Perfection - How is it attained? |
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GrimoireA3
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Posted: March/26/2016 at 4:36pm |
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Perfection: what is it? And can it be attained or is it an impossible abstraction to achieve? Thanx!
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Adept?
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Impossible to achieve. Perfection comes only from the source. It is unattainable to mankind.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
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What is that source? |
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Adept?
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All matter is energy condensed. The source of that energy is what many have termed "god" The true knowledge of which is inconceivable. Believe whatever you will.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
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It is a word that has two distinct meanings. One meaning focuses upon flawlessness; this is what most in a specific faith tend to be drawn into and adhere to. The other focuses upon maturity, sanity, soundness, healthiness, completeness, or (the one I like most) suitability; and it is what far too many tend to avoid. I lean toward the latter focus. Why? Because it is the focus of about 80 to 90 percent of the words in the Bible mistakenly translated to he word "perfect" that are thus taken to mean "flawless". This is purposeful. I'll leave it to you as to why this was done this way.
That depends totally upon the meaning you assign to the word. When you are biased toward believing it to mean "flawless", it shall appear to be unattainable. That is an insane trap and a good one to keep people in unnecessary shame and in hopeless activities. When you are biased toward believing it means "maturity, sanity, soundness, healthiness, completeness, or suitability", it shall appear to be attainable. Of course, if you get into the mind set that one never stops a process, then you shall focus on the end and not the journey and that insane trap is equally damning. However, if you were to realize a mature, sane, sound, healthy, complete, or suitable mindset as to the standard that you use to compare yourself, you'd realize the insane trap and merely dismiss it as having nothing to do with the reality you're engaging in and ideal you're comparing yourself to.
You're most welcome. I use this question a lot: Would you rather depend upon a flawlessly immature person or a flawed mature, sane, sound, healthy, complete, or suitable person? You define what "perfect" means to you and you shall suffer or be blessed accordingly. http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/12/perfect-in-sanity.html Edited by coach - March/27/2016 at 6:59am |
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droche
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What is your definition of "perfection?"
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droche
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Actually you did ask what it was so I withdraw the question. I don't really know what it is, but I don't think it is an abstraction. I do think it is impossible to attain while on this Earth. As the Bible says, we are all sinners; even if one does not believe in the Bible I think the statement is true. I think we will leave this Earth imperfect beings and perhaps perfection will attained in what is to come. Who knows?
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WBScott
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I only know one person who was perfect and he died for our sins 2016 years ago.
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Wentzville (MO) Lodge #46 - PM
Pride of the West (MO) Lodge #179 - PM (twice) Pauldingville (MO) Lodge #11 - Secretary Warrenton (MO) Lodge #609 - Secretary Past DDGM - 25th Masonic District |
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Adept?
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Umm...err...uh... No comment.
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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coach
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This is an article of faith, not fact.
If you are alluding to Who I think you are, I believe He taught us to take responsibility for our actions; not try to outrun them and allow someone else to suffer for our shortcomings. He lead by example; so few follow it.
