism form and are designed to both inform and to train.

Your donation will benefit many members. KUDOS!

Coach

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

http://www.coach.net/BuildingBuilders.htm" rel="nofollow - Books I Wrote | http://www.facebook.com/johns.nagy" rel="nofollow - My FB Wall


Posted By: scout
Date Posted: April/01/2016 at 9:13am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.


Thanks. Where are you located Brother Scout?


Dunedin Lodge #192


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/01/2016 at 9:39am
Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by scout scout wrote:

Looking forward to hearing you speak at our lodge in the near future, brother.

Thanks. Where are you located Brother Scout?

Dunedin Lodge #192

May 21, 2016 is going to be a BLAST! I love that is it local.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 11:10am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.


O.K., just ordered a used copy of Building Janus from amazon.com (because I have a account with them). Should arrive next week.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 11:54am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason.



Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach.

Now I must purchase one of your books.


O.K., just ordered a used copy of Building Janus from amazon.com (because I have a account with them). Should arrive next week.

MM level stuff. Brace yourself.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 11:56am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

This discussion of perfection reminds me of calculus. You know, a function approaches "0" but never quite reaches it. I think it is the same with perfection. One case where the spiritual meets the physical in this universe.


Great answer! The 'nexus' - the connection. Could it be as brought out by droche that the definition of perfect is the nexus between spiritual and physical?

Wow, you Masons are smart.

Nah... Just a bunch of wise-guys.   

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 12:36pm
So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.

Yet, the creation itself is perfect.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 2:37pm
How can we know that?


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?

Has it failed to exist so far?

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Nah... Just a bunch of wise guys.


And wisdom comes with age. And Freemasonry is how old? Very old, and as far as my three years of readings and research - very wise, a different kind of wisdom than what I'm used to.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.


droche,

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Nah... Just a bunch of wise guys.


And wisdom comes with age. And Freemasonry is how old?


Only about 300 years. Don't buy the stories about being older. That's all lore.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

[QUOTE=coach]Very old, and as far as my three years of readings and research - very wise, a different kind of wisdom than what I'm used to.


Don't confuse the illusion with the reality.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?


We can't. Humans must accept it 'a priori' on faith. And that is the basis on both Christianity and science. Scientists have a lot of 'faith' in their theories. So if God is just a 'theory' according to atheists, then what do atheists base their trust in theories? According to falsifiable thesis, they (atheists) haven't a perfect leg to stand on.

[quote] Only a fool doesn't believe in God. [unquote] -- The Sacred Book of Law

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Don't confuse the illusion with the reality.


Oooohhh!   Interesting. But isn't all reality just an illusion???

And this is both taught and accepted at MIT's physics and philosophy departments (which I hang out and attend lectures - sorry to name drop but I'm over there all the time and had worked there for two years).

What did Neils Bohr tell Einstein at the Copenhagen conference? - that atoms are not 'things'! (pssst - they are 'wavelengths').

And coach, with your degrees in the advanced sciences, you know better!!

So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

MM level stuff. Brace yourself.


Pardon my ignorance -- MM level??



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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?

Has it failed to exist so far?

No, it hasn't if I am reading your post right. But how does that mean that creation was/is perfect? I am not denying it, just asking, how do we know for sure?


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.

OK, I'll look him up, but I'll take your word that Cantor proved mathematically that infinity exists. I can see that.

I am actually thinking outside the Masonic box. My thoughts on all this are my own and very little, if any comes from Masonic teachings. Remember, Masonic teachings all boil down to how we treat our brothers and the rest of humanity. They don't directly get into all this deep philosophical and mathematical stuff. There is an area of Masonic thought that some call "Esoteric Masonry" that gets into numbers, astrology and all that but anything I get out of that leads me to believe that it is all quite speculative. I am not denying that some or all of it might be true, but when we get into that stuff a lot of people miss the forest because of the individual trees, in my own opinion. The forest being that Freemasonry exists to make good men better. Period.


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?