I believe your math is off. Edited by coach - March/27/2016 at 10:52am |
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GrimoireA3
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Thank you Adept?, I've never heard of the primary event, or the singularity, or the Great Author of the universe, or any description of the Godhead referred to as 'the source' before; not in any philosophy or comparative religion course I've taken. So I'm glad I asked the question because I learned something new. Now, this formulates a new question, based on logic: the 'if/then' conditional. IF perfection is impossible for man to become, THEN, how does this affect the process of making 'good men better'?. |
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coach
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It shouldn't affect in one iota. When a man is improved, he is bettered. |
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GrimoireA3
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Hi Droche, I'll answer this. When I began Judo in 1968 we kids had to memorize (in both English & Japanese) that the ultimate goal of Judo as defined by the founder Dr. Jigoro Kano in 1882 was: "The harmonious development and eventual perfection of human character." And the practice of Judo provided a physical and tangible method of achieving that perfection. Which I did not doubt one bit then, or now. Now - how do I define perfection? The removal of all vices from your value system. I practiced the Judo value system all my life, including today: no booze, no drugs, no junk food, no promiscuity, no irresponsible behavior, keep your mouth shut, no smoking, be polite even under duress, have the ability to put thought into action, be stoic. The consequence is all this will make you a dull boy. So moderation in all things might be the compromise. So my definition of perfection for man is the willing removal of all vice from one's value system. |
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GrimoireA3
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@Coach,
Thank you for that great answer, and the time and effort and thought behind it. Great learning experience for me. |
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coach
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What is your definition of vice? |
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droche
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Grimoire,
The removal of vice, however one defines it, from one's life is very laudable, don't get me wrong, however, will even the removal of vice remove sin (however one defines that) from a person? I am generally considered pretty straight-laced, to a fault, by some, but I still sin every day, in my estimation. I don't think I'll ever attain perfection in this life, perhaps not even in what is to come. There is a teaching in the Scottish Rite that we strive for perfection. That implies to me that we will not ever attain it on this Earth. Jesus Christ is considered perfection by many, but he is also considered by believers that he was not of this world. Even Him, when he drove the money changers out of the Temple in a fit of anger, was he being perfect? If I had done that I would look back and say, "Sheesh, I lost it." I don't know how He felt about it but... it seems to me to be out of character for Him.
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GrimoireA3
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Hi Coach, I actually anticipated that question. Vice is the catalyst for entropy. Any action or viewpoint or ethic that causes harm or degrades you and your surroundings is a vice. A sort of second law of thermodynamics for ethics. One suggestion I read in the Freemason literature which I really liked was "you have a moral obligation to improve yourself." So true. A nice maxim for perfection. The self-aware person knows the difference between right and wrong, and emphasizes the positives and eliminates the negatives. My problem is that while I believe human character perfection can be achieved, but how does one tell when they've arrived? This is what makes it a continuous quest. |
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coach
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1) Why is that a problem? 2) Arrive? Why must it be a destination? |
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GrimoireA3
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Hi Droche, Excellent rebuttal. And I purposely used my Judo experience to avoid religion and provide a secular source of ethics for the achievement of perfection. Theologians refer to this as 'secular humanism' which seems to be replacing religious ethics amongst developed nations. Now for the religious view. Sin. According to the faith system I am most familiar, Roman Catholicism or more accurate - Western Rite Catholicism - the least number of sins I commit, the better. Kinda like a demerit system, and no Catholic knows he's going to get into heaven or heck until judgement. Perfection for a man is not even a consideration for a Catholic! Of the Holy Trinity only God the father is perfect (not Jesus). God made the angels 'perfect' yet Jesus was the word made flesh, imperfections and all. Of the four Holy Gospels (I'm keeping this in a religious vein) Matthew saw Jesus as a teacher(?); Mark saw Jesus as a priest(?); Luke saw Jesus as God (?); and John saw Jesus as a man (?). But Jesus is seen as flawed in all four Catholic interpretations, i.e., not perfect. The Protestants and 'Christians' - all 30,000 denominations in America - interpret differently. So there is no argument for perfection if you adopt the religious viewpoint of sin being a stumbling block to perfection. And that requires a 'personal' God and not the cosmological God as viewed by Deism. |
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GrimoireA3
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1. It's a problem because you might take perfection for granted, and without the realization that you've arrived at perfection, you might stop striving for it and lapse back into vice (entropy). Neutralizing all you've achieved. 2. Arrive? Why must it be a destination? Because mainstream philosophy and history have proven that time and human events is teological (linear as in a straight line), therefore has a beginning and an end - thus a destination. All 'mainstream' academics accept this linear model and reject the non-teological view of history repeating itself or of time looping around itself. The historian Toynbee proposed the thesis that history is repetitive and repeats itself, but was marginalized for his efforts (along with the cryptozoologists and the flat earth society). Time travel is feasible according to physicists (an MIT lecture I sat in on during IAP) but only forward or backward, not circular. So a 'destination' is both a physical and metaphysical actuality. A 'factual actual'. |
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GrimoireA3
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Thanks Coach, Yes bettered, but not perfected. Cannot good men become better than 'better', or is that the end of it? But then again, is perfection the enemy of 'better'? Is striving for perfection utopic? |
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GrimoireA3
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Hi WBScott, I noticed Mastermason.com has a White Shrine Forum for Christian Master Masons and Family Members. As I explained above, I am a 'cradle Catholic' born into the Roman Catholic faith - and I state that because Catholicism is the religion I am most familiar. Now I am a very lapse Catholic having severe issues with the practice of my faith. Again, as I described above us Catholics don't see Christ as perfect, but very flawed during his ministry on Earth. Yet in my secular empirical opinion human perfection is attainable, though on a case by case individual level. So there are two routes I see: I. Perfection can be achieved based on a secular ethics made possible by a faraway 'cosmological God as proposed by the Deists. 'OR' II. Sin prevents man from ever achieving perfection because of a close-up personal God shepherding his children, causing the to strive for but never achieving perfection, as practiced n all of Christiandom. Was denken Sie? |
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droche
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Grimoire,
I highly suspect you used a secular example of perfection because you didn't want to raise any hackles, but really, if we take the spiritual, the concept of a higher form of being out of the equation, can we even begin to conceive the concept of perfection? It would seem to me that if we take that out of the equation, we are headed in the opposite direction of perfection. I know a lot will disagree with me but I take comfort in Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Soviet author who lived under an atheistic regime. When he fled the Soviet Union and came to this country, he said that a big reason why the Soviet system failed was because it lacked a spiritual basis. This was a system that boasted Utopia for the people. When he said that, many of his fans left him in droves. But he lived it first-hand and I think he was on to something.
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Adept?
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I'd call that the opinion of a religious person who felt he; and the people, were in need of such a system. Historically speaking... there has been copious amounts of torture, murder, and outright war in the name of god/religion. One group against another group... because they believe different things. It's not just history... look at current events. It's sickening. Why can't we all just coexist together in harmony? Live and let live. It's a pretty simple concept really.... |
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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goomba
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Perfection isn't a thing it is a concept.
Take flying a perfect anvil would be useless. The idea of perfection changes based on the situation so we can never reach it. So the perfect man may still fall short in numerous given situations because his perfection wasn't suited for it. Even morals there is not perfect answer. I asked people is it wrong to push ladies, most would say yes. However, what if the lady was about the be killed and you pushing her saved her life. Life is so fluid that a set standard is a guide towards betterment but not perfection. This and 10 bucks will get you a fancy coffee drink at Starbucks. Side note: The Bible doesn't talk about heck it talks about hell. This is just a personal aggravation. It's not sinful for a Christian to talk about things within our Holy Book. |
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MM, RAM, RSM, KT, KM, SRICF
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coach
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Would that not once again depend upon how you define the word. One may never realize flawlessness, but if we work at it, we can achieve maturity, wholeness, soundness, sanity, completeness and suitability. That is not a problem, unless it is not worked toward.
I believe all this dogma purposefully derails the perfecting process and places it as a destination mindset rather than a manner and engaged in journey. If you are saying your destination mindset is a must based upon mainstream teachings, then you have lost your will to the captures. |
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coach
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A1: Yes. A2: Once again, it is not a destination. It is a process embraced by far too few.
No. Perfection is a process that brings about betterment. Again, it all depends upon how you define the word.
No. It is the character of a person who aspires toward personal improvement, one step at a time. |
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GrimoireA3
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And so is 'better' just a concept, not a thing. Good, better, best are gradations of 'perfection'. And they are ideas not things just like numbers, they are concepts and not tangible objects. So how does one make "good men better" if 'good' and 'better' are not things but just concepts, just like 'perfection' is just a concept? Don't get me wrong. I have witnessed good men becoming better dozens of times in my life. Character improvement is the purpose of psychologists, social workers, prison reform, Boy Scouts, etc. etc. And the fact that Freemasonry claims a purpose of making good men better is an attraction for me to the Craft. It is my humble opinion that you can go a step further than good, better, best and actually reach perfection.