We can't. Humans must accept it 'a priori' on faith. And that is the basis on both Christianity and science. Scientists have a lot of 'faith' in their theories. So if God is just a 'theory' according to atheists, then what do atheists base their trust in theories? According to falsifiable thesis, they (atheists) haven't a perfect leg to stand on.

[quote] Only a fool doesn't believe in God. [unquote] -- The Sacred Book of Law

I don't think God is a theory. I have a very deep belief that he exists. It would not surprise me if his creation was perfect, and I lean toward thinking it was. I'm just thinking, so what if it wasn't? It's irrelevant to me. It wouldn't lessen my estimation of God in any way, shape or form.


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Don't confuse the illusion with the reality.


Oooohhh!   Interesting. But isn't all reality just an illusion???

And this is both taught and accepted at MIT's physics and philosophy departments (which I hang out and attend lectures - sorry to name drop but I'm over there all the time and had worked there for two years).

What did Neils Bohr tell Einstein at the Copenhagen conference? - that atoms are not 'things'! (pssst - they are 'wavelengths').

And coach, with your degrees in the advanced sciences, you know better!!

So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?


I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

How can we know that?
Has it failed to exist so far?


No, it hasn't if I am reading your post right. But how does that mean that creation was/is perfect? I am not denying it, just asking, how do we know for sure?


Bro.,

It was designed and created to do exactly what it does.

Just because we humans don't like what it was designed and created to do and mistakenly believe that it could be better in some way, does not mean that it is not perfect.

It was designed to be what it is and do what it does.

And it is perfect in that respect in every way.

This include every single thing that we could possibly condemn as imperfect. <scoff> As if we knew God's intent in these little distracting misunderstood things.

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 6:52pm
That's right, we don't know God's intent. So, for all we know, it could have been his intent to make it imperfect, for whatever reason, we wouldn't know. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if it were perfect, and I do lean that way... but I don't think God will think any less of me for asking... If He does, then maybe I'll get a good slap when I come face to face with my Judge.

We're not that far off in our views. 


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

That's right, we don't know God's intent. So, for all we know, it could have been his intent to make it imperfect, for whatever reason, we wouldn't know. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if it were perfect, and I do lean that way... but I don't think God will think any less of me for asking... If He does, then maybe I'll get a good slap when I come face to face with my Judge.

We're not that far off in our views. 

Agreed on all accounts. Although I suspect all is perfectly in motion and as it was intended.

-------------
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Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 7:38pm
Just a quick thought: I do not believe that even God has what we humans believe to be this bogus concept of perfection. Creation is on going and even God, in his perfect effort, creates "not good" conditions that require further perfecting.

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 8:12pm
Yes, I agree. If God did create an imperfect world, then that was his intent, and in that sense he was being perfect. I'm just wondering if God created something and let it go, so to speak, to see where it led. But these are just ramblings and musings on my part. One has to admit though, this thread makes one think...


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/02/2016 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Yes, I agree. If God did create an imperfect world, then that was his intent, and in that sense he was being perfect. I'm just wondering if God created something and let it go, so to speak, to see where it led. But these are just ramblings and musings on my part. One has to admit though, this thread makes one think...


There was one "not good" condition that He created and then made effort to remedy. He failed until He knocked his focus out to remedy the condition.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/03/2016 at 8:51am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
 But isn't all reality just an illusion???

Perhaps it is in the final analysis, but Freemasonry doesn't get into such high level physics and philosophy. I think this is where people who are not Masons (and some who are) that study Freemasonry get lost in the forest because of the trees. Freemasonry is a practical morality system with which we can deal with life as it exists on this Earth. That is reality for the here and now. For example, if a branch falls and hits one on the head, one can't say that is an illusion and walk away as if nothing happened.

Quote So I respectfully request, how does Freemasonry distinguish the signal from the noise? -- i.e. reality from illusion?

Coach gave an answer to this but I'll add my own take. Freemasonry doesn't distinguish reality from illusion in the sense you are speaking of, i.e. all reality is just an illusion. Freemasonry deals with only reality as we know it. This is just based on my experience.


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/03/2016 at 10:15am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

Coach gave an answer to this but I'll add my own take.



Thank you droche. I realized to late that I interpreted coach's use of 'illusion' out of context so I owe coach an apology.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/03/2016 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

So, I'm thinking more about the analogy between the calculus and perfection. And I thought about what is the smallest number. There is none. We can take the smallest number we can think of, say, the size of an atomic quark. We can still keep cutting it in half for eternity and never reach the end. Same with perfection. We can think of the "most perfect" we can imagine but can still make it better through eternity and never reach the end of that. I think this illustrates why  I don't think perfection can be attained in this universe.


droche,

Important. Please read 'Cantor', a Jewish philosopher/mathematician who actually 'proved' that Infinity exists. Infinity is no longer a concept, it is a fact. Cantor proved that 'Infinity' is not as simple as just adding 1 to a long string of numbers (that's for undergraduates at college), but it is an equation named 'aleph' (Hebrew) by Dr. Cantor.

Learn to think outside of the box (even the Masonic box) if you are to achieve perfection.


The name is Georg[sic] Cantor. No 'e' after George.

-------------
Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/03/2016 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.


Sorry coach I wasn't trying to misguide you. I misinterpreted your good explanation using 'illusion' to make a point. My apologies.


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.


Now I understand your use of 'illusion' which I initially took out of context. Again, sorry about that!


Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.


Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/03/2016 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

I shall not be misguided down your offered rabbit hole or be derailed into discussions about the nature of reality. Freemasonry presents a signal and a noise, but what most experience of both is not within context and hence is utterly misunderstood as to what it truly is to all those who imbibe.


Sorry coach I wasn't trying to misguide you. I misinterpreted your good explanation using 'illusion' to make a point. My apologies.


Unnecessary, but received in the spirit of intent. Thank you.
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

In other words, what you think Freemasonry is is the illusion that most within and without the society embrace. It is not real outside the confines of the theater it is within. It is only real if you accept the illusion and you, like so many others, won't know that you are fooling yourself because of some underlying assumptions that are misleading at best.


Now I understand your use of 'illusion' which I initially took out of context. Again, sorry about that!

Unnecessary as well, and thank you anyway.

Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

You might have picked the wrong starter book. "The Craft Unmasked!" would better clarify the illusion that you have been embracing about Freemasonry.


Yes, thank you. As a means of apologizing and to learn, I am ordering a copy of 'The Craft Unmasked - The Uncommon Origin of Freemasonry and its Practice' (2014) by Dr. John S. Nagy; through Amazon (because I have an established account with them). I would be less than perfect otherwise.

KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

-------------
Building Builders - Masonic Education!

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Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/04/2016 at 2:09pm

Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

KUDOS! Of all the books that you shall ever read about the origins and practices of the Freemasonic organization, this one will serve as a base line into your future and a standard to measure all others spouting theories based upon conjecture.

It shall blow you away and you'll love every moment of it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.


I ordered THE CRAFT UNMASKED today, its on its way. Thanks again.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/04/2016 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't think God is a theory. I have a very deep belief that he exists. It would not surprise me if his creation was perfect, and I lean toward thinking it was. I'm just thinking, so what if it wasn't? It's irrelevant to me. It wouldn't lessen my estimation of God in any way, shape or form.


I don't think God is just a theory either. But the atheists do think God is just a theory. And it is the atheists that I give constant debate.

"There are no atheists in foxholes".

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/05/2016 at 9:18am
I seem to have reinvented the wheel with this post.

coach's prior post: Perfect in Sanity, already addressed this issue.

The Fit Foil Foul Fits Fitly

Every academic discipline has its own 'jargon' - similar words that are given a different meaning according to the discipline. So the word 'culture' is used differently by the biologist and the anthropologist. The astronomer speaks of 'space' differently than the architect speaks of 'space'. And each discipline develops its own jargon (or nomenclature).

As for Masonic jargon, the meaning of 'perfect' from coach: "Research shows that the multitude of words [4] most commonly and generically translated to the word 'perfect' reflect more accurately a general meaning of Complete, Mature, Healthy, Sound, and Sane rather than the very often specific and misguided claim of Flawless."