Yes, perfection is subjective. As I mentioned in a previous thread, how does one know when they've arrived at perfection? So perfection is determined by the system which strives for it. How does one know when a good man has become better??? What's the criteria for betterment, as opposed to perfection? It is a subjective condition.
I think that is using morality in two distinct different applications.
Again, why can one become 'better' but not perfect?
All opinions are valuable. Thank you for yours. I MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY, BUT I'LL FIGHT TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT. -- Emily Beecher Stowe.
Yes, thank you goomba. I was trying not to be profane. |
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GrimoireA3
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I was trying to be both objective and give a neutral secular example before going into religious explanations, which can become emotional.
But I haven't taken a higher form of being out of the equation. Secular humanists believe there is a God. But they don't adhere to any religious doctrine of morals or dogma or laws. Religion does not have a monopoly on God, spirituality, nor morality. Pagans, Satanists, Wiccans, Voodooists, heretics, and their ilk can be quite spiritual, though you might disagree with that spirituality. And I have yet to mention atheism. Deists are not atheists. The atheist claims that God has never existed in the first place, and that man and the universe came about through natural physical and chemical processes randomly over vast eons of time not through the exertions of any God. The Deist believes God exists, God created man and the universe, but then God left and man is now on his own devices. God still exists, but he's far away in some other universe, galaxy, or dimension doing his thing. That is called the 'Cosmological God'.
Communism and socialism are untenable (doesn't work when put into practice) for several very good economic and social reasons, atheism being one of them. |
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GrimoireA3
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Its really not a matter of semantics. The word 'perfection' has already been defined. Synonyms like 'flawless' are not a redefinition but a literary option.
Again, flawless and perfection are not the same thing, they are synonyms but not the same definition.
Nothing 'dogmatic' about proven and accepted hypothesis by mainstream academia. Coach - You don't want to marginalize yourself with revisionisms.
My 'destination mindset' is based on accepted and proven teology by academia as taught in universities and has withstood peer review. I do not know what you mean by "the captures"?? I am as open minded as the next guy and receptive to new ideas as long as those new ideas pass peer review, and are clear and rigorous. Again, I could use an explanation of 'captures'?? Thank you. |
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GrimoireA3
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That is beautiful. Scottish rite is right (pun intended) Academic fence sitting is common within any ideological or political systems of thought. America is 'striving' for democracy for example, as a convenient way of avoiding commitment. Since I am not a Freemason I am not violating any code of ethics by contradicting the Scottish Rite - I think they're wrong and we can become perfect. Again, that is just a strong opinion. |
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GrimoireA3
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Thank you. It is journey taken one step at a time, from good to better to best, that one arrives at the destination of perfection. |
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GrimoireA3
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Here's the phenomenon: If there was no need of religion for the human condition, then it wouldn't exist. Religion does provide a need to some people (but not all people).
Yes, because Church & State were not separated. The American patriots separated church & state in 1789, yet before that your religion was your politics and nationality. In the 1600s the Massachusetts Bay Colony was a religious colony and Cotton Mather held trial on you for heresy. Here in Boston in 1640s Mary Dwyer was hanged in Boston Common for being a Quaker, and dozens of Baptists were also hanged in the common (for being Baptist). In 1690s Salem a hundred and ten men & women (and a dog) were hanged for witch craft. So you don't have to go too far back in time or distance to find people being killed for religious reasons (equal to sedition or betrayal or being a traitor). The six Holy Inquisitions, i.e. counter-reformation, was a much a political event (like firing squads for traitors) to prevent the spread of Protestantism over Europe as it was to stifle heresy. Today in 2016 there are religious adherents who still do not separate church from state. They practice 'canon law' (religious law) like Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, and the Vatican. So that is why secular nations like the USA (common law, not canon law) and Europe are getting whacked by people who do not separate their religion from their race or politics or nation. Quite the motivation. So how does one eliminate religion???
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -- Socrates As long as violence or war serves as political leverage for national policy, there will be no harmony in our life time. |
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coach
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I disagree! It IS a matter of Semantics, as in: The meaning that YOU are assigning to the word. The defining YOU choose determines the meaning. You choose "flawless" as your definition. I understand the meaning only AFTER you assign that definition to what you convey.
yup
It is when it is marginalized by those who do not understand the basis of their work.