And thanks to coach, I now see the light of the meaning of perfection in Masonry.

In my copy of Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia (1961) under 'perfect' it says, see Ashlar, perfect. And coach gave a further clear and rigorous explanation of the rough and perfect ashlar. So cool.

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/05/2016 at 10:35am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

I seem to have reinvented the wheel with this post.

coach's prior post: Perfect in Sanity, already addressed this issue.

The Fit Foil Foul Fits Fitly

Every academic discipline has its own 'jargon' - similar words that are given a different meaning according to the discipline. So the word 'culture' is used differently by the biologist and the anthropologist. The astronomer speaks of 'space' differently than the architect speaks of 'space'. And each discipline develops its own jargon (or nomenclature).

As for Masonic jargon, the meaning of 'perfect' from coach: "Research shows that the multitude of words [4] most commonly and generically translated to the word 'perfect' reflect more accurately a general meaning of Complete, Mature, Healthy, Sound, and Sane rather than the very often specific and misguided claim of Flawless."

And thanks to coach, I now see the light of the meaning of perfection in Masonry.

In my copy of Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia (1961) under 'perfect' it says, see Ashlar, perfect. And coach gave a further clear and rigorous explanation of the rough and perfect ashlar. So cool.


Thanks. It is most unfortunate that ignorant members assign a subjective and highly biased meaning upon the term "Perfect Ashlar".

If they had taken the time to explore Operative Masonic literature, they would quickly come to grasp and understand that a perfect ashlar is not a flawless ashlar; it's just a suitable ashlar for the builder's use and very likely contains flaws that would not interfere with the end use.

Equally unfortunate are how their ignorance impacts each generation of men coming through.

-------------
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Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: April/07/2016 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".

   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that? It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one. Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.





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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/08/2016 at 8:29am
Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".


   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that?


You've never met a combat veteran I take it?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one.


No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.


As I explained to droche in an above thread, the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Adept? - take this objectively but you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.




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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: coach
Date Posted: April/08/2016 at 9:27am
Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:


Originally posted by GrimoireA3 GrimoireA3 wrote:

 
"There are no atheists in foxholes".


   Really?  How could you, or anyone else possibly know that?


You've never met a combat veteran I take it?


Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

It is an assumption at best, and a foolish one.


No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes.

Originally posted by Adept? Adept? wrote:

Once again this is a glaring example of a religious belief attempting to be passed on to others as fact, with absolutely NO evidence to support the claim.


As I explained to droche in an above thread, the 'secular humanist' believes in God but without the religion. You are providing a glaring example of a 'rationalization' - a self satisfying but erroneous conclusion.

Adept? - take this objectively but you could further perfect your Ashlar by going to college and learn how to reason logically.

You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.

-------------
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Posted By: Adept?
Date Posted: April/08/2016 at 10:27am
GrimoireA3, 

First of all, I am a Veteran.  I think that settles that...LOL!

You said,
"No. It is not an assumption at all, but a time tested, proven, and accepted aphorism developed by combat veterans who lost their atheism in foxholes."

ok, so.. proven, and accepted can not be used in this manner.  It's either proven and factual, or it is accepted and believed.  It can not be both.  There is absolutely NO way to PROVE the quote/statement is factual.  To do so would require you to have been in every "foxhole", in every war, with every front line soldier throughout history, up to and including right now as you are reading this.  Impossible.  Period.  You can BELIEVE whatever you wish.

The origin of the quote is said to be as follows...

Origin[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes&action=edit&section=1" rel="nofollow - edit ]

The origin of the quotation is uncertain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-linglist-2" rel="nofollow - [2]  U. S. Military Chaplain  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thomas_Cummings" rel="nofollow - William Thomas Cummings  may have said it in a field sermon during the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bataan" rel="nofollow - Battle of Bataan  in 1942, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-3" rel="nofollow - [3]  though scholars have been unable to find a firsthand witness to the sermon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-4" rel="nofollow - [4]  Other sources credit  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_Colonel" rel="nofollow - Lieutenant Colonel  Warren J. Clear (or the anonymous sergeant he spoke with there), who was also at Bataan and published the usage in 1942; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-5" rel="nofollow - [5]  or Lieutenant Colonel  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Casey" rel="nofollow - William Casey . The phrase is often attributed to war correspondent  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Pyle" rel="nofollow - Ernie Pyle ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-6" rel="nofollow - [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-7" rel="nofollow - [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-8" rel="nofollow - [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-9" rel="nofollow - [9] however, no such source published prior to Pyle's death is known. It was also quoted by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954, American Legion Program. With slightly different wording, the statement appears much earlier in press reports dating from the end of the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I" rel="nofollow - First World War , while a similar concept has been sought in  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato" rel="nofollow - Plato 's  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_%28dialogue%29" rel="nofollow - Laws . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-linglist-2" rel="nofollow - [2]   

... but again, NO proof, so who knows.

Notable counterexamples[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes&action=edit&section=3" rel="nofollow - edit ]

During the news coverage of his death and subsequent  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonic_suspension" rel="nofollow - cryonic suspension , Hall of Fame baseball player and fighter pilot  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams" rel="nofollow - Ted Williams  was said to be an atheist, by his former teammate  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Pesky" rel="nofollow - Johnny Pesky . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-16" rel="nofollow - [16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-17" rel="nofollow - [17]  Richard Tillman, in giving the eulogy for his brother, former NFL player and soldier  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman" rel="nofollow - Pat Tillman , stated: "he's not religious." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-18" rel="nofollow - [18]  Tillman's atheism is discussed in a documentary about his life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-19" rel="nofollow - [19] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-20" rel="nofollow - [20]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Paulson" rel="nofollow - Philip Paulson , plaintiff in several of the lawsuits in the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad_cross_controversy" rel="nofollow - Mount Soledad cross controversy , was an atheist Vietnam combat veteran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-21" rel="nofollow - [21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Simpson_%28mountaineer%29" rel="nofollow - Joe Simpson , author of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touching_the_Void" rel="nofollow - Touching the Void , addresses the issue in the film adaptation of his nearly fatal climb up the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siula_Grande" rel="nofollow - Siula Grande  mountain. Referring to the moment when he lay at the bottom of a deep crevasse, dehydrated, alone, and with a broken leg, he states: '"I was totally convinced I was on my own, that no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout Catholic. I'd long since stopped believing in God. I always wondered if things really hit the fan, whether I would, under pressure, turn round and say a few Hail Marys and say 'Get me out of here'. It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and I really do think that when you die, you die, that's it, there's no afterlife." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-22" rel="nofollow - [22]

Several  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism" rel="nofollow - atheist  organizations object to the phrase. The  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Association_of_Atheists_%26_Freethinkers" rel="nofollow - Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers  has adopted the catch-phrase "Atheists in Foxholes" to emphasize that the original statement is just an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphorismus" rel="nofollow - aphorismus  and not a fact. The over 200 members of this organization publicly display their military service in order to show that there are atheists in foxholes, and on ships, and in planes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-23" rel="nofollow - [23]  The religious convictions of current U.S. military personnel are similar to those of the general American population, though studies suggest that members of the military are slightly less religious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-24" rel="nofollow - [24]  Department of Defense demographics show that "Atheist" is selected as a religious preference (0.55% or less than 1 percent of the total DoD force) more than non-Christian options such as Agnostic (0.12%), Hindu (0.07%), Buddhist (0.38%), Muslim (0.24%), and Jewish (0.33%). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-25" rel="nofollow - [25]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Morrow" rel="nofollow - James Morrow  has been quoted as saying "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes," as the mental state, or decisions, of an extremely frightened and desperate person can hardly be imagined to be more rational than those of a person in a calm state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-26" rel="nofollow - [26]  Due to its opposition to the phrase, the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_From_Religion_Foundation" rel="nofollow - Freedom From Religion Foundation  has erected a monument to "Atheists in Foxholes". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#cite_note-27" rel="nofollow - [27]


Finally, I don't need any further education in order to point out bull when I see it.