Me? I don't get involved in such nonsense.
It is still your choice to be captivated by it.
Once you embrace it and support it, you're captured by it and by choice.
Okay Edited by coach - March/28/2016 at 10:49am |
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coach
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Understood. In the context I referred to this originally, it is not. That's the definition I chose to assign to it. But it is clear that you are claiming that it must be a destination and that it cannot possibly be an engaged in process.
You are mistaken if you believe we are engaged in a debate. I am not debating, although you may be. I am sharing my view. What you view as a "redefining", I view as an assignment of an already accepted and promulgated definition. You don't have to accept that assignment, but it is an accepted definition.
In the context I made comment upon initially, it is not a destination. It can be a destination, depending on the meaning you assign to it, but it isn't necessarily one. Out of context though, it's just non-sense tail chasing. Edited by coach - March/28/2016 at 11:18am |
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GrimoireA3
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Thanks for that explanation. Goes into my notebook. |
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BroScubaSteve
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Edited by BroScubaSteve - March/28/2016 at 2:52pm |
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Adept?
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"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."
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GrimoireA3
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Is that true under Masonic teachings? That the employer has a special affinity towards the perfect? |
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BroScubaSteve
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Moral Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. It is an opinion unlike the scientific definition of perfection.
You have to remember that the tools given to a Mason are for him to work on himself and himself only. With that understanding, a man's pursuit to better himself masonically This will absolutely cause a differing opinion in what someone considers perfection from a moral standpoint. Men may agree in principle that they have approached perfection, but there is no way to actually touch and or tell if they actually got there. Edited by BroScubaSteve - March/29/2016 at 9:02am |
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Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
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coach
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Sorry. That's a secret. |
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droche
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I'm not sure what they mean by "employer." To the best of my knowledge, there is no Masonic teaching that directly refers to an employer. My interpretation of Masonic teachings as would regard an employer would be to be straightforward and honest with an employer, and give him a fair day's work. Of course, one should also expect an employer, especially if he is a Mason, to be straightforward and honest with his employees and give them a fair day's wages.
This discussion of perfection reminds me of calculus. You know, a function approaches "0" but never quite reaches it. I think it is the same with perfection. One case where the spiritual meets the physical in this universe.
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BroScubaSteve
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Initiated 4-22-13
Passed 5-29-13 Raised 6-27-13 Junior Deacon F&AM GLNJ 32°AASR NMJ, Southern Valley of NJ |
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droche
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I suspected your reply was in jest, but I wasn't sure if Grimoire thought it was. He seemed to be asking a serious question and I did not want him to be mislead.
My reply was not in jest. And I can see how my reply was imperfect. i should have said how the limit of a function approaches "0." I was waiting for math experts to get me on that,
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GrimoireA3
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You can tell me. I'm perfect. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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coach
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Sorry. You might be perfect along other lines, but if you want to know Masonic teachings, become a Mason. |
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GrimoireA3
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Touche' - perfect answer! So true! Thanks again coach. Now I must purchase one of your books. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
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Great answer! The 'nexus' - the connection. Could it be as brought out by droche that the definition of perfect is the nexus between spiritual and physical? Wow, you Masons are smart. |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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GrimoireA3
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Good for you. Seems to be the bottom line. Example, when a Buddhist monk seeks enlightenment he studies the Sutras or meditates over an assigned paradox (a 'koan'). Then he must pass a verbal test in front of several senior 'Enlightened' monks by correctly and creatively answering several pointed questions about their faith, or solving the 'koan'. The determination that one has become 'enlightened' is purely subjective, based on the opinions of the review board. So it seems with becoming morally 'perfect'.
I think you captured the essence of this dilemma. Good for you! [/QUOTE] |
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Please Note: I am not a Mason. And also, I am not an anti-Mason!
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coach
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<snicker> You knew it was coming. Let me know what is your interest BEFORE you purchase so that I can recommend one of the 11 that are available. Edited by coach - March/31/2016 at 9:04am |
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