 I'm not rationalizing anything.  I do not need to rationalize your belief, or anyone else's for that matter.  You are the one who is attempting (and failing) to rationalize the quote and state it as a fact, when it is not.  You can attend all the MIT lectures you like, but until you remove all of your preconceived notions about things, set your religious beliefs aside, and enter the lecture with a mind that is open to further education, and enlightenment... then I'm afraid that it is MY BELIEF that you are utterly wasting your time.

    Thank you.




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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."


Posted By: BroScubaSteve
Date Posted: April/08/2016 at 1:21pm
Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.

It is not possible. The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


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Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13
Raised 6-27-13

Junior Deacon
F&AM GLNJ
32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ


Posted By: droche
Date Posted: April/08/2016 at 1:21pm
I don't think the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," like so many other sayings, was meant to be taken so literally. Of course it cannot be proven that every atheist who has experienced combat found God. Being a veteran too, I can see though what is intended by the saying and I never was in combat, but I became more religious as a result of my experiences in the service.

This thread about perfection has produced a lot of thought provoking and meaningful discussions and I don't want to see it degenerate to a point where it will have to be closed because of an argument over a frivolous point, but I can see it heading that way.


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:10am
Originally posted by coach coach wrote:

   You might want to study Logic further. Your responses are filled with Logical fallacies.


Thank you coach. I would appreciate a list of those logical fallacies I made since I take logic quite seriously any mistake I make can be a learning experience for me (to keep working on my ashlar).

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:15am
Originally posted by droche droche wrote:

I don't think the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," like so many other sayings, was meant to be taken so literally. Of course it cannot be proven that every atheist who has experienced combat found God. Being a veteran too, I can see though what is intended by the saying and I never was in combat, but I became more religious as a result of my experiences in the service.

This thread about perfection has produced a lot of thought provoking and meaningful discussions and I don't want to see it degenerate to a point where it will have to be closed because of an argument over a frivolous point, but I can see it heading that way.


Agreed.

Can a non-Mason have an ashlar to perfect?



P.S.:

U.S. Navy 1975-1979 active duty HT3/DV (2nd class diver). Honorable Discharge

Massachusetts Army National Guard, 1980-1982, active reserve Sp-4 combat medic 91b, Honorable Discharge

B.A. Psychology 1984 UMass/Boston
M.A. History    1987 UMass/Boston

PHIL 110 LOGIC 2002 Harvard Extension

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: GrimoireA3
Date Posted: April/09/2016 at 10:37am
Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Perfection can only be found in math. We can crunch the numbers to make a perfect square, but you can never physically lay that out without error.


Not perfection, but TRUTH can be found in Mathematics since Math requires 'PROOF'.

PHYSICS is not math, but uses mathematics to 'measure', and Physics doesn't care about 'proof' but results. [Please see the Feynman Lectures: The relation of Mathematics to Physics.]

That is an important distinction between Math & Physics, because Mathematics is a search for TRUTH by way of PROOFS, which is why Math is so important to Philosophy.

So Math and Physics (and Engineering) are not the same thing and have different goals to achieve. One is truth, the second might be perfection, but not the perfection define by coach or applied to the ashlar.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Your instruments will never measure a true foot and your angles will never be perfectly square.


YES,that is the problem with physics, engineering, architecture - but not with Mathematics. The mathematician will disregard any equation that doesn't have a PROOF. The Physicist is not so fussy.

Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

The goal is to be as accurate as possible with the correct precision.


And that is the goal of Physics, Engineering, Architecture, Chemistry, Biology - but Mathematics demands 100% accuracy all the time.


Originally posted by BroScubaSteve BroScubaSteve wrote:

Edited: I see this thread is not where I left it.


Seems to happen a lot on this forum?

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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!


Posted By: goomba
Date Posted: April/09/2016 at 5:15pm
Math does not demand nor require 100%. It to is a system of "being close". Take the example of pi. We use 3.14 as a general rule but this is not pi. Being that pi does not end every calculation no matter how far out you go with pi is an approximation and not 100% accurate.

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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF

Living in the DC area.



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